The Growth of Atheism and What it Means for Our Future

reply to post by iterationzero

Ok I guess I should of specified "our lesser edumacationized" pre-participles. Any way.

No doubt that if you ban religion you have to ban all religion.
Also don't we have a bad enough idenity crisis going on this planet already?

"Despite the many changes that have rippled through American society over the last 6 ½ decades, belief in God as measured in this direct way has remained high and relatively stable."

www.gallup.com...

The latest responses to this question, obtained in a May Gallup Poll, lead to several conclusions:
Seventy-three percent of Americans are classic true believers, convinced that God exists beyond a doubt.
Eighty-seven percent of Americans are basic believers in the existence of God, saying either that they are convinced that God exists or that God probably exists and they have only a little doubt that this is the case.
A slightly larger group of 92% of Americans can be classified in a group that tilts toward the existence of God, stating that at the least they think God probably exists, even though some have a lot of doubt about it.
Only 3% of Americans can be considered to be hard-core atheists, convinced that God does not exist.
Another 4% are agnostics of a sort, leaning toward a belief that God does not exist, but not sure that this is the case beyond a doubt.


www.gallup.com...

reply to post by nicolee123nd


I think that you have a great many ideals about an athiestic society. I am an open-minded person, I believe that whatever you believe, is right. I will also never make anybody believe (through behavior or speech), what I believe.

I just have one question for the athiest, though:

Does an athiest value human life? And if so, where does this value originate?

I think that the answer to this question resides in everyone, be they athiest or not; everyone has an individual appreciation to the answer to that question.

And I agree with you, athiesm is on the rise, my worry is where it's moral compass is located, and if that compass even exists. Societies tend to share a common moral compass, otherwise, individuals or bands of individuals would differ and behave based on a different moral compass than other individuals/bands of individuals. You could have a nation (or at least a land mass) with several different tribes with different moral compass points. Law is based on this common moral compass. Remember this.

Originally posted by franklin555

And I agree with you, athiesm is on the rise, my worry is where it's moral compass is located, and if that compass even exists. Societies tend to share a common moral compass, otherwise, individuals or bands of individuals would differ and behave based on a different moral compass than other individuals/bands of individuals. You could have a nation (or at least a land mass) with several different tribes with different moral compass points. Law is based on this common moral compass. Remember this.

Nietzshe worried about this too:

en.wikipedia.org...

"The death of God is a way of saying that humans are no longer able to believe in any such cosmic order since they themselves no longer recognize it. The death of God will lead, Nietzsche says, not only to the rejection of a belief of cosmic or physical order but also to a rejection of absolute values themselves — to the rejection of belief in an objective and universal moral law, binding upon all individuals. In this manner, the loss of an absolute basis for morality leads to nihilism. "

reply to post by iterationzero


You are splitting hairs. This reminds me of one of those answers where you just try to confuse the question so much, round and round, and round, till the person who asked it, is confused and walks away. So now we have Agnostic Atheists, and Agnostic Thiests? Give me a break.

Originally posted by nicolee123nd
Without religion (Christianity in particular)

Now hold up there... Christianity in particular? I beg to differ! Christianity is no worse than any of the other games in town - of course, it's no better, either. Now we in America and Europe can thump on about how restrictive Christianity is to our cultural and scientific developments, and that's true; But India is having the same problem with Hinduism, Israel's running into some friction with the hardline variety of Judaism, and do we even want to talk about Southwest Asia's Islam issues? And it's easy enough to just imagine Buddhism as this sirt of "non-religious religion" like they have out in Hollywood, but that one's been holding people back for a damn long time, too (really, the notion that if you end up in a bad life, it's because you deserve it and shouldn't attempt to change it, is probably MORE harmful than anything out of Abrahamism)

There's no reason to single out this or that religion as being "in particular" - they're all detrimental to our development as a society.

There's no debating that America is becoming less and less religious. Do you think this is good or bad? What would you say is up for the future?

I don't think we're actually becoming less religious. While Americans have ALWAYS adored false displays of piety (usually feigning shock over someone else's sex life) the fact is we've never been that religious as a nation. it's thus not that there are more atheists so much as the stigma against atheists is going down, and people are "coming out," so to speak. If you had to ask me, I'd bet the non-religious in this country outnumber the sincerely religious by half. It's just a question of them admitting so and facing the social repercussions of it.

reply to post by Nomadmonkey


Whats next? I am 1/2 Agnostic 1/2 Theists?
1/4 Theists 1/4 Agnostic 1/4 Agnostic and 1/4 Theistmonoagnostcal?

Originally posted by franklin555
Does an athiest value human life? And if so, where does this value originate?

Absolutely. it originates from simple empathy for other people; I've cut myself, and I know it hurts, so why would I want to hurt someone else by cutting htem?

Are you saying that without religion, you would be a mass-murdering cannibal-rapist or something?

And I agree with you, athiesm is on the rise, my worry is where it's moral compass is located, and if that compass even exists. Societies tend to share a common moral compass, otherwise, individuals or bands of individuals would differ and behave based on a different moral compass than other individuals/bands of individuals. You could have a nation (or at least a land mass) with several different tribes with different moral compass points. Law is based on this common moral compass. Remember this.

Human societies tend to have common moral absolutes; murder is bad, theft is bad, that sort of thing. Interestingly, in those societies where these these absolutes are violated, the justification for doing so is almost always religious in nature - it's religion that tells you mass murder is okay, it's religion that tells you rape is okay, it's religion that tells you theft and arson and all these other crimes against other people are okay - because those "other people" aren't actually people, according to your religion, just as you're not really people according to theirs.

reply to post by franklin555

And I agree with you, athiesm is on the rise, my worry is where it's moral compass is located, and if that compass even exists. Societies tend to share a common moral compass, otherwise, individuals or bands of individuals would differ and behave based on a different moral compass than other individuals/bands of individuals.

Hope you don't mind, but it's late and I'm heading off to bed, so I'm going to crib some info from infidels.org:

If you define morality as obedience to God, then of course atheists are less moral as they don't obey any God. But usually when one talks of morality, one talks of what is acceptable ("right") and unacceptable ("wrong") behavior within society.

Humans are social animals, and to be maximally successful they must cooperate with each other. This is a good enough reason to discourage most atheists from "antisocial" or "immoral" behavior, purely for the purposes of self-preservation.

Many atheists behave in a "moral" or "compassionate" way simply because they feel a natural tendency to empathize with other humans. So why do they care what happens to others? They don't know, they simply are that way.

I think you'd find that the moral compass for a theist (assuming we're talking about one of the "Golden Rule" flavors of theism) is essentially indistinguishable from the moral compass for an atheist. Same basic rules and behaviors, just the justification for one of them includes God and the other one doesn't.

reply to post by Nomadmonkey

You are splitting hairs. This reminds me of one of those answers where you just try to confuse the question so much, round and round, and round, till the person who asked it, is confused and walks away. So now we have Agnostic Atheists, and Agnostic Thiests? Give me a break.

Theism/atheism relates strictly to a belief in god(s) or a lack of belief, gnosticism/agnosticism relates strictly to certainty or lack of certainty. None of the concepts from one pair are mutually exclusive to the concepts of the other. It's no different than the oversimplified Left/Right paradigm of politics in the United States - it's assumed that you have to be both fiscally and socially Liberal or fiscally and socially conservative. It completely ignores the fact that there are people who are fiscally conservative/socially liberal and vice versa.

Originally posted by iterationzero
reply to post by Nomadmonkey

 

Oh! Boy! Here we go again. Take an Athiest for example.. He/She has faith that there is no Creator. Now take a Theist for example. He/She has faith that there is a Creator. How are these two "Clowns" any different? They both believe in something they cant prove.

Not exactly. Atheists have a lack of belief in gods, not a belief that there are no gods. It's a subtle difference but an important one.

Gnostic theist = 100% certain of the existence of god(s).
Gnostic atheist = 100% certain of the lack of existence of god(s).
Agnostic theist = believes in god(s), but doesn't claim to know with 100% certainty.
Agnostic atheist = lacks a belief in god(s), but doesn't claim to know with 100% certainty.

This is Insane. I am sorry. A Gnostic theist is 100% certain? WTF does the Gnostic part even need to be there for then? Same with all your other B.S.

Sorry.. I need to call a spade a spade here.

This is B.S.

edit on 12-6-2011 by Nomadmonkey because: (no reason given)

reply to post by iterationzero


Not at all. What it means is we are sick and tired of Political 2 faced B.S speech. Splitting hairs and trying to make it sound like two different sides of the same coin.

You can't just take religion away from people. For a lot of people and mankind it 's about Idenity.
Mankind is already clueless of where he comes from? Where he is going? Why he is here? But at least religion
gives us some roots to our past. You people just want to toss it all? Do the Spaniards and Aztecs ring a bell ?
A lot of knowledge has been lost in the past. Because of attitudes just like this one.

reply to post by randyvs


I agree, it is a personal thing. but we have chosen to discuss it here. The thing I do not like is..We start at a 50/50 point, and some like to drag it down to splitting hairs and make a 1/32 type thing. There is 3 choices IMHO. YES/NO/I DONT KNOW. To break it down any more is silly.

Originally posted by randyvs

You can't just take religion away from people. For a lot of people and mankind it 's about Idenity.
Mankind is already clueless of where he comes from? Where he is going? Why he is here? But at least religion
gives us some roots to our past. You people just want to toss it all? Do the Spaniards and Aztecs ring a bell ?
A lot of knowledge has been lost in the past. Because of attitudes just like this one.

While I can't condone the Spaniards' destruction of the Aztec's history (or those of the Maya or Inca) I wholeheartedly support their destruction of the Aztec religion.

After all, it centered around mass murder in order to keep the sun from going out. Now as you and I both know, the sun isn't going to go out, at least not within any human timeline. So in the end, the Aztecs were just slaughtering people for no good reason.

I say good on the Spanish for stamping it out. Maybe it wasn't much of an improvement, but it WAS an improvement.

reply to post by randyvs


aztecs and spanish,

imagine if we found a civilization like them today!

what would we make of it? wowow!

i am talking about their religious practices, btw!

i can picture them in airports, lol!

eta; imagine the threads here!

i think everyone should be exposed to religion, it only helps with their decision to follow or change or ignore later in life when confident enough to decide for themselves.

reply to post by iterationzero


Ill try to explain it more clearly. its clear that you don't understand me, but i was vague.

If demons are real, they feed on negative energies to mantain their power. The same way good gods feed on prayers, faith, and good deeds. If they are real. Now, It doesnt matter if you believe in these evil spirits or not, they can still feed off you, whether you a god-fearing christian, a buddhist, a satanist, an atheist, agnostic, whatever. Beings from another dimension wouldnt care what a mortal human's beliefs are.

That would lead me to believe that if there were ever a rapture, when the good souls are taken from the earth, even an atheist could be taken. I'm in no way saying that "atheist are evil", I'm just saying the may be more apt, given the right situation, to cause lots of problems, for better or worse. but i'm gunna stay bias on that.

A person who believes in god can create negative energy, any human can. any time they harm another person, or they do something that has negative effects later on, it would create that energy. And some evil beings feed on it, and know who to use it against the serfs, it seems. just look at the Papacy.

Ill say it again, I don't think atheists are evil. i don't think they are possessed either. Im saying people, in general, may not be aware that they are, when they are, if they are.

Let me give you a scenario. Of a possible future event, purely made up.

Im sure you know what a "band wagon" is. And i've been hearing Some "there is no god" messages in music lately, teenage music. Like a song called "Morte et Dabo" by Asking Alexandria, The first one that caught my attention.So Teenagers listen to this stuff, And it gets in there head. before they have even tried to acknowledge the existence of some other worldly being, and they settle on "there is no god". Later On, some guy comes along and he announces the first church of atheism ( i know that makes sense, but maybe its not called a church) Either way, maybe these kids with that idea of atheism flock this guy, and he preaches the veiw of the world from the eyes of the atheist. Atheism just became a religion. As much of a contradiction as it is, its just an example.

Maybe one day the Guy says to all his people "Hey, lets go Burn down all the churches". Guaranteed, More then half of these brainwashed sheep cheer for the Guy, and take up torches and follow him to the ends of the earth. Its happened before, Hitler comes to mind. I would hope that at least a quarter of his followers would Think "hey, thats not right". and leave that "church" and never come back. And No, none of this apply specifically to atheism. You could ad-lib that out if you wanted.

As for morality, I'm not sure where it comes from, But im Certain that a person who worships a good, just god would more on the good side than a satanist (bad side). By that logic, i supposed a atheist would be on the "Fringe", right in the middle, if not more on one side than the other. they could go either way, as anybody could.

After all this i am inclined to change my opinion of Atheism, and i thank you for that. It seems any belief can be used as a weapon against people. As for my beliefs being LaVayan, Maybe, Satanic, no way in hell.

reply to post by nicolee123nd

If you ever get into a religious conversation with an atheist, at one point the person almost always says "I was raised Christian..." How come you never hear a person say "I was born an atheist..."? This simple notion is evidence that the population of atheists is growing -- religious people are changing their minds! In America, studies showed that 8% of people were atheist/agnostic/nonreligious in 1990 source That means that the non-faithful population has skyrocketed to almost double in 18 years! But, why? In my opinion, it has a lot to do with the less restraint that Christianity has on people nowadays (in America, at least). It's now less taboo to doubt God, compared to 60 years ago where if your thoughts even wondered you'd be damned to Hell.

I wouldn't say that at all, but I will agree that in the 50s people did not have the resources that have today to study and research the origins of Christianity and the Bible, as I, and many others have done. It has been my own experience that an Atheist is a lot better read, and a lot more knowledgeable about the Bible than any Christian, even a Christian minister. I just a few days ago got into a religious debate with a preacher who lives right down the road from me. He started out pretty good, got to give your heart and soul to Jesus or go to Hell routine, but when it got down to cases, he was left frantically leaving through his book like a madman looking for answers that were not in there.

Face it, there's too much evidence and nothing to disprove evolution.

True, very true. And also the Bible, especially the New Testament has come under heavy fire of late, but like I said, resources are now available to most everyone that can prove most of the NT wrong, or just made up to suit an agenda. And yes, I was raised, partially, anyway, to be a Christian. My mother always thought I was a demon from Hell and really wanted me to be a preacher. I guess she is now roasting in her own little Hell right now.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Well who knows what knowledge was lost in the burning of the Aztec codexes. The writing was recently deciphered but if you guys are ok with lost knowledge. That's cool I guess. History repeats itself good or bad.

reply to post by nicolee123nd


Well first and foremost evolution does nothing to dispute creationism. Evolution is a fact, and evolution can VERY MUCH exist in the creationist's blueprint. It is a process of diversity, not a process of an entire universe coming to be from one theorized point of small existence (or no existence.) I very much know God exists and I have no doubts about evolution... it's rather funny to see atheists still use that as a debate crutch.

Now I agree that it is healthy to have some doubts in mind... How can you become more soundly minded towards something if you don't think about all angles around it? I've thought about everything away from listening to the words I hear whenever I have the patience to seek God and it helps me figure out existence and spirituality.

Now following it completely? I would be careful. If you honestly seek the word and existence you will find Him. There are no doubts, only your own you want to have.

Also as for advancing in science and whatever else... that is not ignored with real Christianity. It is true that much of religion has been diluted through the years towards many peoples' different interpretations of the Bible, and that is a natural thing. The Bible is meant to be a personal journey to find God and let him speak to you in your mind. Most of the time people leave "religion" because of other people, not because of God himself. If you are properly reading and truly seeking you will have no problems and you will see the immense love that exists... and you will find your true purposes. Science is fact, evolution is fact (observable, physical fact) and these all exist fine with the creation coming from God, and I don't know why people think that is impossible. Lmao.

I would encourage more people to go on a personal journey towards the Lord, because that is where you will find truth. You will hear many different renditions of what you should be with any religion, but if you do not dedicate your own time to seek you will find nothing but other opinions that may be the wrong answer. Don't be lead around like a sheep by other people if you plan on developing your spiritual self. It is nice to have fellowship of course, but you need a personal relationship as well.

Unfortunately organized religion is giving Christ a bad wrap, and all people listen to mainly is the grapevine instead of personal verification. It's like the Windows Vista syndrome, it came out on terribly equipped computers, word got out and everyone thought it was garbage until the end... even on computers with four gigabytes worth of memory where Vista performed greatly. Pick the book up yourself, and ask God to talk to you. But keep reading and learning without giving up.

You can really make yourself a better person all while pursuing science with no contradictions, and that is the bottom line. I love science just as much as anybody else... I research philosophy and outer space like any other enthusiast and I love the news coming from those areas! But anyone can agree that you feel that energy that science cannot put their thumb on yet. The funny thing is science is searching for the same thing religion has basically set forth on for many many years.