Preachers who are not Believers

reply to post by SaberTruth


Or you could stop spouting baseless conspiracy feces (as opposed to conspiracy feces which has a basis) and maybe actually look into the world of academia and try and understand statistics and general research methodology instead of crouching in the dark and trying to throw stones at it. Ah fornicate it, I'll take it point-by point because this is just fractally wrong.

Originally posted by SaberTruth
I believe Kissinger was being honest about infiltration. In fact, many of the Ivy league schools were once Christian seminaries, but look at them now.

Yeah, they've actually contributed something to society, like medical research that's doubled the human lifespan (which is based on evolution) and technology that allows us to communicate over vast distances. They've shed light on areas that were once kept in the dark by religious slants.

My formal education was not in theology or history, but I don't believe there's a college or university or even tech school that steps outside of the mandates of its benefactors.

No, you are actively believing something here. You're believing that there's an active suppression of Christianity in academia.

Whoever funds the endowments etc. rules the world, and the very rich who fund higher education absolutely control it.

Evidence needed.

Their views, it would appear, have been anything but favorable to the Bible and the Christian faith.

Evidence needed. Or is it just that you have a problem with the facts contradicting your beliefs?

So I do not trust the colleges to be neutral; they will present only the data that supports their agenda and either ignore or distort that which does not.

Well, the wonderful thing about science and methodological research of any stripe, is that it's publicly published to prevent just such things from happening. Hell, the whole tenure system was designed to prevent the institution from monopolizing ideology and using it as a means to promote an agenda.

Ideology is power, and education has long been indoctrination.

Yeah, higher education, that place where you're taught to question everything in a methodological fashion that's designed to prevent bias from seeping in, is rife with indoctrination.

The last thing they want is for people to learn how to question authority.

...apparently you are unaware of a little something known as every single college campus in America. College campuses were the only source of real grass roots anti-establishment movements for the longest time.

Peer pressure esp. in higher ed. can be intense, and who wants to jeopardize their GPA and stand up to a professor who mocks your faith or the documentation that supports it?

You do realize that you're just idly speculating there, right? Let me guess, you think Ben Stein's faux documentary 'Expelled' supports your position, right?

You do realize that there isn't a single religion on this planet with documentation to support it, don't you? Oh, by the way, at my university I had to argue in favor of the proofs of god presented by Aquinas or fail a metaphysics unit that made up 6% of my grade for a year. In my university, a religious institution has veto power over which teachers can and cannot teach certain philosophy lectures.

Students follow profs like lemmings or baby ducks, practically worshiping them as prophets who must not be questioned or doubted.

Woooooooo bias! I'm sorry, but you're just spouting off very traditional lines about higher education from someone who clearly hasn't actually participated in it.

That's how you destroy Christianity;

With facts!

you pervert the best and brightest who will spread the disease to the masses.

Wow, so apparently I'm perverted and diseased! So kind and compassionate.

Originally posted by Klassified
As I said above. This is most important, whether anyone listens to a nobody or not. Even though it is frustrating. I personally believe the fundamentals of any religion, but in this case christianity, will be carried forward by those who are self taught and diligent. Not by those who stand in pulpits, or behind lecterns, preaching and teaching what they don't even believe or truly know from an experiential perspective.

Absolutely. There is a growing "out of church" movement, away from the "pulpits, pews, and professionals" scene. The old guard rages against it of course.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

I think where you will find the greatest concentration of literalists among christians is in the non-denominational and charismatic sector. This is the sector I came out of. Though I had plenty of exposure to the others.

There are some very strict literalist beliefs among these folks. Including many of the ministers. But not all. I've met those who obviously didn't live what they were preaching.

In the church, you will occasionally hear pastors preaching a need for fresh perspective from younger minds. Translated, that sometimes means, we need laity that actually believes what they're preaching to get that excitement level up, and therefore drive numbers and donations up for the church.

I'll be looking forward to your thoughts once you've read the study.

Originally posted by SaberTruth

Originally posted by LHP666

IMO it doesn't matter if he says it or not. It's the same bible. You cannot infiltrate a book.

Ah, but you can. The United Bible Societies have been the "keepers" of the original language texts for generations. ...

The KJV has been around, in various incarnations, for a lot longer than that.

I'm not familiar with the incident you wrote of. But if you really want to see some real shenanigans, get E-Sword (it's very good, and it's free) and see what they did to the words translated as "hell" 'damnation', eternal, 'for ever', etc.

But nobody hardly knows her name because she was a woman, though she mastered both Greek and Hebrew and got informal peer review from respected scholars of the day.

You don't need to be a greek/hebrew scholar to see how they twisted scriptures, particularly the examples I cite above.

Crap is being flung in all directions.

You're always going to have the True Believers. They're idiots imo.
The well is truly poisoned. All you have to do is declare it and it must be true, eh? But don't listen to me, I'm an idiot in your estimation.

If I was calling you an idiot, I would have to acknowledge that I too was an idiot. I lived that nonsense for 40 years. That is a lot of wasted time and money.

The idiocy comes from not doing due diligence in understanding ones own religion.

If you want to remain a christian, I recommend that you do not look too deeply into it. You will not like what you find. I looked into it. Not to prove it false but to understand it. Once I understood it, it proved itself false.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by Klassified

 

I've actually heard about this from The Atheist Experience public access show and The Thinking Atheist podcast. I sort of get it, and I'll use a military analogy. A lot of people who come out of special operations units, SEAL teams and the like, often have trouble adapting back into civilian life after devoting so much time to their specializations. And it's so much worse if you're a preacher, which is a field where there aren't exactly all that many ways for an injury to take you out of it.

You spend your life doing something, you're bound to have trouble finding something else to do.

Anyway, great topic, star and flag.

A valid point. And probably more prevalent than one might think.

Originally posted by LHP666
The KJV has been around, in various incarnations, for a lot longer than that.

The one example I gave was from the 1950s but there are more, as I said.

I'm not familiar with the incident you wrote of. But if you really want to see some real shenanigans, get E-Sword (it's very good, and it's free) and see what they did to the words translated as "hell" 'damnation', eternal, 'for ever', etc.

I have used many Bible programs and am making a NT interlinear of my own. I know what they did.

You don't need to be a greek/hebrew scholar to see how they twisted scriptures, particularly the examples I cite above.

You do if you want to catch them lying about the Greek and Hebrew.

If I was calling you an idiot, I would have to acknowledge that I too was an idiot. I lived that nonsense for 40 years. That is a lot of wasted time and money.

I lived that "nonsense" for 47 years. The nonsense was the "churchianity" stuff, not the Bible. Now I just follow Jesus, and have concluded that the Bible is where to find the truth about him.

If you want to remain a christian, I recommend that you do not look too deeply into it. You will not like what you find. I looked into it. Not to prove it false but to understand it. Once I understood it, it proved itself false.

I am a Christian precisely because I looked into it. The more I learned, the deeper my faith became. Far from "proving itself false" it proved itself the only Way, Truth and Life. I have always believed that a faith worth having must be the most intensely scrutinized, because if it's true it has nothing to fear.

Originally posted by SaberTruth

You don't need to be a greek/hebrew scholar to see how they twisted scriptures, particularly the examples I cite above.

You do if you want to catch them lying about the Greek and Hebrew.

What you catch are the blatant inconsistencies in how the words were translated. But that is not the only problem. It is a major problem, but there are other things that have been translated accurately that are just as bad.

I lived that "nonsense" for 47 years. The nonsense was the "churchianity" stuff, not the Bible. Now I just follow Jesus, and have concluded that the Bible is where to find the truth about him.

I used to make that distinction too. Not anymore.

If that is the conclusion you came to, then that is the conclusion that you came to,

reply to post by SaberTruth


as a 6 year old, we were shown a movie about saints putting rocks in their shoes, etc.
closer to God through mortification of your body, and insane old superstition.

walking out of the theater i remember thinking, "maybe we are here to learn something, but there has to be a better way"

i have always questioned everything.

60 years later, from what i've seen, i'd say at least half of all Church management are profesionals who have never had a spiritual experience in their lives.
social advancement, even community wellfare, economic benifits, tv political prostitution brings $,who knows why they chose the profession?

in 1969 i went to a black church in Washington, DC, it had a kitchen, day care and playground.

i thought, this is the first useful church i've ever seen.

some congregations actually do good work in their communities, in all sects and Faiths.
volunteers doing food pantries, clothing, etc.
some very good people getting fleeced by vultures too, unfortunately.

as a human, my ability to understand the universe is very limited,
but when Doctrine, Dogma, is mixed with political views, i'm no longer listening.

that's why i'm, "no religeous preference".

good luck with your writings.

Originally posted by citizen6511
but when Doctrine, Dogma, is mixed with political views, i'm no longer listening.

Everybody has some doctrine or dogma, mixed or not. There is no such thing as a completely neutral person, or one who does not bring certain convictions to the table. The question is never whether morality can be legislated, but whose morality it will be.

good luck with your writings.

Thanks.

A lot of scams involve a middleman.

If you believe in a God, pray to that God, not a middleman (eg; Shi'as, Christians)

How many pastors participated in that survey? You say 5 didn't believe in a literal God. That's not a very good reflection of the sermons I've heard in a lot of those denominations.

reply to post by Klassified


Dear Klassified,

I believe infiltrated is not quite right, the church allowed in those who do not believe. They sought quantity over quality, this is nothing to argue over, merely my explanation of what has occurred, the consequence of inaction. We (believers) of any faith need to clean our own houses before seeking to say what we believe. Let the Muslim clean his house, let the Buddhist clean his house, let us clean our house and stop worrying about people seeing how we let it get into such confusion. Fix the infrastructure and the rest will follow.

Why we let non-believers teach new believers when they have nothing to teach is stupidity and worldliness to attain numbers rather than belief. Great post, be well.

I've kind of wondered if some of my pastors believed in God. The sermons we would hear would sometimes inflect doubt and the pastors would try to counter that doubt through some reasoning. One recent sermon was about the whole Jesus really wasn't born in a manger, probably wasn't at an inn, and probably wasn't even in Bethlehem. But take what you will, just because their your pastor doesn't mean you have believe their point of view.

Education in the modern day system has the ability to brain wash young people unfortunately. You must believe the professors & universities point of view because they are the experts right? I often get a lot of heat because of my skepticism of "the experts". Like others, I like to pick and choose what I like and don't like about subjects and I think that's what happens with religion people choose to focus on things they like about a religion instead of the things they don't like.

For example I don't like the idea of the apocalypse or the rapture, I don't think it is what everyone chalks it up to be. There is no doubt Christianity has been warped from what it once was supposed to be... originally I think it was to be a more personal religion not one controlled by a Pastor or Pope. One of the things Christ often said was to "Know thyself". I think Atheists tend to think Christians are brainwashed sheep, but at least with me and other Christians I know that is not the case. I read and watch lots of material about Quantum Physics, Near Death Experiences, and Archaeological subjects (like the Shroud of Turin). So I have my own thoughts and everyone should be entitled to that...

This really shouldn't be shocking to anyone.

The Bible itself explicitly provides it readers with lessons on false prophets. It's the very reason the ancient Israelites continued to fall in and out of favor with their God because they could never discern the false prophets.

There are sections of scripture in the Bible that were written by false prophets of that particular time. There are also other parts of the Bible written by true prophets. Generally, the books of prophets were God's representatives warning and admonishing the general population and they were usually killed because the people preferred the sweet lies over the hard truths. It does not amaze me that thousands of years later things have not changed. History does repeat itself.

You don't have many ministers directing their parishoners to discern false prophets for a very good reason. Liars usually try to avoid exposing themselves.

So it does not surprise me that these non-believing ministers wanted to hide under the cloak of anonymity. Yes, I am sure mainstream Christianity is being led by wolves in sheep clothing. I also would go as far as to say their congregation are definitely not sheep either. I've heard before that a good servant choses a good master and evil servant the same.

reply to post by MaryStillToe


Give an example of what was written by a false prophet in The Bible.

Originally posted by ProphecyPhD
On the topic of 'Preachers Who Are Not Believers', check this thread out Click Here .

I am grown now however and i have studied the Holy Bible for myself, i now have my own views. In retrospect i was introduced to Christ by a preacher who wasn't a believer. I however do believe because i've studied for MYSELF.

Well put, we must study on our own with an open mind to accept truth as we come across it. If we study looking to discredit God and the Bible, then that is exactly what one finds, the desires of our hearts.

BTW, God hates religion. All "christian" religions are flawed. You will find nowhere in the Bible that people need to be 'christians'. Scripture speaks of "One mind, One accord". With so many 'christian' denominations each with there own doctrine is unbiblical. Scripture speaks of Disciples of Christ and a remnant of true disciples all around the world. Never of one particular group of a certain denomination.

Originally posted by RisingPhoenix33
reply to post by MaryStillToe

 

Give an example of what was written by a false prophet in The Bible.

JEREMIAH - PROPHET
22For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:

23But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

24But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

25Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them:

26Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.

My understanding is that the prophet Jeremiah wrote that God never asked the ancient Israelites to perform burnt offerings or sacrifices. Instead, this was something they chose to do and then said it was required by God.


EXODUS - SOME ANCIENT SCRIBE / PRIEST INSTRUCTION

22And the LORD said unto Moses, Thus thou shalt say unto the children of Israel, Ye have seen that I have talked with you from heaven.

23Ye shall not make with me gods of silver, neither shall ye make unto you gods of gold.

24An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.

25And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it.


So who do you believe here the prophet Jeremiah or the scribes who wrote the account of Exodus where they claim God requested burnt offerings. Can both of these be true? I don't believe so.

I mean if you read Exodus and Leviticus there are all kinds of super detailed instructions that the people who wrote the book claim came directly from God.

I am sure good laws and certain behaviors can be God inspired, but did God really go into detail about how to exactly place tools on the altar? A lot of these old testament books are full of details about which fabric color to use on tents and etc and all of the details are claimed to come directly from God.

When I started my read of the Bible and began with Genesis I thought it was so weird how detailed many of the instructions were. I am sure God has an eye for detail, but from my own experiences it does not seem that God really ever controls humans with that level of detail. So maybe the leaders didn't have bad intentions but it shouldn't be shocking if the leaders used his name to get people to do exactly what they wanted. I am sure over time others began to see the power one could wield by using his name and then came false prophets with more sinister intentions for personal wealth and power. Not hard to believe since Jesus bascially claimed the same thing when he finally came around years later.

The Bible as we see it today is a collection of books strung together. You can gain insghts and wisdom from reading the whole thing, but too often people are having pointless arguments about Biblical content without looking at the big picture.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by boondock-saint

 

How could Satan, or anyone else for that matter, actual do something that contradicts God's will? And how exactly does one muck up the perfect plan of a perfect deity? And how does a perfect God create an imperfect world to begin with? Just a few logical holes that haven't received patching after centuries and centuries of apologist failures. If Satan's responsible at least he has logic on his side

edit on 10-6-2011 by Titen-Sxull because: (no reason given)

because he allowed it to happen that way. It breaks down to freedom of choice and god plans. And how exactly does one muck up the perfect plan of a perfect deity? It was foretold Satan would lose the war. God created an imperfect world to begin with? lol actually he created a perfect world we screwed it up. How you ask? By gaining knowledge of good and evil meaning he had to judge people and to judge them he needed a fair level playing field you cant do that when people know you exist so he gave them the freedom of choice.believe or not believe. It a way to hide their sins from themselves. When that wasn't enough his son was killed to protect you from your sins. Why would a perfect deity create something imperfect? Maybe he wanted to see if given the chance people could become perfect on their own

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by SaberTruth

 

Would you agree that the church as a whole would be better off shunning the christian educational system in favor of those who have studied on their own, and have shown a solid understanding of biblical doctrine and interpretation in order to preserve traditional beliefs?

I do think that institutionalized Christianity is anacronistic.

Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus...
...and once believed the person receives the Spirit...
...so the experience is by necessity individual.

Originally one person with the Spirit of the risen Christ was a Christ-one...
...two or more Christ-ones were an ekkelsia a secular Greek term meaning a gathering.

So these 'preachers' are just part of a human institution and are without the Spirit...
...so of course they are not believers...its just not how it works.

I am not suprised by the survey. I have been in retail many years and have employed students attending the local seminary..some were young men and women, some were older or middle aged.

More than a few looked at being a Pastor as an easy job...a way to make a living without much physical labor. Fortunately, there were many that really had faith and passion.

If you are a student of the Bible and your faith, you can detect after a while which preachers are sincere and which are going through the motions.... key phrases, the way they refer to passages in the Bible... recurring themes.

Oddly enough, the very thing that drove so many away from the Bible, actually reinforced my understanding and belief in the Bible.... research, indepth study from outside sources...heck, even National Geographic.

For example, as the US intelligence searched for Sadam's tanks in the first gulf war..they realized he had buried them up to their turrets to hide and camolage them. But the tanks were more dense than the surrounding sand and retained heat longer...the satellites could pickup their heat signature...and there they were..all of sadam's tanks. BUT, they also found a path...a path of sand that had been packed tight from a mass travel or migration of peoples. they followed the path from N Egypt in what biblically was called the Land of Goshen...it wound across the tip of the Red Sea and into Saudi Arabia to what locals traditionally call the Mountain of God....it was determined this was the Exodus path and subsequent archeological digs and explorations have found corraborating evidence.

Anyway...back to the thread...the fact that so many "Pastors" lack real faith is why the Churches in the US are struggling and having problems defining who they are. It is the reason so many are taught "feel good" messages and have no real understanding of what the Bible says or what the deeper contexts and meanings are.

That is the reason so many self defined athiests are better versed in the Christian faith than the Christians themselves... they have actually studied what they don't believe better than the Christians have studied what they do believe.

Lastly, like so many have stated before...it is for that reason the foundations of my Christian faith lie outside the "organized" church. I am a member of THE Church...not so much a church.