The Ghetto

The word ghetto was popularized in the late 1930s to refer to the place where Jews were restricted to live, and it was the worst section of town-- not because of the Jews but because of poverty. But once the area was established as not just the poor section of town but the living quarters of prisoners and undesirables, "ghetto" became a byword for not only economic poverty but also a den of criminals or subversives. And so the Jews became a lower class through a vicious cycle: take them from their homes and assign them to the run-down area, then judge them by the area they live in.

Ever since then, the word "ghetto" has come to define the worst part of any city, and a place where the police only care if a member of the respected class needs help there; they don't do anything or care if one ghetto dweller commits a crime against another, or especially if a member of the "protected class" commits crime against an undesirable. They may make a token arrest or give warnings they never intend to enforce, just to keep the place from boiling over and to sustain a facad of impartiality, but the unspoken rule is that ghetto dwellers don't get justice. And that's the point of my rant.

I joined ATS not only to engage in discussion on a wide variety of topics, many of which are rarely pursued in other boards, but because it appeared to be well-moderated. I noticed that there was little tolerance for rabbit trails and trolls, uncivil behavior, etc. Many boards to a poor job of these things or only allow one view to be expressed. But after joining I came to realize that as a Christian I was immediately a member of the ATS Ghetto Dweller class.

Naturally I spend more time in the Religion, Faith, and Theology Forum than elsewhere, but the vaunted moderation I just described does not operate there as elsewhere. Violations of either clear TOCs or "decorum" by even the most lax standards are ignored unless someone files a complaint, and even then one never holds one's breath for a response. When a response does come, it is usually a slap on a very general and undirected wrist, and sometimes the plaintiff is penalized on a technicality, per my recent personal experience. In every area of the board, it's open season on Christians while some religious views seem to be a protected class, evidenced by rapidly-deleted posts or threads criticizing (even mildly) the preferred groups. ATS, in my estimation, is not so much pro-atheist as it is anti-Christian, though I'm sure such a claim will be vehemently denied--- all while moderator threats of disciplinary actions in favor of Christians continue to be unenforced.

I am not making any claims of how pervasive this is, and no, I didn't go around collecting hard data and links to everything. This is just my impression and my personal experience. All I know is that I will be penalized for saying this, one way or another, regardless of how much evidence I might have presented. But what does a ghetto dweller have to lose? As it says in Prov. 13:8, "the poor hear no threats"; a Christian in ATS has no status or respect to lose. I think it's safe to say that no Christian comes here to be popular or to amass those stars and flags. We come here to do exactly as those people who are obsessed with beliefs they don't hold: evangelize as well as socialize. Everybody is an evangelist in some respect or degree; people love to have other people agree with them. But in an ironic reversal of what Christian missionaries are accused of doing, these anti-Christian missionaries compulsively target Christians relentlessly and chase them all over the place.

As with my previous rant, I expect mostly negative feedback; it just goes with the territory of The Ghetto. Will the anti-Christian evangelists be able to restrain themselves, or will it be another round of shooting fish in a barrel that the "cops" will ignore? Will I be hauled off to "jail"? I frankly don't care at this point. Truth needs to be spoken, and convictions aren't convictions if we hide them for fear of retaliation. I say what I need to say according to my convictions, but at least I don't follow anti-Christians around to attack them all the time. What would be the point anyway, knowing the rules don't apply evenly?

There are other rants where people complain about how they or their group are treated; let's hope this one isn't singled out for prosecution. ;-)

This is just another effect of the mass over-saturation and disease-like spread of mainstream religion throughout the world.

Anything or any discussion to do with religion will never be completely fair or just.

What is it the French say?

C'est la vie.

reply to post by SaberTruth


I agree totally, any christian thread just blows up with negative posts and if heaven forbid we do say something about religion we have to endure 50 posts of people demanding proof that our god exists.

reply to post by TechUnique


You raise an interesting perspective: Is persecution of a group the fault of the persecutors or the group? In the world, Jews are blamed for pretty much everything, women get blamed for quite a lot, and Christians seem to be the most popular whipping boy around here. It reminds me of what I observe in Islam: that some people are to be exterminated simply because they live and breathe, which is offensive to them. The mere fact of Christianity's existence is an offense to some people, so naturally they will say it's our own fault that we are in The Ghetto.

Originally posted by pyrodude
reply to post by SaberTruth

 

I agree totally, any christian thread just blows up with negative posts and if heaven forbid we do say something about religion we have to endure 50 posts of people demanding proof that our god exists.

Ain't that the truth! It's as if we are told to run a marathon with a pack of rabid dogs nipping at our heels the whole way. We're not supposed to complain but just keep ignoring them. Right....

reply to post by SaberTruth


I have nothing wrong with the faith itself. It has helped a lot of people and done amazing things for the community and the human race as a whole.

Its the hierarchy-like structure and the corruption that comes with the power that has caused bad and given a bad image for all Christians.

So basically, in my opinion. General Ignorance from the population coupled with mistakes made by your church in the past have led to this 'Ghetto-ing' of the Christian folk in many places online and in real life.

reply to post by SaberTruth


Don't judge those who do not have your particular point of view. Engage them in civil debate and if it turns into a flame war, ignore them. There will always be new threads and eventually, all our threads get buried in the mounds of other threads. They may be there for historical documentation, but no one posts to them much anymore.

Stay with your standards and accept that others have a different point of view. You grow that way.

Originally posted by TechUnique
reply to post by SaberTruth

 

I have nothing wrong with the faith itself. It has helped a lot of people and done amazing things for the community and the human race as a whole.

Its the hierarchy-like structure and the corruption that comes with the power that has caused bad and given a bad image for all Christians.

So basically, in my opinion. General Ignorance from the population coupled with mistakes made by your church in the past have led to this 'Ghetto-ing' of the Christian folk in many places online and in real life.

I completely agree about the hierarchy and corruption, and write a lot against that in my blog. You might find this book of mine of interest: Nicolaitan: Power and Control in Christianity. But I still think that many who attack Christianity do so unjustly; every Christian at ATS is not responsible for all of Christianity, any more than every atheist is responsible for Communism or Stalin. There needs to be some personal accountability on the part of our critics as well.

reply to post by SaberTruth


I just wrote in some guys thread this. you can not logically prove god exist or that he doesn't exist there is a reason for this its called free choice. Proving his existence takes away free choice. omnipotence means he exist between both realms. Its sad to say but ill informed Christians fighting to prove god exist are in fact the reason for the stupidity. Thats why its a faith and not a fact but i do agree with you that bringing it up is like swimming in fish blood surround by sharks.

Originally posted by pcrobotwolf
I just wrote in some guys thread this. you can not logically prove god exist or that he doesn't exist there is a reason for this its called free choice. Proving his existence takes away free choice. omnipotence means he exist between both realms. Its sad to say but ill informed Christians fighting to prove god exist are in fact the reason for the stupidity. Thats why its a faith and not a fact but i do agree with you that bringing it up is like swimming in fish blood surround by sharks.

The important question is context: is it fair to demand proof if the person you're demanding it from never said "This PROVES that God exists" but merely "This is why I AM CONVINCED that God exists"? Too many anti-Christians see any statement of faith as a claim of proof. So hopefully "some guy" actually said he could prove the existence of God.

But here you make an unqualified, blanket claim that we are to blame for all opposition against us, and that is patently false. It's one thing to disagree with someone's claim, but quite another to blame them for the "stupidity" of their persecutors. Surely you would agree that people are solely responsible for their own actions, right? Or are anti-Christians powerless to resist or control themselves? This is exactly like the Islamic stimulus/response: Christians do not worship Allah so they are to blame for any and all violence they suffer. Blaming the victim is not a sign of maturity or civility or intelligence... let alone "free thinking".

And it isn't as though posting one's faith in the Religion forum is where we should expect to find "sharks". Why are the sharks allowed in there in the first place? Are you saying that Christians are to blame for venturing anywhere in ATS, especially outside of The Ghetto? Do anti-Christians bear no personal responsibility? If so, then ATS is a very uncivilized and anarchic place indeed.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by SaberTruth

 

Don't judge those who do not have your particular point of view. Engage them in civil debate and if it turns into a flame war, ignore them. There will always be new threads and eventually, all our threads get buried in the mounds of other threads. They may be there for historical documentation, but no one posts to them much anymore.

Stay with your standards and accept that others have a different point of view. You grow that way.

Good advice for everyone, including anti-Christians. Do you also tell this to them? Do you "judge" Christians? Most antagonists I've encountered here do a LOT of judging, and have zero interest in civil debate. As for ignoring them, read what I wrote to other commenters here about "sharks in the water" or "running a marathon while being chased by rabid dogs".

aww. Ghetto.
I get aggravated sometimes too at the blatant stupidity. Even seeing "xtians", is a little dig I find quite annoying.

Yet sometimes I see posters responding to attacks with so much grace and kindness, they outshine the others.
I personally stay off those threads for the most part though, because the sacrilege and blasphemy sorta hurts my feelings, or pushes some button I can't quite determine. Anger, sometimes, tears - others. I'm not cut out for them, and probably wind up being just as cruel as the rest of them. Name-calling, even. lol.

But I agree. Persecution of Christians is rampant here, but remember, we were warned and we can brace ourselves because it's going to get worse. Chin up.

reply to post by SaberTruth


I agree wholeheartedly.

Hate fuelled ignorance instigated attacks against Christians are too common on this forum and really bring down the general vibe and decorum of this site.

Tis sad.

Originally posted by SaberTruth
All I know is that I will be penalized for saying this, one way or another, regardless of how much evidence I might have presented.

Let us know the penalty, will you? I'm very curious as to what you consider to be a penalty.

And of course, if you present no evidence, there really is no argument or discussion to be had. It's all your personal perception... that we're supposed to just trust. And that can be fairly accurate or it can be way off. Sometimes perception can be WAY different than the truth of the matter.

What would be the point anyway, knowing the rules don't apply evenly?

It's really too bad you didn't include examples or links to where the rules are unevenly applied. I'm afraid your word (being obviously biased) is not good enough.

I think you're imagining that you, as a Christian, are being treated differently (and worse) than everyone else. I hear Christians complain about this sort of thing all the time. The truth is, that for many years, Christians have held a special place in our society. They were respected and trusted. Their rituals and dogma were a part of society and religion held a place of honor.

As more and more people start realizing that religion isn't really for them and they start to live more secular lives and prefer personal spirituality over organized religion, the lofty position religion has held in society is likely slipping down so it's no longer that important or revered. People are realizing that religious people are no better, should have no more rights and are not any more 'special' than anyone else...

I suspect what you're feeling is equality and you don't like it. You're being treated just as anyone else is being treated and you don't like it because you're used to being more respected, having certain benefits JUST because you are religious.

But since you leave not one example of this mistreatment by mods, nor the punishment you've received for complaining, I really cannot say.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
aww. Ghetto.
I get aggravated sometimes too at the blatant stupidity. Even seeing "xtians", is a little dig I find quite annoying.

Yet sometimes I see posters responding to attacks with so much grace and kindness, they outshine the others.
I personally stay off those threads for the most part though, because the sacrilege and blasphemy sorta hurts my feelings, or pushes some button I can't quite determine. Anger, sometimes, tears - others. I'm not cut out for them, and probably wind up being just as cruel as the rest of them. Name-calling, even. lol.

But I agree. Persecution of Christians is rampant here, but remember, we were warned and we can brace ourselves because it's going to get worse. Chin up.

edit on 6/7/2011 by ladyinwaiting because: (no reason given)

Thanks.

Yeah, xtians, Jebus... we aren't to blame for that.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Let us know the penalty, will you? I'm very curious as to what you consider to be a penalty.

A price to pay, whether through the usual "Christophobial" responses or official ATS action. The former will be self-evident, and the latter might be, but if not I'll be sure and report it-- if said report isn't quickly deleted.

And of course, if you present no evidence, there really is no argument or discussion to be had. It's all your personal perception... that we're supposed to just trust. And that can be fairly accurate or it can be way off. Sometimes perception can be WAY different than the truth of the matter.

Hence the Rant section and my explicit statements of personal perception up front. I never asked anyone to trust or believe me, or that they are "supposed" to do anything at all.

It's really too bad you didn't include examples or links to where the rules are unevenly applied. I'm afraid your word (being obviously biased) is not good enough.

Not good enough for what, my personal observation? Did I say I was trying to prove anything? But at the risk of being fined again for violating TOC, I suppose I'll humor you:

In the "A Message" thread, an admitted and proud Satanist posted some vile "I hate you" tirade, and nothing was done. I finally complained through the approved channels. Next thing I knew, I was docked points (whatever that means) for a one-line comment earlier in the thread. See the sequence? TOC violation goes untouched, Christian complains, Christian is penalized. So I complained to a different mod. A general slap on the wrist about "off topic posts will henceforth be deleted" was posted. Another hostile off-topic comment was quickly made. No response from the mod. If that is nothing to you, there's nothing we have to discuss.

I think you're imagining

Of course you do. Thanks for sharing your opinion.

People are realizing that religious people are no better, should have no more rights and are not any more 'special' than anyone else...

We're not asking for privileges, and I'm talking about ATS, remember? I'm asking for equality, not superiority. Funny how that little distinction got missed.

I suspect what you're feeling is equality and you don't like it.

Originally posted by SaberTruth

Originally posted by pcrobotwolf
I just wrote in some guys thread this. you can not logically prove god exist or that he doesn't exist there is a reason for this its called free choice. Proving his existence takes away free choice. omnipotence means he exist between both realms. Its sad to say but ill informed Christians fighting to prove god exist are in fact the reason for the stupidity. Thats why its a faith and not a fact but i do agree with you that bringing it up is like swimming in fish blood surround by sharks.

The important question is context: is it fair to demand proof if the person you're demanding it from never said "This PROVES that God exists" but merely "This is why I AM CONVINCED that God exists"? Too many anti-Christians see any statement of faith as a claim of proof. So hopefully "some guy" actually said he could prove the existence of God.

But here you make an unqualified, blanket claim that we are to blame for all opposition against us, and that is patently false. It's one thing to disagree with someone's claim, but quite another to blame them for the "stupidity" of their persecutors. Surely you would agree that people are solely responsible for their own actions, right? Or are anti-Christians powerless to resist or control themselves? This is exactly like the Islamic stimulus/response: Christians do not worship Allah so they are to blame for any and all violence they suffer. Blaming the victim is not a sign of maturity or civility or intelligence... let alone "free thinking".

And it isn't as though posting one's faith in the Religion forum is where we should expect to find "sharks". Why are the sharks allowed in there in the first place? Are you saying that Christians are to blame for venturing anywhere in ATS, especially outside of The Ghetto? Do anti-Christians bear no personal responsibility? If so, then ATS is a very uncivilized and anarchic place indeed.

edit on 7-6-2011 by SaberTruth because: (no reason given)

yes some guy did say he could prove it. Also i said the reason for the stupidity not that they are stupid just the situation is stupid it allows people to attack their religion instead of them. I think you are on edge I'm in fact a christian. Going on the attack because you feel slighted isn't a defense its an offense and isn't the sign of a maturity. In fact if you read what i wrote you will see i agree with you. Plus its not your right to judge these people as bad or evil or uncivilized. A faith untested is no faith at all.

Originally posted by pcrobotwolf
yes some guy did say he could prove it. Also i said the reason for the stupidity not that they are stupid just the situation is stupid it allows people to attack their religion instead of them.

Nobody denies that people can make stupid arguments. My point in this Rant is that even when Christians are in the Religion area trying to talk about what they believe, anti-Christians swarm over it and make it impossible.

I think you are on edge I'm in fact a christian. Going on the attack because you feel slighted isn't a defense its an offense and isn't the sign of a maturity.

Attack? A rant is an attack? What would you NOT consider an attack, that allows Christians to freely express their opinions? Rather than me being the defensive and "on edge" one, it appears that it is you, since you perceive a personal rant as an attack. And please define "a maturity".

reply to post by SaberTruth


Yep, I do make snap judgments (some call them opinions). But I try to step back and take a breath before I reply though I am not always successful. I try to be true to my heart & mind.

I do believe in God and thus have faith, but not in religion. I consider myself more of a spiritual type. I consider the King James Bible, Torah and Koran. Etc, to be more historical text with lessons to be learned from them.

Some people, who troll, flame, whatever, do so just to make themselves relevant in their own minds. They are non-entities in my mind, someone to ignore.

People who have opposing views and are willing to discuss them civilly, have my utmost respect.

Originally posted by pcrobotwolf
reply to post by SaberTruth

 

I just wrote in some guys thread this. you can not logically prove god exist or that he doesn't exist there is a reason for this its called free choice. Proving his existence takes away free choice. omnipotence means he exist between both realms. Its sad to say but ill informed Christians fighting to prove god exist are in fact the reason for the stupidity. Thats why its a faith and not a fact but i do agree with you that bringing it up is like swimming in fish blood surround by sharks.

To me God is like the wind.....you can feel God...but cannot see him....yet you know he is there.