Illuminati and Freemasons in cahoots....

You attribute 'Masonic' imagery to him and for the institution of the one dollar bill. You have proved neither.

Sure I did, you just need to review my posts.

I have to do no such thing. YOU made the claim. YOU provide the evidence. Where does the unfinished pyramid appear in Masonic ritual? All Masonic ritual is available online, link something.

I don't know about rituals, but it appears on plenty of lodge emblems, rings, greeting cards, coins and a lot of other masonic things, it is a masonic symbol.

See above. The person who put the unfinished pyramid on the reverse of the Great Seal was NOT a Mason. Unless you can prove otherwise you are incorrect, AGAIN.

I'm sorry but you need to review the posts, the eye and the pyramid comes from the Jefferson seal.
As for that I have pointed out in many posts, this include imagery, seals and explenations.

Who cares if they were not invloved? When Jefferson wanted Moses was Moses involved? Stop being retarded.

It does because the eye and the pyramid had to come from somewhere, the only possible source for this was marsonry.

What exactly does 'close to masons persons' mean? Was Ben Franklin looking over Jefferson's shoulder and saying, "No, no, put more Masonic symbols T.J., maybe some Illuminati stuff too."? Your assinine arguement presupposes that Thomas Jefferson somehow could not come up with a design without influence from the ONE Mason (Ben Franklin) who happened to be on the design team. Did you ever bother to look at Franklin's design? Almost NONE of his design made the final cut. Learn history.

Like wise, Jefferson was suronded by masonic dogma, his family members were masons, he even participated in lodges to masonic practices, the eye and the pyramid come from there. As for franklin design all of it made it, the whole pyramid is the seal it's just redesigned with the eye at the top of the pyramid.

Where is the unfinished pyramid on that design? Please hilight it so everyone can see that you are correct for once.

I'm sorry but there is a pyramid and an eye on the seal, "you want it unfinished" wow the nerves on you haha.
It's clear from the Jefferson seal where the concept came from.

Wait. Now it is 'ancient cultures' and 'pharoans(sic)'. You are all over the place again. The Eye of Providence has appeared in Christian iconograhpy and imagery LONG BEFORE the Great Seal. If you do not believe this you can again suffer yourself to be embarassed, this time in the presence of the posters on this thread.

It did not originate from christianity, as stated in the description the seal it's self was about ancient cultures before christianity, these elements came later in christianity, there were no eyes and pyramids in christianity, these came after the religion, with dogma and other things. The pre fabricated roman empire religion where they put occult elements into christianity and make it a religion. These are kabalistic elements, they originate from the ancient world and are occult in nature, they come from the masons.

Do you see a pattern in your childish behavior? Adults do not do this. READ BEFORE YOU POST.

I told you I don't see one and it's my personal opinion that masonry is an evil enterprise part of the roman empire.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Sure I did, you just need to review my posts.

There is no need to review your posts as they only show that you THINK Jefferson instituted the one dollar bill (35 years after his death) and that there is no unfinished pyramid in his design contribution to the Great Seal.

I don't know about rituals..

That is an understatement...

...but it appears on plenty of lodge emblems, rings, greeting cards, coins and a lot of other masonic things, it is a masonic symbol.

Which all came AFTER the adoption of the Great Seal. You have yet to provide DATED EVIDENCE to the contrary.

I'm sorry but you need to review the posts, the eye and the pyramid comes from the Jefferson seal.
As for that I have pointed out in many posts, this include imagery, seals and explenations.

There is no pyramid in the Jefferson design. You do know the difference between a triangle and a pyramid, right?

It does because the eye and the pyramid had to come from somewhere, the only possible source for this was marsonry.

Do a little homework for once and look up the Eye of Providence in Christian icongraphy and symbolism and see how far back they date. Then get back to everyone here and tell us which is older, that or the Great Seal.

Like wise, Jefferson was suronded by masonic dogma, his family members were masons, he even participated in lodges to masonic practices, the eye and the pyramid come from there.

He 'particpated in lodges to masonic practices'? Please explain what you meant by the gramatically impaired statement. Once again, you assert that the man could not think for himself and fell to the use of imagery that hled no relevance to him. HE WAS NOT A MASON.

Does the crucifix have any relevance to the non-Christian? The Ankh to the non-Egyptian? etc, ad infinitum.

I'm sorry but there is a pyramid and an eye on the seal, "you want it unfinished" wow the nerves on you haha.

Yeah, haha, it is so funny when someone asks you to clarify between TWO DIFFERENT symbols. I guess I expected to much from you to discern between a triangle and a pyramid. Sorry, I should have know better from past experiences.

It did not originate from christianity, as stated in the description the seal it's self was about ancient cultures before christianity, these elements came later in christianity, there were no eyes and pyramids in christianity, these came after the religion, with dogma and other things. The fabricated roman empire religion.

What the hell are you talking about? Christianity evolved over millenia to what it is now. The iconography was invloved in Christianity for centuries before appearing on the Great Seal. Where are you going with this?

They Eye of Providence is a recognized Christian symbol for the Trinity and the omnipresence of God.

I told you I don't see one

You did not see a brick church in the examples I gave or that mass was in Latin in the 16th century? Really?

You keep covering your ears, closing your eyes and screaming. It will not make the truth disappear.

...and it's my personal opinion that masonry is an evil enterprise part of the roman empire.

Everyone here knows your juevenile opinion as it is obviously the basis for every post you make as opposed to other who utilize facts instead. DEBATE THE TOPIC WITH FACTS NOT OPINIONS.

There is no need to review your posts as they only show that you THINK Jefferson instituted the one dollar bill (35 years after his death) and that there is no unfinished pyramid in his design contribution to the Great Seal.

Jefferson design includes a pyramid and an eye, other elemets from the jefferson seal apear on the seal.

Which all came AFTER the adoption of the Great Seal. You have yet to provide DATED EVIDENCE to the contrary.

No I would not say so, as for evidence you have Jefferson , the eye and the pyramid.
It's fullish of you to state that the pyramid and the eye came later in masonry, who the heck is going to beilive you ?

I'm sorry but you need to review the posts, the eye and the pyramid comes from the Jefferson seal.
As for that I have pointed out in many posts, this include imagery, seals and explenations.

There is no pyramid in the Jefferson design. You do know the difference between a triangle and a pyramid, right?

It's shape is the same ? and it's the same in concept with the pyramid and the eye on the seal ?

Do a little homework for once and look up the Eye of Providence in Christian icongraphy and symbolism and see how far back they date. Then get back to everyone here and tell us which is older, that or the Great Seal.

I'm sorry but that has been debated over and over again.

He 'particpated in lodges to masonic practices'? Please explain what you meant by the gramatically impaired statement. Once again, you assert that the man could not think for himself and fell to the use of imagery that hled no relevance to him. HE WAS NOT A MASON.

I did not say he was, where did you see that ? you a reading between the lines he participated, look what other people say.

srjarchives.tripod.com...
Current Masonic scholarship says that despite past belief, Thomas Jefferson was never actually a Freemason. Many Masonic sites, though, have not quite caught up with that, unfortunately. I (and others) am trying to keep him off the List of Freemasons -- KJVTRUTH is trying just as hard to put him back on.

Thomas Jefferson may not have been a Brother in a Lodge of Freemasons, but he had all of the prerequisites for membership in the Craft. His life could serve as a role model for all Masons; and, like Voltaire, he fulfilled the obligations of our Fraternity. First and foremost, he was a Freeman.

His hole family was masonic, his friends masons

Thomas Jefferson was often in Masonic company. His son-in-law Governor of Virginia Thomas M. Randolph, his favorite grandson Thomas Jefferson Randolph, and nephews Peter and Samuel Carr were all members of Door to Virtue Lodge No. 44, Albemarle County, Virginia. Freemasons such as Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Lafayette, and Jean Houdon were some of his closest associates in Europe. Masons whom he admired in America included George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Dr. Benjamin Rush, John Paul Jones, James Madison, James Monroe, Meriwether Lewis and William Clark.

Does the crucifix have any relevance to the non-Christian? The Ankh to the non-Egyptian? etc, ad infinitum.

Of course it does, for some it was a torture element, for some it held other meanings, astrological signs, for others it was an interpretation of duality, of the mariage between two parts combined. Just as the pyramid and the eye is for the masons as a symbol incorporated, I did not say it originated with masons.

Yeah, haha, it is so funny when someone asks you to clarify between TWO DIFFERENT symbols. I guess I expected to much from you to discern between a triangle and a pyramid. Sorry, I should have know better from past experiences.

No it's the same symbol, you have to be blind to see otherwise. The concept of the pyramid is the concept of the triangle.

The initial drawing was this.

It included the goddess of liberty, another masonic art work done in large proportion, the statue of liberty.
It's obvius that the seal is masonic in nature.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Jefferson design includes a pyramid and an eye, other elemets from the jefferson seal apear on the seal.

No. It is the Eye of Providence. The three sides of the TRIANGLE represent the Holy Trinity. A pyramid has more then three sides. Learn geometry.

No I would not say so, as for evidence you have Jefferson , the eye and the pyramid.
It's fullish of you to state that the pyramid and the eye came later in masonry, who the heck is going to beilive you ?

Jefferon's design does not incorporate and unfinished pyramid. It is an eye within a triangle. Completely different. There is no pyramid in Masonic ritual. The commerative coins come much later. You have yet to provide any evidence that shows that these came before or at the same time as the Great Seal's design.

I'm sorry but you need to review the posts, the eye and the pyramid comes from the Jefferson seal.
As for that I have pointed out in many posts, this include imagery, seals and explenations.

A triangle and a pyramid are two distinct geometric shapes. Can you tell the difference?

It's shape is the same ? and it's the same in concept with the pyramid and the eye on the seal ?

Really? Then answer this; how many sides does a pyramid have and how many sides does a triangle have?

I'm sorry but that has been debated over and over again.

You should be sorry. You insisted that there were no Christian uses of the Eye of Providence prior to the Great Seal. There is icongraphic evidence to prove that it was in use hundreds of years prior to the Great Seal's design and adoption.

I did not say he was, where did you see that ? you a reading between the lines he participated, look what other people say.

I 'a reading between the lines'? How about you just read period. Here you go again using a blog as a source. BLOGS ARE NOT SOURCES.

srjarchives.tripod.com...
Current Masonic scholarship says that despite past belief, Thomas Jefferson was never actually a Freemason. Many Masonic sites, though, have not quite caught up with that, unfortunately. I (and others) am trying to keep him off the List of Freemasons -- KJVTRUTH is trying just as hard to put him back on.

It says that he was not a Mason. No kidding. There is no evidence to prove otherwise. Get over it.

Thomas Jefferson may not have been a Brother in a Lodge of Freemasons, but he had all of the prerequisites for membership in the Craft. His life could serve as a role model for all Masons; and, like Voltaire, he fulfilled the obligations of our Fraternity. First and foremost, he was a Freeman.

So he was an upstanding person, how does that make him a Mason? Anyone can espouse 'Masonic' virtues and not be influenced by Masonry. Any Mason will tell you the same thing, we do not have a patent on a good morality system.

His hole family was masonic, his friends masons

Thomas Jefferson was often in Masonic company. His son-in-law Governor of Virginia Thomas M. Randolph, his favorite grandson Thomas Jefferson Randolph, and nephews Peter and Samuel Carr were all members of Door to Virtue Lodge No. 44, Albemarle County, Virginia. Freemasons such as Thomas Paine, Voltaire, Lafayette, and Jean Houdon were some of his closest associates in Europe. Masons whom he admired in America included George Washington, Benjamin Franklin, Dr. Benjamin Rush, John Paul Jones, James Madison, James Monroe, Meriwether Lewis and William Clark.

His hole[sic] family? What about his father and brothers? Why would a son-in-law have any influence on the Great Seal considering he married Jefferson's daughter in 1790, AFTER his contributions to designing the Seal? DO YOU EVEN READ THESE ARTICLES BEFORE YOU POST THEM? You do this in almost every thread you participate in, post extraneous links that are temporally irrelevant. I am sure you will somehow try to explain why his son-in-law is still relevant.

Of course it does, for some it was a torture element..

Really? How has been crucified recently?

...for some it held other meanings, astrological signs for others it was an interpretation of duality, of the mariage between two parts combined. Just as the pyramid and the eye is for the masons as a symbol incorporated, I did not say it originated with masons.

No kidding the Eye of Providence did not orginate with Masons, I have been saying this all along. Neither did the unfinished pyramid.

No it's the same symbol, you have to be blind to see otherwise. The concept of the pyramid is the concept of the triangle.

No Pythagoras, they are two completely different geometric shapes and do not denote the same thing in symbology, otherwise the symbols would be redundant. You would not need to depict a triangle AND a pyramid.

The initial drawing was this.

It included the goddess of liberty, another masonic art work done in large proportion, the statue of liberty.
It's obvius that the seal is masonic in nature.

Where is the pyramid in that design?

Now Liberty is a Masonic emblem? I do not think Masons have a patent on Liberty. It was a concept that very much predated any forms of Masonry. It is obvious that you are quite delusional and see Masons under every bed. Get a grip.

No. It is the Eye of Providence. The three sides of the TRIANGLE represent the Holy Trinity. A pyramid has more then three sides. Learn geometry.

It does not as a representation in an image, it's just like a triangle, the concept from the seal with the pyramid and the eye is the same concept from jefferson only that the eye is on the inside, otherwise it looks the same.

Also It does not represent the trinity, there is no such thing in the bible, it's an invention picked up and implemented into Christianity, the bible does not talk about pyramids and triangles. These are symbols implemented into Christianity as I stated what you talk of has originated from the ancient world and there is no
mention from Jesus about this, this are how should I call them"ROMAN INVENTIONS"

Here it is

en.wikipedia.org...
Imagery of an all-seeing eye can be traced back to Egyptian mythology and the Eye of Horus. It also appears in Buddhism, where Buddha is also regularly referred to as the "Eye of the World" throughout Buddhist scriptures (e.g. Mahaparinibbana Sutta) and is represented as a trinity in the shape of a triangle known as the Tiratna, or Triple Gem.

In Medieval and Renaissance European iconography, the Eye (often with the addition of an enclosing triangle) was an explicit image of the Christian Trinity. Seventeenth-century depictions of the Eye of Providence sometimes show it surrounded by clouds or sun burs

They took it from other cultures and implemented it into Christianity, I don't see how you can make a point out of this since the design of the seals were not about Christianity but about the occult, what has the lady of liberty Libertas has to do with Christianity ? none or should I say ISHTAR or ISSIS ? Yet more of your yet "rich informative disinformation"

The same notion with the eye again coming from masons wearing aprons, you are so silly, it's clear where it comes from.

Jefferon's design does not incorporate and unfinished pyramid. It is an eye within a triangle. Completely different. There is no pyramid in Masonic ritual. The commerative coins come much later. You have yet to provide any evidence that shows that these came before or at the same time as the Great Seal's design.

I'm sorry but there are lots and lots of emblems with the same symbol in masonry not only related to comemorative coins.

A triangle and a pyramid are two distinct geometric shapes. Can you tell the difference?
Really? Then answer this; how many sides does a pyramid have and how many sides does a triangle have?

No they are on paper, it's a triangle, it's the same meaning. Were not talking about 3D objects, and a pyramid in 3d are just a bunch of triangles put in one peace.

You should be sorry. You insisted that there were no Christian uses of the Eye of Providence prior to the Great Seal. There is icongraphic evidence to prove that it was in use hundreds of years prior to the Great Seal's design and adoption.

Only that it comes from ancient pagan places, I was right, the religion of the roman empire, and the implementation of symbols and the forgery of the Christian religion that has nothing to do with Jesus
"THE SHARADE" of the Roman Empire with little minions running in the backround such as free masonry.
Just like the coruption of the jewish fate, same go's for christianity.

I 'a reading between the lines'? How about you just read period. Here you go again using a blog as a source. BLOGS ARE NOT SOURCES.

It's irelevant I can find the seal anywhere, and as you can see the picture with the writing is not from the writing on the blog, it's very informative you should read it, it states that all comes from Egypt and ancient world.

It says that he was not a Mason. No kidding. There is no evidence to prove otherwise. Get over it.

I never said he was a mason, you are putting words in my mouth.

So he was an upstanding person, how does that make him a Mason? Anyone can espouse 'Masonic' virtues and not be influenced by Masonry. Any Mason will tell you the same thing, we do not have a patent on a good morality system.

His world revolved around masons, his relatives were masons, lots of his friends were masons, he was influenced by masonic elements when he made the seal, no dahhh.

His hole[sic] family? What about his father and brothers? Why would a son-in-law have any influence on the Great Seal considering he married Jefferson's daughter in 1790, AFTER his contributions to designing the Seal? DO YOU EVEN READ THESE ARTICLES BEFORE YOU POST THEM? You do this in almost every thread you participate in, post extraneous links that are temporally irrelevant. I am sure you will somehow try to explain why his son-in-law is still relevant.

This is you splitting the hair, it is clear that he revolved around masons and was influenced by masons.

No kidding the Eye of Providence did not orginate with Masons, I have been saying this all along. Neither did the unfinished pyramid.

I did not say it originated with masons, it was incorporated into masonry, you are inventing things again.

Where is the pyramid in that design?

It's a triangle, it has the same meaning as the pyramid.

Now Liberty is a Masonic emblem? I do not think Masons have a patent on Liberty. It was a concept that very much predated any forms of Masonry. It is obvious that you are quite delusional and see Masons under every bed. Get a grip.

The statue of liberty was made by french masons and was given as a gift to united states, just like the great seal was made by masons, I was reffering to it in this manner.

Masons don't have patents on these things but they have incorporated them into the craft, you can deny it all you like, the Liberty statue is a masonic art, made by the masons, just like the seal of the US.

This broken line with it's not ours will not work anymore. You see as I told you take the pentagram, satanists have incorporated the pentagram into their craft, there for they associate with it, just like christians associate with the cross, it's not originaly a christian symbol is it.

Originally posted by pepsi78
It does not as a representation in an image, it's just like a triangle, the concept from the seal with the pyramid and the eye is the same concept from jefferson only that the eye is on the inside, otherwise it looks the same.

A pyramid has more then three sides. The Great Seal depicts The Eye of Providence (in a TRIANGLE) above an unfinished pyramid. These are two distinct geomteric shapes, others wise it would have been a triangle above a triangle or a pyramid above a pyramid. Stop being purposefully obtuse.

Also It does not represent the trinity, there is no such thing in the bible, it's an invention picked up and implemented into Christianity, the bible does not talk about pyramids and triangles. These are symbols implemented into Christianity as I stated what you talk of has originated from the ancient world and there is no
mention from Jesus about this, this are how should I call them"ROMAN INVENTIONS"

How cares if it was not in the Bible, neither were Christmas Day or Easter Day and both are celebrated by Christians. It does not matter that both were pagan holidays, they are now Christian holidays and recognized as such. The same for the Eye of Providence. To a CHRISTIAN it means the Holy Trinity as your source below proves. It does not matter where it came from, only what the user believes it to be.

In Medieval and Renaissance European iconography, the Eye (often with the addition of an enclosing triangle) was an explicit image of the Christian Trinity. Seventeenth-century depictions of the Eye of Providence sometimes show it surrounded by clouds or sun burs

Thank you for agreeing about what it means to CHRISTIANS.

They took it from other cultures and implemented it into Christianity, I don't see how you can make a point out of this since the design of the seals were not about Christianity but about the occult, what has the lady of liberty Libertas has to do with Christianity ? none or should I say ISHTAR or ISSIS ? Yet more of your yet "rich informative disinformation"

The point is to the founding fathers it represented Diety, as in God. The end. Period. No other interpretation.

Who said Liberty had anything to do with Christian iconography? Stop using logical fallacies. Yeah, I guess the French gave us the Statue of Ishtar (Issis) because everyone does not want liberty but, what, Egyptianism? I do not think this thread can get much more retarded.

Oh, by the way. It was not Liberty in Jefferson's design.

Thomas Jefferson also suggested allegorical scenes. For the front of the seal: children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night. For the reverse: Hengist and Horsa, the two brothers who were the legendary leaders of the first Anglo-Saxon settlers in Britain.

Oh, no!. You did it AGAIN! You posted something without reading it. When will you stop doing this?

The same notion with the eye again coming from masons wearing aprons, you are so silly, it's clear where it comes from.

Um, when was that image made? Let me help you. You know, that the Capitol building was not even constructed when the Great Seal was designed? And no one said that Masons do not use the Eye of Providence. Stop changing the goal posts.

I'm sorry but there are lots and lots of emblems with the same symbol in masonry not only related to comemorative coins.

Show us one that predates the Great Seal.

No they are on paper, it's a triangle, it's the same meaning. Were not talking about 3D objects, and a pyramid in 3d are just a bunch of triangles put in one peace.

Hey genius. Did you notice that they depict the unfinished pyramid in a three dimensional manner on the Great Seal? If they were not two distinct geometric forms why would they do that?

Only that it comes from ancient pagan places, I was right, the religion of the roman empire, and the implementation of symbols and the forgery of the Christian religion that has nothing to do with Jesus
"THE SHARADE"(sic) of the Roman Empire with little minions running in the backround such as free masonry.
Just like the coruption of the jewish fate, same go's for christianity.

What?

*twirls finger next to ear*

It's irelevant I can find the seal anywhere, and as you can see the picture with the writing is not from the writing on the blog, it's very informative you should read it, it states that all comes from Egypt and ancient world.

Who cares what someone's blog states? Anyone can post whatever unresearched nonesense on the web and you can link to it. LEARN HOW TO USE CREDIBLE SOURCES!

I never said he was a mason, you are putting words in my mouth.

How can I do that when your foot is constantly in the way?

His world revolved around masons, his relatives were masons, lots of his friends were masons, he was influenced by masonic elements when he made the seal, no dahhh.

'His world revolved around Masons'? How can anyone except an arrogant buffoon claim to know the inner sentiments of a man that has been dead for nearly two hundred years? Did you read his auto-biographical accounts and come to this conclusion or did you just make up more crap?

This is you splitting the hair, it is clear that he revolved around masons and was influenced by masons.

Why is it when you claim something (influence of a son-in-law that he met after the Seal was designed) and are then proven WRONG is it 'splitting hairs'? No. It is you claimed something AGAIN and did not bother to research it first. Stop skirting your egregious errors a admit that you did not know what you were talking about. If you were to enter a credibility poll you would not do very well.

I did not say it originated with masons, it was incorporated into masonry, you are inventing things again.

You said the only place it could have come from was from Masonry. Do I need to put your quote up again? Stop backtracking.

It's a triangle, it has the same meaning as the pyramid.

Are a cube and a square the same thing? Think before answering.

The statue of liberty was made by french masons and was given as a gift to united states, just like the great seal was made by masons, I was reffering to it in this manner.

Which Masons, besides Franklin, particpated in the design of the Great Seal? You said Mason(S), plural. List them.

Masons don't have patents on these things but they have incorporated them into the craft, you can deny it all you like, the Liberty statue is a masonic art, made by the masons, just like the seal of the US.

There is no imagery of Liberty in Masonic ritual. I have no issues telling people about Masonic symbolism. I can list numerous symbols that appear in Masonry. Why would I admit to some and not others? What does me hiding them do?

This broken line with it's not ours will not work anymore. You see as I told you take the pentagram, satanists have incorporated the pentagram into their craft, there for they associate with it, just like christians associate with the cross, it's not originaly a christian symbol is it.

No one said the Eye of Providence does not appear in Masonic ritual. It does, in the Master Mason Lecture. The unfinished pyramid (or any pyramid) does not. They are two seperate and distinct images. STOP CONFUSING THEM.

reply to post by pepsi78

The seal is not Masonic nor does any Grand Lodge ever said that it was a sanctioned design. History proves you are wrong.

Again, Jefferson was not a Mason and only Franklin was. E Pluribus Unum has nothing to do with Freemasonry.

You really need to study more on the history of the $1 bill rather than some irrational thought on the subject.

You attribute the seal to Jefferson, but then say its Masonic, which it is neither. I and others have laid out the timeline on the matter.

I mean the majority of the seal was designed by Charles Thomson who was not a Mason. Your "proof" is nothing more than misguided opinion.

reply to post by pepsi78

You provided us with your opinion, not fact. You have yet to say where in Freemasonry this pyramid gains its precedence. Our symbols revolve around our ritual. Please tell us in which ritual this pyramid makes its appearance.

The eye is used as a Christian symbol and is even mentioned in the Bible (see Psalm 32:8, Psalm 33:18, and Ezekiel 20:17). The eye within the triangle is symbol of the Holy Trinity and that is a very Christian theme. Remember though that the triangle is not equal to the pyramid. Two different symbols.

reply to post by pepsi78

It may be your opinion, but it is not founded upon truth or fact.

reply to post by de1111codEiT

No worries, he thought you said pentagram and thought maybe you were discussing the Order of the Eastern Star.

We're not dishonest nor cronies. Again, we deny ignorance and that which just isn't true.

You haven't proved anything. If you look at my original reply to you, you'll see my criticism of the OP. Opinions and empty statements means very little in the realm of debate.

Freemasonry exists to assist those in need and our charities spend millions a day on charitable causes. This year alone I have donated close to or possibly over $2,000 to charity (Masonic and not).

reply to post by de1111codEiT

First off, there is no need to be such a rude prick. Second, as I said before, if the Masons did indeed design the Great Seal it would have looked a lot different than the one which was selected. Do you really think we'd make something so obvious? It's just simple coincidence. The phrases that were picked to surround the unfinished pyramid were picked by a non-Mason.

If you think the Great Seal is a Masonic invention then your perception is off. I have also seen with my eyes, but the difference is I am a member and have seen the ceremonies, none of them include a pyramid (finished or unfinished).

His ideas about you are not fringe, they are becoming common knowledge and are being accepted as fact, especially on sites like this one (see first reply to thread)

Yes because the internet is a beacon of facts [/sarc]

Thank you for agreeing about what it means to CHRISTIANS.

Yes except you forgot to quote me on the rest of the text, you ripped it apart.

The Great Seal depicts The Eye of Providence (in a TRIANGLE) above an unfinished pyramid. These are two distinct geomteric shapes, others wise it would have been a triangle above a triangle or a pyramid above a pyramid. Stop being purposefully obtuse.

The eye of providence and the unfinished pyramid.

www.strayreality.com...
The earliest known history of the All-Seeing Eye, dates back to ancient Babylon. It was worshipped as the Solar Eye... It was also represented as the eye of Jove or Jupiter.
It has been called the eye of Phoebus or Apollo.

And then

It was also referred to as the eye of Baal, and as the eye of providence. Illuminati and the "EYE": The Illuminati, founded by Weishaupt in 1776, adopted as their Seal "a 13-layered unfinished pyramid with the
capstone missing. Hovering above is a sun-rayed triangle, as if waiting to be lowered to complete the structure.

The seal is a masonic symbol incorporated into rings, coins, greeting cards, lodges emblems and other things
knowing it came from the illuminaty, masonry=illuminaty.

Yeah I thought so.

Stop hiding around Christianity, the eye of providence comes from somewhere else, it an addition to Christianity from the Roman Empire(the control freaks) and has another origin. The pyramid and the eye is a masonic implementation on the dollar bill.

The point is to the founding fathers it represented Diety, as in God. The end. Period. No other interpretation.

No the founding fathers some were masons others had connection to masons, they knew where it came from.
This just shows that it's a masonic art work, remember Jefferson designed the seal and it later got incorporated as a pyramid and an eye, Jefferson was very connected to masonry and masons.

And remember the final seal.

The Illuminati, founded by Weishaupt in 1776, adopted as their Seal "a 13-layered unfinished pyramid with the capstone missing.

And as quoted

en.wikipedia.org...
The phrase is used both for the physical seal itself (which is kept by the United States Secretary of State), and more generally for the design impressed upon it. The Great Seal was first used publicly in 1782.

Meaning before 1782, meaning a connection to the seal, the same seal was connected to the illuminaty, they had a connection. Meaning all you say is non sense.

Remember 1776 and then 1782 the use of the seal, they got the seal from each other before it was made public, this just shows the origin, frist origin illuminaty second aparance of the same symbol on the dollar bill.

Since the seal was not made public until 1782 it means there was a connection.

It came from Christianity haba haba ? you hide like a little boy under the vale of Christianity, it's a cover for masons, fabricated for cover and control, you pop up and say look it's Christian, but when people take things apart everything becomes visible and the gag is up.

Yeah, I guess the French gave us the Statue of Ishtar (Issis) because everyone does not want liberty but, what, Egyptianism? I do not think this thread can get much more retarded.

No it was the masons, not just the french but the masons, they made it.
It's Ishtar isn't it Ishtar, the masons designed a statue of Ishtar, it's who she is Lady Libertas and remember they were masons, french masons. As for freedom and liberty not by consuming the self, if that is what you call liberty, freedom to you= a flat line I'm afraid.

Ishtar, a gift, the goddess of war, freedom and love.

Oh, by the way. It was not Liberty in Jefferson's design.

Yes it is, it's what it says.

The Goddess of Liberty in a corslet of armour alluding to the present Times, holding in her right hand the Spear & Cap and with her left supporting the Shield of the states."

Um, when was that image made? Let me help you. You know, that the Capitol building was not even constructed when the Great Seal was designed? And no one said that Masons do not use the Eye of Providence. Stop changing the goal posts.

It's a masonic interpretation of the suroundings, I would not be surprised if it was made by masons.

Show us one that predates the Great Seal.

I did, its the illuminaty, as I told you, you make a great point proving my point.

Hey genius. Did you notice that they depict the unfinished pyramid in a three dimensional manner on the Great Seal? If they were not two distinct geometric forms why would they do that?

It has the same quonotation, the unfinished pyramid represents what needs to be finished so the pyramid can be complete, I told you a triangle and a pyramid has the same meaning on paper, it's just another triangle form.

Who cares what someone's blog states? Anyone can post whatever unresearched nonesense on the web and you can link to it. LEARN HOW TO USE CREDIBLE SOURCES!

I did but you magicly do not quote on them, you decided to skip


Why is it when you claim something (influence of a son-in-law that he met after the Seal was designed) and are then proven WRONG is it 'splitting hairs'? No. It is you claimed something AGAIN and did not bother to research it first. Stop skirting your egregious errors a admit that you did not know what you were talking about. If you were to enter a credibility poll you would not do very well.

You said the only place it could have come from was from Masonry. Do I need to put your quote up again? Stop backtracking.

That is correct they had the knowlege of the object and where it came from, you make my point just fine, they knew about the unfinished pyramid and the illuminati symbol.

A pyramid has more then three sides.
Are a cube and a square the same thing? Think before answering.

On paper in 2d yes, and a cube is made out of squares, it's what it is.
Same thing a triangle and an eye at the top

No one said the Eye of Providence does not appear in Masonic ritual. It does, in the Master Mason Lecture. The unfinished pyramid (or any pyramid) does not. They are two seperate and distinct images. STOP CONFUSING THEM.

No it's the same concept.

It's just a bunch of hog wash from you, small talk , trying to rip apart facts.
It's what masons do best, now I expect the masonic mob on ats to take hold.

Masonic tomb,

Lies lies after lies, yet more evidence to sustain the cause.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Yes except you forgot to quote me on the rest of the text, you ripped it apart.

Because you have a sad prediliction to post irrelevant information. I pointed out that to Christians the Eye of Providence means Diety, specifically the Trinity. What it meant earlier is irrelevant as what matters is what it means in a contemporary setting. LEARN ABOUT TIMELINES.

And stop with the crybaby appeal to emotion nonsense about leaving things out. You constantly fail to acknowledge EVERY mistake you make and we will see what you do with the others in this very post.

The eye of providence and the unfinished pyramid.

www.strayreality.com...
The earliest known history of the All-Seeing Eye, dates back to ancient Babylon. It was worshipped as the Solar Eye... It was also represented as the eye of Jove or Jupiter.
It has been called the eye of Phoebus or Apollo.

What it meant is no longer relevant. To the Founding Fathers it meant Diety.

And then

It was also referred to as the eye of Baal, and as the eye of providence. Illuminati and the "EYE": The Illuminati, founded by Weishaupt in 1776, adopted as their Seal "a 13-layered unfinished pyramid with the
capstone missing. Hovering above is a sun-rayed triangle, as if waiting to be lowered to complete the structure.

The seal is a masonic symbol incorporated into rings, coins, greeting cards, lodges emblems and other things
knowing it came from the illuminaty(SIC), masonry=(SIC)illuminaty.

This is an outright fabrication. If you were to actually research the subject using a reputable source such as Terry Melanson's Pefectibilists you will find the Illuminati DID NOT use an all seeing eye or pyramid, they used a point within a circle as their symbol. STOP LYING.

You once again used questionable websites that parrot other questionable websites in an effort to concoct a theory that can not stand up to scrutiny. The book I referenced uses the actual writings of the Illuminati's founders and members. USE RELIABLE SOURCES.

Stop hiding around Christianity, the eye of providence comes from somewhere else, it an addition to Christianity from the Roman Empire(the control freaks) and has another origin. The pyramid and the eye is a masonic implementation on the dollar bill.

Implemented by which Masons? You failed to answer this question earlier. Who, besides Franklin, was a Mason?

No the founding fathers some were masons others had connection to masons, they knew where it came from.
This just shows that it's a masonic art work, remember Jefferson designed the seal and it later got incorporated as a pyramid and an eye, Jefferson was very connected to masonry and masons.

What does 'connection to Masons' mean? That if someone knows a Mason they somehow loose their ability to be a defined individual and can not compose a design without mental hindrance? More arrogance.

And remember the final seal.

The Illuminati, founded by Weishaupt in 1776, adopted as their Seal "a 13-layered unfinished pyramid with the capstone missing.

Find one non-conspiracy website that says this.

And as quoted

en.wikipedia.org...
The phrase is used both for the physical seal itself (which is kept by the United States Secretary of State), and more generally for the design impressed upon it. The Great Seal was first used publicly in 1782.

Meaning before 1782, meaning a connection to the seal, the same seal was connected to the illuminaty(SIC), they had a connection. Meaning all you say is non sense.

Remember 1776 and then 1782 the use of the seal, they got the seal from each other before it was made public, this just shows the origin, frist origin illuminaty second aparance of the same symbol on the dollar bill.

Your premise is founded on misinformation. Educate yourself before posting.

Since the seal was not made public until 1782 it means there was a connection.

Is there something wrong with you? The Seal 'was not made public until 1782' because it did not exist until then.

It came from Christianity haba haba ? you hide like a little boy under the vale(SIC) of Christianity, it's a cover for masons, fabricated for cover and control, you pop up and say look it's Christian, but when people take things apart everything becomes visible and the gag is up.

Why does it appear in Chirstian icongraphy and imagery if it did not mean Diety or the Trinity to Christians. Symbols can mean different things throughout history. Only rock-heads do not see that.

It's Ishtar isn't it Ishtar, the masons designed a statue of Ishtar, it's who she is Lady Libertas and remember they were masons, french masons.

Ishtar, a gift, the goddess of war, freedom and love.

If you say so. Next time a drive into Manhattan I will wave at the Statue of Isis for you because that is what we secretly refer to it as. You caught us.

Yes it is, it's what it says.

The Goddess of Liberty in a corslet of armour alluding to the present Times, holding in her right hand the Spear & Cap and with her left supporting the Shield of the states."

You are either exteremely dishonest or very, very sloppy. Underneath the picture you linked earlier it reads the following:

Du Simitière's Sketch of His First Design

This is from the very source you supplied. Notice that the description of Jefferson's design DOES NOT include the Eye of Providence. That was Du Simitiere's design. Jefferson's design is described in his own handwriting. No Statue, no Eye of Providence, none of the things you attribute to him were there. All were added by later committtees. Another misleading and poorly informed history lesson from you.

It's a masonic interpretation of the suroundings, I would not be surprised if it was made by masons.

You completely missed the point, again. Those images were created well after the Great Seal was adopted.

I did, its the illuminaty(SIC), as I told you, you make a great point proving my point.

Opps. Execpt you used poor sources again. You kind of UNproved your point. Again.

It has the same quonotation(SIC), the unfinished pyramid represents what needs to be finished so the pyramid can be complete, I told you a triangle and a pyramid has the same meaning on paper, it's just another triangle form.

Uh, no. A triangle has three sides. A pyramid is a three-dimensional shape and both are completely different as is their usage and icongraphy. Maybe according to your logic we can start calling them the Great Triangles of Giza if it is the same thing.

I did but you magicly do not quote on them, you decided to skip

And I will continue to skip blogs and unsupported websites. They are crap and only lazy people use them as sources.

I see you failed to answer my question:

Why is it when you claim something (influence of a son-in-law that he met after the Seal was designed) and are then proven WRONG is it 'splitting hairs'? No. It is you claimed something AGAIN and did not bother to research it first. Stop skirting your egregious errors a admit that you did not know what you were talking about. If you were to enter a credibility poll you would not do very well.

Be an adult and admit when you make a mistake.

That is correct they had the knowlege of the object and where it came from, you make my point just fine, they knew about the unfinished pyramid and the illuminati symbol.

Except the only places you find that information is from conspriacy websites. The Illuminati themselves said what symbol they used. Why would I need futher evidence when we have it directly from them?

On paper in 2d yes, and a cube is made out of squares, it's what it is.
Same thing a triangle and an eye at the top

Wrong. Everyone knows how to depict a cube on paper and give it a three-dimensional appearence. You can only fall to subterfuge to try and evade answering the question truthfully. If at all.

No it's the same concept.

Good to know that pyramids and triangles are all the same thing.

It's just a bunch of hog wash from you, small talk , trying to rip apart facts.
It's what masons do best, now I expect the masonic mob on ats to take hold.

Stop confusing my membership in a fraternity with the ability of others to process facts and information. You may be impaired in this regard but I have a higher opinion of the people who visit this site and that will review the 'facts' that you have presented versus the truth.

Because you have a sad prediliction to post irrelevant information. I pointed out that to Christians the Eye of Providence means Diety, specifically the Trinity. What it meant earlier is irrelevant as what matters is what it means in a contemporary setting. LEARN ABOUT TIMELINES.

It' okay it's clear now that it's not from the Christians, and that it got implemented into christianity and that this symbol is occult.

And stop with the crybaby appeal to emotion nonsense about leaving things out. You constantly fail to acknowledge EVERY mistake you make and we will see what you do with the others in this very post.

There is no mistake, it's just you trying to cover it.

This is an outright fabrication. If you were to actually research the subject using a reputable source such as Terry Melanson's Pefectibilists you will find the Illuminati DID NOT use an all seeing eye or pyramid, they used a point within a circle as their symbol. STOP LYING.

It even says MDCCLXXVI is 1776 in Roman, the founding of the bavarian organisation, how obvius can it get.

Here it is 1776

The Illuminati (plural of Latin illuminatus, "enlightened") is a name given to several groups, both historical and modern, and both real and fictitious. Historically, the name refers specifically to the Bavarian Illuminati, an Enlightenment-era secret society founded on May 1, 1776.

This equals the roman numerals from the pyramid here it is.


Bingo it's from the illuminati.


Now for other examples.
Example number one, from a christian source

www.holygrail-church.fsnet.co.uk...
he trapezoid (unfinished pyramid with four sides) is a most significant symbol in Satanism. The symbol is actually a metaphor for the oppressive hierarchy that reigns over the Masonic Lodge, and over many “democratic” governments, not least the American government where the all-seeing-eye above a trapezoid is used on the Great Seal of the United States (as depicted on the reverse of any dollar bill). The Illuminati eye is perched atop an incomplete pyramid with the date 1776 AD (the year Weishaupt founded the Illuminati) in Roman numerals at the bottom.

Wow they are spot on.


Other source

www.redicecreations.com...
The Illuminati, founded by Weishaupt in 1776, adopted as their Seal "a 13-layered unfinished pyramid with the capstone missing. Hovering above is a sun-rayed triangle, as if waiting to be lowered to complete the structure.

You once again used questionable websites that parrot other questionable websites in an effort to concoct a theory that can not stand up to scrutiny. The book I referenced uses the actual writings of the Illuminati's founders and members. USE RELIABLE SOURCES.

You are disturbed because it's true, here don't worry look at this.

Implemented by which Masons? You failed to answer this question earlier. Who, besides Franklin, was a Mason?

Franklin , Jefferson close to masonry and a whole lot others that were around them, they were not the only ones around, it makes sense.

What does 'connection to Masons' mean? That if someone knows a Mason they somehow loose their ability to be a defined individual and can not compose a design without mental hindrance? More arrogance.

Yes as long as they don't begin to implement symbols onto the monetary and into the other places making it normal, like the statue of liberty.

Find one non-conspiracy website that says this.

I did other sources, and I don't find it a conspiracy site.

Your premise is founded on misinformation. Educate yourself before posting.

This quote has zero substance.

Why does it appear in Chirstian icongraphy and imagery if it did not mean Diety or the Trinity to Christians. Symbols can mean different things throughout history. Only rock-heads do not see that.

It is not original to chrisitanity, I provided a source explaining that.

I told you it was morphed into christianity by the roman empire and organisations such as yours to make them look normal, just like the implementation of the pyramid and the eye on the dollar, just like other implementations from the ancient world into christianity, like symbols, holidays and the list go's on. It is an atribute of the Roman Empire, Masonry and other oranisations connected to the roman empire.

If you say so. Next time a drive into Manhattan I will wave at the Statue of Isis for you because that is what we secretly refer to it as. You caught us.

It is you making it look like a joke, but it's not. Ishtar the goddess of liberty, a huge monument dedicated to her by the free masons, how huge can you get ? How are you going to implement her into christianity like you did with , ester, ostara, ishtar..ohh well. Just shows it's a forged religion mixed with other elements and that everything is under the control of the occult organisations and the roman empire.

You do know the story with ester and Ostara don't you ? I mean Ishtar and the ester eggs.

It's a mochery and a sharade you have made.

You completely missed the point, again. Those images were created well after the Great Seal was adopted.

Guess you agree it's masonic ?

Uh, no. A triangle has three sides. A pyramid is a three-dimensional shape and both are completely different as is their usage and icongraphy. Maybe according to your logic we can start calling them the Great Triangles of Giza if it is the same thing.

No a pyramid is a representation of a triangle, it has the same interpretation, this is small little details, and you trying to make a big thing out of it. There are examples with triangles and eyes at the top.

Why is it when you claim something (influence of a son-in-law that he met after the Seal was designed) and are then proven WRONG is it 'splitting hairs'? No. It is you claimed something AGAIN and did not bother to research it first. Stop skirting your egregious errors a admit that you did not know what you were talking about. If you were to enter a credibility poll you would not do very well.

It does not matter, Jefferson had relatives as masons, and very close friends as masons, I don't see how this changes the fact, you going into detail and pointing out what relative was not and what relative was a masons does not change anything.

Be an adult and admit when you make a mistake.

The seal is masonic, further more masonry is just another illuminati.
It's simple, enlightment, illuminated illuminati it's the same thing.

The rest of it I will not quote you on, because you enlarge the discussion with non esential things"your tactic" of diluting the subject and making it a vast debate table.

Seriously, if Ignorance is Bliss, then Pepsi must be THRILLED!

Don't waste your time or energy arguing with him... he simply presents his opinions as facts and doesn't know how to deductively reason. Save your energy to debate people who actually know what they are talking about.

A whole lotta stupid wrapped in a crispy shell of ignorance.

reply to post by pepsi78


Actually, it's from the 1979 film Being There and has no connection to Freemasonry, other than Peter Sellers's brief flirtation with the Craft.

reply to post by pepsi78

Other source

www.redicecreations.com...
The Illuminati, founded by Weishaupt in 1776, adopted as their Seal "a 13-layered unfinished pyramid with the capstone missing. Hovering above is a sun-rayed triangle, as if waiting to be lowered to complete the structure.

Uhhhhh you do realize the title is "A Little On theLegend Of The 'Eye'" ...... right ?

It even says MDCCLXXVI is 1776 in Roman, the founding of the bavarian organisation, how obvius can it get.

And you do know America was founded in 1776, maybe that is why it is on the 1 dollar bill?

Originally posted by YourPopRock
Seriously, if Ignorance is Bliss, then Pepsi must be THRILLED!

Don't waste your time or energy arguing with him... he simply presents his opinions as facts and doesn't know how to deductively reason. Save your energy to debate people who actually know what they are talking about.

A whole lotta stupid wrapped in a crispy shell of ignorance.

reply to post by fordrew


Ohh well so did the illuminati, and the symbol of the pyramid and the eye.
This brings us to a connection, the same writing on the statue of liberty imprinted by the makers of the statue, the masons.

It bears the same inscription, the same numbers and the symbol of tourch the illumination, in connection to the illuminati and founding of the organisation and the declaration of independance of united states.

And you do know America was founded in 1776, maybe that is why it is on the 1 dollar bill?

Yes at the same time of the founding of the illuminati, in the success of the undertaking.

The seal comes from the illuminati/masonry.
By the way nice avatar with the lady and the tourch (same one) and lord saturn.

Now for the debunking of your pyramid is not a triangle thing.


The pyramid and the eye.

www.southernct9-12.com...
Although Thomson did not provide an exact translation of the motto, he explained its meaning in conjunction with the Eye of Providence in a triangle surrounded by light rays in the zenith of an unfinished pyramid: "The Eye over it & the motto Annuit Coeptis allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favour of the American cause."

It's clearly refered as a triangle. It's the same thing from Jefferson (me right again)


I just want to add that what you call freedom I call tyranny.

Going further to debunk you.

Presenting the seal of the united states.

13 steps pyramid and the eye, the complete seal, take your time to count them all.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2a018468e26c.jpg[/atsimg]


So much for your so called trinity I guess.

cosmicjoker.squarespace.com...

Calling all "anomalistic artifact" fans. I know your out there somewhere. Look at this little beauty. It was discovered in La Mana,deep,deep underground in the jungles of Ecuador. It's thought to be at least 6000 years old and it is part of a private collection.However it did see the light of day when Klaus Dona obtained permission to display it and many other jaw dropping artifacts at the Unsolved Mysteries Exhibition in Europe in 2001. If only there was a link where I could find out more!

Secondary source, an Ecuadorian artifact over 60000 years old, connecting to other cultures such as Egyptian culture and to practices such as Kundalini, showing without a doubt you are wrong.(of course you knew) but you kept this up.

www.humanresonance.org...
The most intriguing artifact of the group is a representation of a pyramid (above) with 13 horizontal divisions or steps, 3 sides on the inlaid triangular face and 1 eye symbol. The single engraved and inlaid florescent eye is a Sanskrit spiritual symbolism for psychic vision: the third-eye. As there are no known true pyramids in the Americas, only a multitude of stepped pyramids, this must be considered a representation of the Great Pyramid at Giza thousands of miles away. Interestingly, this Ecuadorian artifact records the third-eye symbol of the original façade whose casing stones are now absent. The reverse side of the triangular artifact bears a gold-plated inscription of the Orion’s belt constellation and a series of Archaic Sanskrit glyphs, as yet uninterpreted.

The seal of United States of America. 13 steps, the complete seal. How should I call it Snakes and Trinity ?
Or Snakes grass and pyramids ?
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/baadee6ac506.jpg[/atsimg]

Yet more evidence it's occult in nature and that the people that added it on the seal knew about it, the masonic
foundation of the United States. It was the Masons, there is no other place it could of came from. So much for your trinity and by the way it was called the eye of providence by the same people who made it. By the designers of the seal.

Originally posted by pepsi78
It' okay it's clear now that it's not from the Christians, and that it got implemented into christianity and that this symbol is occult.

No one is disputing the origins of the Eye of Providence. The debate is about what it meant to the designers of the Great Seal. It meant Diety.

It even says MDCCLXXVI is 1776 in Roman, the founding of the bavarian organisation, how obvius can it get.

And? So a conspiracy site uses the Great Seal to push an agenda and that makes it evidence?

Here it is 1776

The Illuminati (plural of Latin illuminatus, "enlightened") is a name given to several groups, both historical and modern, and both real and fictitious. Historically, the name refers specifically to the Bavarian Illuminati, an Enlightenment-era secret society founded on May 1, 1776.

This equals the roman numerals from the pyramid here it is.


Bingo it's from the illuminati.

Wrongo. The Illuminati did not use an unfinished pyramid as their symbol and that picture is much more recent then the creation of the Seal.

Now for other examples.
Example number one, from a christian source

www.holygrail-church.fsnet.co.uk...
he trapezoid (unfinished pyramid with four sides) is a most significant symbol in Satanism. The symbol is actually a metaphor for the oppressive hierarchy that reigns over the Masonic Lodge, and over many “democratic” governments, not least the American government where the all-seeing-eye above a trapezoid is used on the Great Seal of the United States (as depicted on the reverse of any dollar bill). The Illuminati eye is perched atop an incomplete pyramid with the date 1776 AD (the year Weishaupt founded the Illuminati) in Roman numerals at the bottom.

Wow they are spot on.

Wow. A wacko religious website. Are you going to use David Icke as a source next? By the way, the unfinished pyramid in the Great Seal has FIVE sides, not four like your religious wacko website claims.

Other source

www.redicecreations.com...
The Illuminati, founded by Weishaupt in 1776, adopted as their Seal "a 13-layered unfinished pyramid with the capstone missing. Hovering above is a sun-rayed triangle, as if waiting to be lowered to complete the structure.

This is totally false and is only propagated on conspiracy sites which you obviously take as gospel fact. The following quote is taken directly from Terry Melanson's book Perfectibilists and is supported by the actual writings of Adam Weishaupt, et al. The Illuminati used a circumpunct, not a pyramid as their symbol.

The Order was, therefore, always represented in communications between members as a circle with a dot in the center ʘ This symbolic imagery - the point within a circle, the Perfectibilists and the Bees - is also reflective of Weishaupt's fascination with Eleusinian and Pythagorean Mysteries; no doubt learning of this early on having access to Ickstatt's considerable library.

So who is more believable; The actual writings of the Illuminati or a conspiracy website with no supporting information?

Franklin , Jefferson close to masonry and a whole lot others that were around them, they were not the only ones around, it makes sense.

Franklin's design did not include the Eye of Providence or the unfinished pyramid, neither did Jefferson's. Those were design elements incorporated by Francis Hopkinson and Charles Thomson.

Yes as long as they don't begin to implement symbols onto the monetary and into the other places making it normal, like the statue of liberty.

What does that mean? Is that even English?

I did other sources, and I don't find it a conspiracy site.

You do not find it to be a conspiracy site because of your delusional agenda to avoid facts at all costs and your desire to cling to every questionable theory as long as it fits with your biased world-view. Meanwhile, I give you the handwritten notes of both Franklin and Jefferson as well as a publsihed author who used the actual writings of the Illuminati. Those are true and indisputable facts.

It is not original to chrisitanity, I provided a source explaining that.

You keep plummeting into the realm of redundancy. No one is disputing the origins of the Eye of Providence. You disputed that it meant Diety to Christians of that era and what the designers of the Seal intended to convey by its use (Diety).

Guess you agree it's masonic ?

No one is disputing that there are items that incorporate the Great Seal into them. They all obviously postdate the design of the Great Seal.

No a pyramid is a representation of a triangle, it has the same interpretation, this is small little details, and you trying to make a big thing out of it. There are examples with triangles and eyes at the top.

It is not a 'small little detail'. It is the difference between two distinct geomteric shapes. If it were not that important then why does the unfinished pyramid on the Great Seal have its right side shaded to give it a three-dimensional appearence? If they were both triangles why would this have been done?

It does not matter, Jefferson had relatives as masons, and very close friends as masons, I don't see how this changes the fact, you going into detail and pointing out what relative was not and what relative was a masons does not change anything.

It demonstrates your systemic issue of posting what you believe to be fact (Jefferson was influenced by his Mason son-in-law even though he met him AFTER the Seal was designed) without verifying the evidence first. You are sloppy and frankly quite lazy in your inclusion of 'facts'. You invent anecdotes to suite your agenda and then convienently step away from them when it is pointed out that you are incorrect. It is painfully obvious to everyone here that you perpetrate this behavior regualarly and leave it to others to determine if you once again invented evidence. This is not the behavior of an intellectual, it is more the behavior of a narcsisstic

The seal is masonic...

No, it is American.

Jefferson: Not a Mason, designs not used.

Franklin: Was a Mason, designs not used.

Hopkinson: Not a Mason, designs used (unfinished pyramid)

Thomson: Not a Mason, designs used (Eye of Providence)

The rest of it I will not quote you on, because you enlarge the discussion with non esential things"your tactic" of diluting the subject and making it a vast debate table.

Or maybe you would just have to answer more questions about your shoddy facts and research.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Secondary source, an Ecuadorian artifact over 60000 years old...

From your 'source':

Accurate dating of the artifacts is as yet impossible by the latest methods...

Your statement is a joke. You are either very sloppy or very dishonest. Either way your 'facts' are useless.

Stick to the topic and prove that the Seal is Masonic and that the Illuminati used it.