Quantum Teleportation takes the next step. Now functional

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

Well...I did say more than that, to explain why we probably won't see physical human teleportation anytime soon. That has no bearing on quantum teleportation of basic information, or quantum computing. I'd be surprised if quantum computers weren't available to consumers in the next decade.

Right, I know what your saying, however, what I am saying is that all things that trouble us currently in regards to limitations comes from lacking computer power to crunch numbers, build tools, etc.

I am sort of indifferent overall to the teleportation verses replication. I am fascinated with nanotech, and one of the big issues has been both creating the assembler, and then how to communicate real time with the swarm once created to assemble the structure needed.

This appears to solve the issue by using the photon as the binary communication to begin with for commands, and of course super ultra computers with a bit of creative generational adaptation can create the designs for the assembler. going back to the whole...it may happen in our lifetime (as someone pointed out though, this isn't really teleportation verses copying...not sure why it destroys the information at the starting end though, that seems odd to me.)

So, directly, no...this won't by itself create the tech discussed, however, piggyback with nanotech and you have something

Originally posted by 2012king
Is it only me that sees the possibility of this becoming the most destructive weapon ever created if it gets into the wrong hands? Obviously it is nowhere near perfect yet, and there is no guarantee that it will be able to transport matter, but if it is able to, many years down the line, and a bunch of extremists get hold of it, they could wipe out the entire planet in no time.

The gray goo senario has been speculated for a long time...sure, rip apart everything with a "matter bomb" of swarming nanobots that disassemble everything

however, it was addressed and quickly dismissed itself. the "bomb" would have to replicate itself...meaning start uncontrolled assembly to create more of itself for purposes of exponential growth and destruction
it would take time to build itself

what would take little time is for counters to be deployed to have the task of taking apart these little guys...basically disassemble the assemblers...so, in every senario, the deassemblers would rapidly counter any potential terrorist thread or gray goo senario without issue..of course the trick is to set up a sensor system so you can catch it quickly before anything becomes damaging..which means, lots and lots of probes around and in the earth to function strictly as a detection system (like a really smart white blood cell for the earth)

Originally posted by SaturnFX

... (as someone pointed out though, this isn't really teleportation verses copying...not sure why it destroys the information at the starting end though, that seems odd to me.) ...

One of the most basic laws of Quantum Mechanics is the Pauli Exclusion Principle: that no two particles can occupy the same quantum state. Quantum teleportation is the copying of one particle's quantum state to another. If the original wasn't destroyed, then two particles would exist with the same quantum state, which would violate the Exclusion Principle. So, when the copy is made, the original must be destroyed.

reply to post by SaturnFX


if you use light as the medium of travel, then it can NOT be faster than the medium of light. and...if it is...please explain what that medium is, that is faster than light.

reply to post by jimmyx


Light is not the "medium"...photons are merely the particles used to encode the information, utilizing their two distinct quantum states (spin-up or spin-down). These photons are quantum-entangled, and that entanglement is the true medium. It's a quirky side-effect of Quantum Mechanics, and it works instantaneously without violating Relativity. No photons actually travel in quantum teleportation.

Originally posted by CLPrime

Originally posted by SaturnFX

... (as someone pointed out though, this isn't really teleportation verses copying...not sure why it destroys the information at the starting end though, that seems odd to me.) ...

One of the most basic laws of Quantum Mechanics is the Pauli Exclusion Principle: that no two particles can occupy the same quantum state. Quantum teleportation is the copying of one particle's quantum state to another. If the original wasn't destroyed, then two particles would exist with the same quantum state, which would violate the Exclusion Principle. So, when the copy is made, the original must be destroyed.

and then...

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by jimmyx

 

and it works instantaneously without violating Relativity. No photons actually travel in quantum teleportation.

Yes...hmm...of course.
brb...

(warning...fake head explode video. some people may be offended by fake exploding body parts)



Yes, this concept is far above me...I have been trying to figure out exactly what it means for quite awhile now, and the more detailed info I get, the less it makes sense

The experiment is clear...make two photons sync up...then if you desync one, the other follows suit instantly, no matter the distance.

this to me...is information being sent instantly...and that violates relativity..even though it doesn't, because erm..pixie dust is used (might as well use that since the science is lost on me...even when I really do try to understand it)

This is pretty interesting. In fact, I see this as being yet another thing the government can regulate and keep out of the hands of the people world wide.

A quantum internet carefully regulated by the government is, well unappealing but I suppose Ill take what I can get.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Alrighty, maybe we should begin at the beginning.


QUANTUM STATE

Every particle (electron, proton, neutron, photon, etc.) has a very specific quantum state. This quantum state is represented by a set of quantum numbers. These quantum numbers are:

n - energy level (akin to how far away a planet is from the sun)
l - magnitude of orbital angular momentum (akin to how fast a planet orbits)
m - orientation of orbital angular momentum (akin to the angle at which the planet orbits)
s - magnitude and orientation of spin angular momentum (akin to how fast and at what angle the planet rotates)

Electrons in an atom have all four quantum numbers, while free electrons have only spin (s).
Protons and neutrons (as far as we're concerned here) have only spin.
Photons, as well, have only spin.

So, any given particle's quantum state is described by its set of quantum numbers - or, in this case of any free particle, its single quantum number, spin.

Spin can only be one of two possible orientations: spin-up or spin-down.

Notice that, in the case of spin, we can say there are two possible "values"...just like in binary.


RELATIVITY

The basic tenet of Relativity is that the speed of light is constant in all reference frames. Anything that doesn't naturally arise from that principle is beyond the scope of Relativity.
The constancy of the speed of light does necessitate several phenomenon: time dilation, length contraction, and mass dilation. These exist for no other reason that to ensure that the speed of light is constant in all reference frames.
However, one of the results of these three phenomenon is that nothing with mass can travel at, or faster than, the speed of light (299,792,458 m/s). This is because, as the velocity of an object with mass increases, its mass also increases, and, so, the force required to continue to accelerate the object increases. The increase in mass becomes infinite at the speed of light, so this speed is impossible to reach for any massive object. The force required to accelerate the object to that speed is infinite, which, of course, is impossible.
Thus, the speed of light is perceived to be a "cosmic speed limit."

But, this is where physicists make the irrational jump from "no massive object can travel at the speed of light" to "no information can travel faster than the speed of light." In most cases, the latter statement just happens to be true, but this is only because, in most cases, nothing we experience travels faster than the speed of light.

The assumption failed to anticipate quantum entanglement.


QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT

As I said, the Pauli Exclusion Principle states: no two particles can occupy the same quantum state.
This means, no two particles can have the same set of quantum numbers.

Since, in most cases, particles only have a single quantum number - spin - this means that no two free particles can have the same spin value.
Of course, this only pertains to two particles in a given system. Take electrons, for instance. Two electrons in the same atom (that is, the same system) cannot have the same four quantum numbers. But, two electrons in different atoms (different systems) can have the same quantum numbers.
The same is true for free particles. There is only one instance where free particles are part of the same system: when they are quantum-entangled. This is the only time when they must obey the Pauli Exclusion Principle.

So, let's deal with photons. Typically, if you were two create two photons, they would not be entangled, and they could have any spin value they "wanted". But, there is a way to create two photons in such an intimate state that they are, in fact, part of a single system. And, just like two electrons orbiting the same atoms, these two photons must now obey the Exclusion Principle.

Let's say the two photons stay together. You can observe them both at the same time, and they will necessarily have two different spin values (one will be spin-up, while the other will be spin-down). But, they don't have to stay together. You can put as much distance between them as you want, and they will still have to obey the Exclusion Principle. Two entangled photons on opposite sides of the observable universe still must take on two different spin values. This means, when you observe one, it "chooses" to be either spin-up or spin-down, and the Exclusion Principle demands that the other photon MUST "choose" the opposite value instantaneously.


It doesn't violate Relativity because certain assumptions were made in Relativity before entanglement became a recognized phenomenon.
Quantum Mechanics doesn't bow to Relativity. Relativity bows to Quantum Mechanics.

reply to post by CLPrime


Yep, and thats how I read it before

However, my head simply will not accept it based on many factors

1) what makes someone claim there cannot be the same spin and other aspects? identical protons as your example...this is like saying (really dumbed down) no two snowflakes are alike...however, how could you possibly state that..

2) again, if one reacts to another...that is information exchanging..ok, so the theory is if you alter one, since the no two snowflakes is in effect, the other one automatically reflects the change. I can't get my head around the idea that this is information enchanging, and my basic understanding of relativity is that information cannot exchange faster than light (or in this case, instantaniously).

I read what you wrote, I understand what you wrote, but..well, take what you wrote, and put a "why?" after each sentence, and then a "why" after each answer to that sentence...thats sort of where I am at.

Not that I am saying it isn't truth...I just...my brain simply is having difficulty accepting it without edging into some sort of matrixie computer program, nothing is physical mentality.

anotherwards...your blowin my mind, dude!.

reply to post by SaturnFX


1) The Pauli Exclusion Principle is one of the oldest and well-established principles in atomic physics. Every empirical observation we have confirms that no two particles have the same quantum state. In fact, the Exclusion Principle is required to explain the electron configurations of atoms. It's the reason only 2 electrons are allowed in the innermost "shell" (to use the classical terminology), 8 electrons in the next "shell" out, 18 in the next, 32 in the fourth, and so on. The Exclusion Principle isn't a best-guess (like "no two snowflakes look alike) - it's a requirement to explain atomic structure.

2) Again, like I said, the idea that information cannot be exchanged faster than the speed of light is an unnecessary assumption based on our limited observation of Relativity, and it's an assumption that must be abandoned. Information can, and does, transmit faster than light. It's called Entanglement.

And, if you want, I can actually give you my theory on how entanglement actually works "behind the scenes," to an attempt to answer all the "why"s. I don't want your head to explode, so I won't if you don't want me to but, if you want my theory on "why"...

What I wonder if this is where SETI should be looking? If something wanted to talk with us going through one of these would be a fine way to do so.

Originally posted by CLPrime
And, if you want, I can actually give you my theory on how entanglement actually works "behind the scenes," to an attempt to answer all the "why"s. I don't want your head to explode, so I won't if you don't want me to

but, if you want my theory on "why"...

Sure

I got some duct tape and a wooden spoon just in case though.

reply to post by SaturnFX


They might come in handy.

I think we've been severely tunnelvisioned by our experience of 3 spatial dimensions. When we claim that information can't travel across unlimited distances instantaneously (and, as many suggest, that information can't travel faster than the speed of light), I think we're making a fatal assumption: that distance is real. I would theorize that the distances we measure are an illusion. In fact, I believe there's two kinds of "distance"... pure distance, and inferred distance.

Pure distances are distances at the quantum/atomic level, and are a direct result of energy. For instance, what we see as an electron's "distance" from the nucleus of an atom is actually an illusion caused by the difference in energy between the electron and the nucleus. The higher the electron's energy, the greater we perceive the distance to be. But, there really is no physical distance. It's an illusion caused by how we experience differing energy levels.

Inferred distances are distances at the level we regularly experience, and these are even more illusory than pure distances. Where pure distances are an illusion caused by differing energy levels within a single system (i.e., within an atom), inferred distances are an illusion caused by the "energy separation" of different systems.
It doesn't really matter if you understand this second one (as I'm sure you don't, since I haven't explained it), 'cause it's not involved with entanglement. It's just the second half of the theory, and it's a direct result of energy-based dimensions.

So, we experience 3 spatial dimension:

1) up-down
2) left-right
3) forward-backward

But, as far as I'm concerned, these aren't real. The true dimensions are energy-based:

1) radial energy (described by the quantum number n)
2) orbital energy (described by a combination of the quantum numbers l and m)
3) spin energy (described by the quantum number s, as well as it's orientation - "up" or "down")

The quantum state, then, is a descriptor of a particle in its true dimensions. This naturally explains the Pauli Exclusion Principle. In our illusory spatial dimensions, two particles can, and often do, occupy the same space. It's only in the true (quantum) dimensions that two particles cannot occupy the same space, and that leads naturally to the fact that two particles cannot have the same quantum numbers.

And, finally, this also happens to explain quantum entanglement, because, in the true dimensions, you can put all of the spatial distance you want between two entangled particles, but, in reality, this distance is an illusion, and there is, in fact, no energy "distance" between them. And it's this energy "distance" that truly matters.


So, how's the head?

reply to post by SaturnFX


The trick is that there are no separate objects, all is one in the "implicate order" to use the term out of The Holographic Universe. So entanglement just means one-ness. Compare time to slides after each other. In slide 1 the entangled photons are *, in slide two they are **. There is no information flow, only succeeding slides that have to follow certain rules (which we call the laws of nature).

Originally posted by CLPrime
And it's this energy "distance" that truly matters.


So, how's the head?

Hurts, not to worry, spoon and tape is nearby.

So...space bending...

Except that it doesn't really need to bend because its all just vibrational percieved distances verses true distance to begin with...like erm..

ok, this is the only way its making sense to me (sort of, in a absurdly corrupt way)...we are pixels on a harddrive...(I am all about computer analogy's.) the space is, from the programs point of view, a real thing...virtual world of 30 miles is just that...and the program will require physics to get across the 30 miles of pixel-land, however, the true reality is that its all a program and the distance is an illusion, the programs intent to create the confines shows 30 miles of virtual space of course, and the only hint of this being difference is when clipping occurs (pixels cannot clip without wonkiness going on).

Sorry if I have dragged this rather eloquent explanation into computer monkeyspeak...just trying to get familiar examples.

ok, so...clipping is a bad example overall because that also introduces virtual space as something real...so, hmm..beyond cheat codes, I think I drove myself into a wall...but perhaps you can read my nonsense and make some sense of it with tweaking it.

I sort of think I understand...like a tiny glimmer of light coming on, but not enough to have coherent thoughts yet...perhaps a few different ways of approaching it will finally clue me in to the right analogy anyhow.

Thanks for your patience...and yes, I did try several times to understand QP/Entanglement, but I think your right...my understanding of our 3d space is clouding my ability to understand..but once I "get it", then it will be easy...however, haven't gotten it for...about 12 or so years so far..

new note (speculation).

If all distance is simply perception of different energy levels, then the key in moving great distances isn't about pushing, pulling, or even gravity bending...rather, just altering the harmonic frequencies (energy output) of our quantum structure...no?

aka, humming may be more effective than driving a car to get to alpha centuri (for a retardedly simplified example)

Originally posted by SaturnFX
What I am having trouble with is that...how does this not eliminate the laws of special relativity...information cannot travel faster than light
yet with the process used here, distance means nothing..instant transfer of information from point to point...

now, they do go into how its not actually travelling verses ___(insert mind blowing rationale that goes way above me)__...but from a practical level, without getting involved in the absurdly complex science of it all, instant data from point to point = faster than light...instant is faster than light in my book.

very confusing stuff this quantum entanglement...and shows like an elegant universe and what the bleep do we know only serves to make me know less (considering one dumbs it down to sci-fi, and the other distorts it into quasi-spiritualism)

Special Relativity never really agreed with Quantum Mechanics and it still does not, despite multiple attempts by the best minds in Science to unify the theory's they remain divided. One law governs large bodies and the other very tiny ones.

reply to post by SaturnFX

That's actually a very good explanation. I don't think I can come up with an analogy any better than that. It's very Matrix-y, when explained that way, but it does provide a great illustration, and the theory, itself, doesn't invoke the Matrix at all.
The essence is that there are two levels to the universe:

1) The first is based on energy, and it has three dimension - radial energy, orbital energy, and spin energy (described by the quantum numbers n, l, and m, respectively, of the quantum state). We don't experience this level directly, but we measure and experience it.

And...

2) The second is based on space/distance, and it, too, has three dimensions - up-down, left-right, and forward-backward (described by Riemann normal corrdinates, which are essentially Cartesian coordinates in a curved space). Ironically, this is the level we experience directly, but it's just an illusion generated by the first level.

I'm glad you seem to have understood that. I was afraid the explanation wouldn't be clear. But, I am glad you had the tape and the spoon handy.

So, specific to entanglement, here's what I think happens...

When two entangled pairs of particles are created, they are part of the same system. When these particles are, say, photons, their quantum state is described by one of two values: spin-up or spin-down. And, because of the Pauli Exclusion Principle (which, as I said, follows naturally from my theory), whatever one photon is, the other photon MUST be the opposite.
Now, consider putting distance between the two photons. This means adding kinetic energy to one photon, the other, or both. Regardless, the effect is the same - the distance between them may appear to increase, but, in fact, distance is merely an illusion. The true measure of "distance" is how their energies differ, and, once the photons have been "moved", their energies are once again equal. Thus, there's really no true distance between them, and information is free to travel between them instantaneously.

This doesn't work, however, for particles that aren't part of the same system (for instance, particles that aren't entangled), because the measure of distance between particles in separate systems is different, and more complicated, than the distance between particles in the same system. So, entanglement is a very special case.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
new note (speculation).

If all distance is simply perception of different energy levels, then the key in moving great distances isn't about pushing, pulling, or even gravity bending...rather, just altering the harmonic frequencies (energy output) of our quantum structure...no?

aka, humming may be more effective than driving a car to get to alpha centuri (for a retardedly simplified example)

I've actually had some fun with that idea, myself. And, essentially, that's the point... in order for us to travel to the Alpha Centauri system, we would "simply" need to become energetically congruent with it. No clunky spaceships and multi-millennial lag-times necessary.

That's my theory, anyway, and I'm stickin' to it.

reply to post by CLPrime


ok, just to make sure I am following you...and again, following the analogy of computer stuff...


There are two levels of the coding (universe).
1) the physical reality (real reality verses percieved reality). the universe has different sectors on the harddrive.
and its defragged pretty well, so a certain set of sectors is for a certain point.

obviously information cannot be overlapped on a sector

now...you can move the information from one sector to another with no issue..however, the program itself will not reflect you suddenly over across the virtual map...your still exactly where you are because although the information is now in a different sector, the usable information did not change...

This is where we are now...we know how to swap sectors around (when you move the raw data from one sector to another, it destroys the information in one area and puts it in another)..

The issue here is that, there is currently no way to "refresh" the data physically to reflect virtually you have moved and should then be located in the sectors defined for the new sector...its there, just there is no connecting program to reflect the change...

great, we are fragging the universe...

If this is even slighly the case though...the two realities of perception verses actual, then that changes my views entirely about the universe into mind blowing consequences...holographic universe? not even...we would then be little more than packets of information and virtuality (is that a word?)...a running program...a total and complete illusion, which means then...like you pointed out (matrix), distance means absolutely nothing beyond us simply desiring to observe the programming....and if thats the case, all the tech on earth may mean jack considering that is also an illusion..unless it can somehow allow us to refresh and alter the code to reflect the actual sector positioning.

yep, this is where my head starts building pressure...not sure if the block of my understanding is from not intellectually understanding it, or the consequences of it being a reality are too profound to contemplate.

Well, it would make for some interesting sci-fi anyhow.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Alright...I've been outside and, in between battling the black-flies, I had some time to consider the hard-drive analogy. I think I'd explain it this way...

The entire physical nature of our universe is a hard-disc, having a single program written to it. Let's call that program "DOSmos v1.0". The coding for the program, then, defines the physical laws that govern the universe, covering everything from the mundane (such as Newton's 1st Law of Motion) to the convoluted (such as the Dirac Equation - look that one up ).
In this case, the only things that are real are the disc, itself, and the program physically encoded into its magnetic surface.

Our minds, then, act like individual computers sharing the same hard-drive - each one reading, and decoding, the same program. It's in each computer that the code gets translated to bring our program, DOSmos, to life (so-to-speak).
Together, these computers form a network, and, when combined, this network forms reality as we experience it.

Each computer can also make changes to the coding of the program - not the part that defines universal laws (which, you might say, we would need Administrator Access to change), but the part that generates energy and matter (which, in fact, are two forms of the same thing). And, even then, we can't create or destroy matter/energy - we can only transfer it from one location on the hard-disc to another.

But, of course, "location" on the hard-disc is different from "location" in the program. On the disc, which is energy-based, location means very little. "Moving" energy from one location on the disc to another simply means changing its application by re-organizing the code. However, this change in the application of the code does have the affect of changing the location we experience of whatever it is the energy is being applied to.

And it's in this way that the DOSmos program goes from the hard-disc of the physical reality to the computer of our perceived reality.

If this is right, then quantum entanglement is a glimpse at the true nature of our program. All we need to do now is find a way to manipulate its code in order to relocate objects without entanglement. That's all we need to get to Alpha Centauri - or across the universe, for that matter.