Atheism

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Chewingonmushrooms
Atheism is a belief that there is no god.

Not really. Atheism is a disbelief that there are gods. There is a subtle difference between not believing in gods and believing there are no gods; that is, one makes a positive claim and the other doesn't.

yep! Good point.

I can't understand why people feel that atheism is a religion, when there is no real positive belief of god(s)

reply to post by UB2120


Dude, you can spout as much psychobabel as you like it atill doesn't get around the fact that children are "Born" atheists. Quit the juju mumbojumbo it has no meaning only to you.

reply to post by ButterCookie

I can't understand why people feel that atheism is a religion, when there is no real positive belief of god(s)

You will find that it is mostly xtian people that do this, they have a tendency to parrot whatever their pastor said on a sunday without actually giving it any real thought at all.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms

Originally posted by Chewingonmushrooms
Which god do you speak of? God is a loaded word with many meanings.

Any of them. An atheist doesn't believe in any deity.

To be agnostic is to be unsure either way; it is a stance of indifference due to lack of knowledge, or lack of proof either way.

There is no such thing as being indifferent on issues of belief. You either do or do not believe in something. A lack of proof of something almost always means a lack of belief in something. Those who are not theists or deists are atheists, it's just how it goes.

The machine is either on or off.

Babies? Atheists. They are unaware of the concept of a deity and thus are unable to participate in belief in any of them.

Atheism is a belief that there is no god.

*ahem*

WRONG!

I love it when people tell me that I'm a believer in the non-existence of deities when I clearly am not. Atheist is the lack of a belief in any deity.

Atheism, as stated, would be: I do not believe in any deity.
What you're stating is what would be referred to as gnostic atheism, which includes the above statement and then includes the additional statement: I believe there are no deities.

I don't agree with the "it's either this or that" which to me is a black and white way of seeing things.

This is the sort of shallowness of understanding that I'm so frustrated with. Sometimes things are binary positions, black and white so to speak. Something can be either on or off, there is no inbetween state. Belief in this case for myself is off, making me an atheist. Anyone else whose belief is off is an atheist as well.

Originally posted by The Djin
reply to post by UB2120

 

Dude, you can spout as much psychobabel as you like it atill doesn't get around the fact that children are "Born" atheists. Quit the juju mumbojumbo it has no meaning only to you.

I apologize if that was too difficult for you to understand.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

If there is no reward for doing good, then there is no incentive for being good.

If there is no punishment for doing bad, then there is no discentive for being bad.

Perhaps if you're a sociopath.

Is it really a coincidence that communism did not work out so well?

In the military for example, they give you awards for doing things above and beyond the call of duty and conversely if you can't do the minimum or do something awful thing they punish you.

In civilian life if you perform more of what is expected of you, you get job promotions and increased pay. If your lousy then you get fired. If you kill someone you go to jail..........

However if we take what you say at face value, the thing is, there doesn't need to be a god to deliver rewards and punishments. When a person murders another person, humans either lock him away for years and years, or they kill him in revenge. God doesn't do this; it's people punishing people. God is thus irrelevant to the situation.

Well thats YOUR OPINION and I certainly disagre. I believe both in good karma and bad karma.

Basically you believe in mediocracy by default.

Well, to be fair, you're the one saying you couldn't be assed to help an old lady pick up her spilled groceries unless there's a reward for doing so. Seems to me the apathy - and thus mediocrity - is your own.

when/where did I say anything about some old lady?

I think aliens do play a part in our decision making process at a subconcious level through telepathy. Good aliens are called angels and bad aliens are called demons. God either rules the good angels or rules both and we all know satan/lucifer rules the bad aliens.

Okay. I'd like to meet one of these aliens. Also could you show me some sort of readout showing the messages being beamed into our brain? After all there's definitely some energy transfer there, it should be quite detectable. Also while you're at it, could you show me documentation of god and lucifer's reign over these alies? Some missives, board meeting notes, communiques of some sort? Thanks in advance.

Its called metaphysics. Some people accept they do not know everything and are open to new ideas, while others like to play god and think humans are alone on one rock out of 9 rocks in this solar system, and millions of rocks and suns are vacant.

We must be "special" heh?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

Common sense is stupid. I prefer rational inquiry because the universe doesn't fit with common sense. If common sense had any use beyond bare survival we wouldn't need physics or chemistry or mathematics or any other field of inquiry because the universe would just make sense.

To the contrary common sense is the most valuable asset you will ever have. Another way of putting it is "gut feeling" and more times than not, "gut feeling" proves my initial hypothesis correct.

And science is a self-evolving process which has its own flaws. Only math is 100% universal and 100% accurate. The problem with an atheist is he is too short sighted and superficial in what he/she accepts as truth and evidence. If you shut the door on metaphysics, what remains is physics.

We don't need an incentive to be good. We don't need a fear of consequence to not be bad. I don't tend to get rewards for my good actions, I just do them because that's what I hope everyone else would do in that instance.

So everybody is a saint? And since you do not believe in religion...everyone is "goody two shoes"? Are you really that naive/stupid? What planet do you live on? On my planet earth, the politicians are robbing the people blind and media downplays everything. On my planet, government allows planes to crash into buildings so that "my government" can go to war in foreign countries, so arms can be sold and so the tsa can scan people naked and/or otherwise fondle their private parts.

Yes I am being sarcastic..so maybe you get my point!

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

So everybody is a saint? And since you do not believe in religion...everyone is "goody two shoes"? Are you really that naive/stupid?

I didn't notice madness imply any such thing.

Are you really that ignorant?

There is no good reason to be an atheist, just like there is no good reason to be a religious fanatic.

One says if I can't prove dieties exist, then dieties do not exist. The second says I believe dieities exist exactly as stated in the religious texts because my religious forefathers said so and they were totally honest in what they heard/read/believed.

The wise thing to do when you are not sure about something is to let it go and be agnostic. Otherwise you are a fool and fools are a dime a dozen in the so called "age of enlightment" with ipods and iphones. Technology is great but it has limitations.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

So everybody is a saint? And since you do not believe in religion...everyone is "goody two shoes"? Are you really that naive/stupid?

I didn't notice madness imply any such thing.

Are you really that ignorant?

Let me guess....your an anarcho-communist?

I despise naive people because they are a menace to society without realising it!

reply to post by UB2120


...I'm quite sure it's not a matter of not understanding more than understanding that it's unrelated. Babies are born atheists. They're also born a-bicyclists. They're unfamiliar with the concept and thus are unable to believe in it. The uninformed are, by necessity, those in unbelief.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by ButterCookie

 

If there is no reward for doing good, then there is no incentive for being good.

If there is no punishment for doing bad, then there is no discentive for being bad.

Perhaps if you're a sociopath.

Is it really a coincidence that communism did not work out so well?

...communism is a system outlined in Acts of the Apostles...
And the reason it didn't work out so well is, well...some pretty messed up individuals gained power, as power-hungry individuals are prone to doing. Further, they didn't gain power in very well-off nations. Think about...Czarist Russia? Pre-Mao China? Pre-Castro Cuba? Post-WW2 Korea? Post-WW2 Vietnam?

None of these places were particularly well off.

What's crazier is that Marx made a prediction about which nation would be the first to go communist...and he got it about as wrong as he could have. Yep, he predicted the good ol' USA would naturally grow into a communist society.

In the military for example, they give you awards for doing things above and beyond the call of duty and conversely if you can't do the minimum or do something awful thing they punish you.

...and the military is a system designed around killing, either the active performance of it or the prevention of it. The consequences are meant to be harsh due to the stakes of failure. It's actually called proportional punishment.

In civilian life if you perform more of what is expected of you, you get job promotions and increased pay. If your lousy then you get fired. If you kill someone you go to jail..........

In civilian life, the number one indicator of your lifetime wealth is the wealth of your family. The wealthier you're born, the more likely you are to maintain wealth. Furthermore, a great many people go above and beyond in jobs and lose out to yes men and those who are simply better at networking.

And anyone who has spent time in a workplace knows there's always a moron or someone completely inept that doesn't get fired. See: Dubya.

Of course, what you're talking about has nothing to do with morality. You can act good in 'good faith' so to speak. I'd actually recommend reading up on Kant's ideas of morality, though they are circular, he lays a good starting point. You get the idea of having a system where you judge your actions by whether or not you'd want other people to do as you do.

Well thats YOUR OPINION and I certainly disagre. I believe both in good karma and bad karma.

No, that's a statement of facts. We have evidence of his statements, you have none. You're merely positing something.

Its called metaphysics.

...no, I've studied metaphysics, that's not particularly metaphysics. Plato, as wrong as his ideas are, practiced metaphysics and based all of his ideas on at least some level of argumentation and evidence. He created his theory of forms in the light of his experiences of teaching ideas to someone. He reasoned it all out...it was still an insane conclusion, but there was reason behind it.

Some people accept they do not know everything and are open to new ideas,

Yeah, like scientists and atheists.

while others like to play god and think humans are alone on one rock out of 9 rocks in this solar system, and millions of rocks and suns are vacant.

...actually, the only people I've met who claim this are religious individuals. I'm an atheist, I'm also a skeptic on the alien contact issue, though I'm fairly convinced that alien life is probable. I'm also unconvinced on the idea of telepathy because it goes contrary to everything we know about the brain and physics and has no explanation.

Carl Sagan, a famous atheist, is probably the one most famous for popularizing the idea that we are probably not alone in the vastness of the cosmos, though it does seem unlikely that we'll ever get to meet even our closest neighbors anytime soon.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


People have no real comprehension of the english language anymore, because most people don't read anymore unless they have to. They may read retarded things like celebrity gossip and such, you don't need much of a grasp of english to understand that. In fact, you have to forget most of the english language to understand crap like that nowadays. It's 3/4 slang, and 1/4 text speak these days.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
To the contrary common sense is the most valuable asset you will ever have. Another way of putting it is "gut feeling" and more times than not, "gut feeling" proves my initial hypothesis correct.

This is why 'common sense' is so useless. What you're talking about is confirmation bias. Please, run a controlled experience measuring the instances in which your 'gut feeling' is right, I guarantee that you're just mistaken here.

Here are some things that go against common sense:
Gravity (I don't see how the idea that
Spheroid Earth
Heliocentrism
Stars being the same sort of objects as our sun
Time is not constant
Energy and matter being interchangeable
Glass melting at low temperatures
Being able to dunk your hand in molten lead without losing it
Being able to dunk your hand in liquid nitrogen without losing it
The idea that a gas can become a liquid in the first place

...actually, I could just put it more simply: The vast majority of the body of scientific knowledge.

Now, can you please demonstrate for me the use of common sense in understanding the universe around us?

And science is a self-evolving process which has its own flaws.

Such as? I'm sorry, but I keep hearing this and nobody has pointed out a flaw in science yet.

Only math is 100% universal and 100% accurate.

Math is an abstraction built to explain the physical universe....and no, it's not 100% accurate. Pi.

The problem with an atheist is he is too short sighted and superficial in what he/she accepts as truth and evidence.

Yep, I'll only accept demonstrable items as evidence. I'll only take things that can be verified and tested as evidence. I won't take things at your word.

If you shut the door on metaphysics, what remains is physics.

And metaphysics has provided humanity with nothing over the three thousand years in which it has been practiced, while physics has provided us with...modern technology. Pretty much all of it.

So everybody is a saint? And since you do not believe in religion...everyone is "goody two shoes"?

Nope, we're just social animals. We realize that it is best for survival if we perform 'good' actions instead of bad. It's not just best for our own survival, but for our family and descendants. Furthermore, we have empathy in the form of mirror neurons (the thing in our brains that separates us from sociopaths) and understand what it is like to suffer ourselves.

Are you really that naive/stupid? What planet do you live on? On my planet earth, the politicians are robbing the people blind and media downplays everything. On my planet, government allows planes to crash into buildings so that "my government" can go to war in foreign countries, so arms can be sold and so the tsa can scan people naked and/or otherwise fondle their private parts.

Yadda yadda yadda, irrelevant, unproven and refuted conspiracy claims...also, the media is sensationalist if anything at all.

Yes I am being sarcastic..so maybe you get my point!

All I get is that you have no valid arguments.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


I'm going to start swearing in my native tongue soon enough...

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
There is no good reason to be an atheist, just like there is no good reason to be a religious fanatic.

One says if I can't prove dieties exist, then dieties do not exist.

Strrrrrrrraaaaaaawwwwww maaaaaaannnnnn

The wise thing to do when you are not sure about something is to let it go and be agnostic.

Agnosticism is a separate issue of epistemology, not belief. Anyone who is not a theist is, by definition, an atheist. It's a binary position. Either the belief switch is in the on or off position.

Otherwise you are a fool and fools are a dime a dozen in the so called "age of enlightment" with ipods and iphones.

Yep, the age of enlightenment when the above average college physics entrant knows more about physics than Newton did.

Technology is great but it has limitations.

Yes, it does. And technology is merely an application of scientific discoveries, which are growing every day (no thanks to people like yourself).

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Straw men abound. Why is it that people who disagree with you are automatically herded into easy to address groups that they don't belong to?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Here are some things that go against common sense:
Gravity (I don't see how the idea that
Spheroid Earth
Heliocentrism
Stars being the same sort of objects as our sun
Time is not constant
Energy and matter being interchangeable
Glass melting at low temperatures
Being able to dunk your hand in molten lead without losing it
Being able to dunk your hand in liquid nitrogen without losing it
The idea that a gas can become a liquid in the first place

...actually, I could just put it more simply: The vast majority of the body of scientific knowledge.

Most of the examples you listed are not counter-intuitive.

Our understanding of gravity may be flawed, yes the earth is round and probably hollow, helicentrism means all the planets revolve around the sun, our sun is one of many stars in the universe, time is constant, energy and matter are interchangeable, glass melting at low temperatures I am not sure about, dunking your hand in molten lead and liquid nitrogen for a few seconds without losing them, gas becomes a liquid at cold temperatures but in its natural earth state remains a gas.

I will put it simply...The vast majority of scientific knowledge makes sense....common sense!

Now, can you please demonstrate for me the use of common sense in understanding the universe around us?

I just did!

And science is a self-evolving process which has its own flaws.

Such as? I'm sorry, but I keep hearing this and nobody has pointed out a flaw in science yet.

The scientific process itself is normally not flawed but if you put in the wrong data then you will get the wrong results. The hollow earth theory, hollow moon theory, our understanding of gravity in relation to electromagnetism, worm holes, antigravity, nuclear energy, etc...are probably not understood well!

.

The problem with an atheist is he is too short sighted and superficial in what he/she accepts as truth and evidence.

Yep, I'll only accept demonstrable items as evidence. I'll only take things that can be verified and tested as evidence. I won't take things at your word.

The problem is what evidence you accept as proof.

And metaphysics has provided humanity with nothing over the three thousand years in which it has been practiced, while physics has provided us with...modern technology. Pretty much all of it.

The only difference between the two is that one is understood and accepted while the other is not. Todays metaphysics will be "tomorrows" physics when the secret government allows it.

Are you really that naive/stupid? What planet do you live on? On my planet earth, the politicians are robbing the people blind and media downplays everything. On my planet, government allows planes to crash into buildings so that "my government" can go to war in foreign countries, so arms can be sold and so the tsa can scan people naked and/or otherwise fondle their private parts.

Yadda yadda yadda, irrelevant, unproven and refuted conspiracy claims...also, the media is sensationalist if anything at all.

What about the global economic crisis, the housing and stock market bubbles?

Governments are made up of people with...as you put it......thirst for power!...and I would take it one step further misaligned with the *axis of evil*...sell yourself to devil stuff.

Yes I am being sarcastic..so maybe you get my point!

All I get is that you have no valid arguments.

edit on 10/6/11 by madnessinmysoul because: quote fix

Indeed you have no valid arguements, just denying points for the sake of passing time.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Strrrrrrrraaaaaaawwwwww maaaaaaannnnnn

Agnosticism is a separate issue of epistemology, not belief. Anyone who is not a theist is, by definition, an atheist. It's a binary position. Either the belief switch is in the on or off position.

You can make it as complicated as your imagination allows but in reality there are three positions to label people:

1)Theist-believes in dieties 2)Agnostic-don't know 3)Atheist-don't believe in dieties

And yes there are *in between levels* but it becomes kind of silly imo...............

Yes, it does. And technology is merely an application of scientific discoveries, which are growing every day (no thanks to people like yourself).

I don't hate technology, I simply hate the arrogance it breeds from people who think they have "conquered the world" because they have gps, a good job, an expensive car, whatever.............

Believing in God is not a choice. Could you unbelieve if you wanted? I wish it was because if I could choose, I would. I'd love to be ignorant in that way, it sure must be bliss...

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


It is amazing how many arguments there are about what a particular label means.
Labels will only ever cause arguments.
Let us forget the labels and unite.
Labels separate, fragment.
How can we chop something that is complete into bits?

There are many on here who will continue to be arrogant and ignorant.
I say leave them with their arrogance and ignorance.
Their anger says it all.
They have to live with it.