Rational Atheism

Originally posted by AlphaBetaGammaX
So if the burden of proof is on those that make a claim, and an atheist claims there is no deity, should they not have to prove that?

Yes. Whether the claim is possible to prove or not is irrelevant, which is why I mentioned earlier that a wise person does not make such claims, since as the quote explains, they are self-defeating.

Or is it that, instead of saying "I believe there are no deities", they say "I have the absence of belief in deities", then they no longer have to prove anything since there is no claim being made? Does this lack of belief shift the burden of proof to those that believe?

Any statement beginning with "I believe" is not an assertion or argument but a simple statement of what a person holds to be true, so you're right, they have no burden of proof. The statement itself is indisputable because only the person saying it can know what they believe. But the burden does not shift unless both parties are making arguments or assertions.

And, Thanks for the info! I've always avoided all of this because I've seen too many people throw these terms around in an argument without really doing anything else, and it always seemed so ridiculous. But when I see people use true logic in an argument, and still follow the flow of the argument without arguing for argument's sake, then it becomes interesting.... (and since its summer and I'm only taking two classes at school, maybe I'll actually try and learn a bit about this!)

You're very welcome.

I dont understand the need for debate on this subject....one certain....in roughly 70-100 years,every person who comes onto this Earth will find an answer to their beliefs...so you are either wrong or right,no matter which side you choose..and no one else will be able to see how wrong or right you were...so why fret about it?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Well to sum it up with one answer, religion helps people out in many ways. Through vast charities that no other organizations unrelated to religion can even hope to surpass in donations and through-put of goods/services. Through rehabilitation of incarcerated people or many others that are cursed with a sociopath mindset. Sure, this rehabilitation may be based on lies and what we as Atheists consider bull#, but it works and works better than any other form of rehabilitation. Just because it maybe a placebo, does not mean the placebo doesn't work!

Religion has helped in forming vast communions of differing people and , although many conflicts have broken out over religion, gave those people a common ground to work on.

Islam is really the only modern religion that I cannot say will end up being better for the world.... although initially it helped bring the Arab world out of the dark ages... it has turned into a beast preventing basic human rights and seems hell-bent on taking away everybody's rights to believe what they want.

Islam has helped the poor become relevant and stable i the past, it has shown to elevate Arabic societies from very primitive and barbaric [practices for a while ( burying newborn girls alive, blood-rites,etc.) and before becoming a fundamentalist sociopolitical agenda, led many to pursue the arts and knowledge.

I know why we as Atheists are against religion , mainly because it will and is destined to cause huge social, and political upheaval and may , in fact, cause the extinction of the human race. We can also say that so might science cause everyone's death also. Religion definitely has it 's role, and I think while that role might have a curtain drop on its act, it still causes far more good than bad to transpire in this world.

reply to post by IamBoon


Thanks IAmBoon, I personally would describe myself as a Christian but I think that far too often the belief is clouded over by the faults of the believers.

The fact that we can have reasoned dialogue about things we feel deeply about and yet can have differing views is both healthy and constructive.

A blindly arrogant closed mind (on either side) is, at its core, the single most cause of conflict over religious, spiritual and philosophical discussion and learning.

reply to post by IamBoon


Polio. Polio will soon be eradicated by organizations entirely separate of religion. The two most charitable individuals in history have been atheists...and are both still alive. The greatest philanthropic organization in history is run by one of them.

Furthermore, the religious rehabilitation? Well...more people go into the prisons religious in the first place than those who go in with no religion at all.

All of the things you mention can be done separate from religion and even better without it. Rehabilitation both in terms of criminal behavior and substance abuse could be so much better without religion. If you emphasized secular education amongst imprisoned populations...in fact, if you emphasized education amongst women in poor communities in general and generally empowered them, we wouldn't have as much of a problem with crime in general and repeat offenders specifically.

Now...I'm going to have to severely disagree with you here and will go about this disagreement via quotes:

Islam is really the only modern religion that I cannot say will end up being better for the world.... although initially it helped bring the Arab world out of the dark ages...

...no, Islam helped keep the Arab world within the Dark Ages. It was the conquest which created the Arab world that brought about the stability and prosperity needed to dredge these areas back to their former glory back when they were at the very heart of all civilization.

it has turned into a beast preventing basic human rights and seems hell-bent on taking away everybody's rights to believe what they want.

And how different is that from how Christianity was 700 years ago?

Islam has helped the poor become relevant and stable i the past, it has shown to elevate Arabic societies from very primitive and barbaric [practices for a while ( burying newborn girls alive, blood-rites,etc.) and before becoming a fundamentalist sociopolitical agenda, led many to pursue the arts and knowledge.

Well...a lot of those primitive and barbaric acts are...well...rumored. Lets put it that way. We have little evidence for these barbaric acts. And it was not Islam that led people to the arts and knowledge, it was stability.

My question for you now, in response to that last bit you wrote, is what religion's specific role is. What can it do that can not be accomplished by another institution or social movement? We know that science is a dangerous thing, but it really is the only means we have by which to improve our understanding of the world around us. We cannot replace science with anything that is nearly as effective. So what does religion do?

Or in the words of a certain posse of mentally ill jesters put more verbosely: Fornicating religion, by what means does it function?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Sure you just seem to wnat to argue instead of realizing that religion has its saving graces.


You mention Polio? Ok, How does that detract from the acknowledgement of the millions of charities TOWARDS sciences that religious groups donate to? Religion does not discount science at all, They just bash heads when science steps in on their beliefs. Most hospitals are founded on Christian values and many colleges secular or not get donations from the religious populace.

You mention that most incarcerated people have a religion.... however when actually introduced and indoctrinated by the feelings of being penned up like an animal for their bad actions, is when they BECOME religious instead of it just being a label. THey read and practice those precepts. Yes, some people actually are religious and commit crimes... because people are not perfect whatever they believe in.

If you are to argue a point , do it thoroughly and not on a whim. Fact is no matter what you sat religion does a helluva lot of good.

Those barbaric acts are as well documented as they could be seeing as most of Arabia was illiterate and few who traded there. It is written about in a few books from the times also. As you know any rise in civilization and in the arts, sciences, and the community as a whole usually DOES preclude an imperialistic stance with other areas. History my friend... No matter what a society's belief system is , the rise to power usually brings on a lot of conquering.

Also, just because I am not ignorant of the good or bad that religion has caused does not mean I argue for its proliferation or that no other system can replace it. If you know a system better that people can accept besides religion then reveal it. I feel one day the religious might be a minority, but it is a humans right to think what they will as long as others are not hurt.

What are your reason and ideals on saying that religion has had no benefits to civilization? A quote from Hitchens? lol I have read the books and books that are favorable to religion also . Maybe you should look at both sides of the spectrum on this subject. And it isn't black and white... I wish it were that easy

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by IamBoon

 

Originally posted by XmikaX
to not believe and to believe are entirely the same things

That's just silly.

According to your logic here, to not do something is to do that same thing...
To not eat = to eat.
To not cry = to cry.
Or in algebraic terms: A=A not

The word "not" is in that sentence for a reason. You can't just negate it on one side of the = sign and pretend it's not there. You either have a belief in something or you don't. The absence of a belief does not require that there be the presence of the opposite belief.

I don't hold a belief in chupacabras. That doesn't mean that I hold a belief that they don't exist. I just don't hold a belief about their existence at all. It's not part of my thinking or my life. YOU can tell me that I believe something about chupacabras all day long but YOU would be wrong.

As soon as you understand this, grasshopper, you shall reach blessed enlightenment...

your point is just fallacious,however :
if you don't eat meat, you eat fish
if you don't eat fish, you eat vegetables
if you don't eat anything, you should be dead and not here

if you don't do something, you are doing something else
and if you do nothing, then you should not be reading this either, nor have answered my post, nor reply any further

atheists don't believe in god, they believe "there is no god"

atheists are believers.

end of discussion./

reply to post by XmikaX


Yes just as we believe taht is we breath we intake oxygen... there is another aspect of belief that you are ignoring.... taht is blind faith. Faith in a subject with evidence to the contrary, taht is logically erroneous to almost everything we see and know about the world and how it works along with our place in it.


Everyone is a believer in a sense. BUT I KNOW your concept of a personal god is false. The odds of god being true is almost nil once you add the "godly" attributes to the concept.


So Athests believe Theists are delusional because Theists believe in some whacked out crap. If I walked into a hosptal with some ceremonial garb and told them "the God "Xanderola Crayola " is talking to me and many will die, unless you accept the Great One and relinquish your children to his commend!" Those hospital workers will get you in a looney bin ASAP! The sad thing is what most religious people believe is far worse than anything "Xanderola Crayola" does!

reply to post by IamBoon


if you had read my first post on first page you would know that i don't have beliefs, but you're stuck fighting windmills with this "rationalism" of yours that is "rational" only in your mind.

i don't belong to you believers in no god and i don't belong to you believers in almighty god because i don't know s***, just as everybody else but i have no problem admitting it, nor waiting for after the final breath to maybe make my mind about it. although between us i don't care too much about it.

the world is not divided in believers and non-believers; if you want to make a division make it between those that fear and those that don't. i know it's a shock for you that feel so superior to the believers and that your ego need to reject that truth about you being exactly the same as those you despise and mock.

Originally posted by XmikaX
reply to post by IamBoon

 

if you had read my first post on first page you would know that i don't have beliefs, but you're stuck fighting windmills with this "rationalism" of yours that is "rational" only in your mind.

i don't belong to you believers in no god and i don't belong to you believers in almighty god because i don't know s***, just as everybody else but i have no problem admitting it, nor waiting for after the final breath to maybe make my mind about it. although between i don't care too much about it

the world is not divided in believers and non-believers; if you want to make a division make it between those that fear and those that don't. i know it's a shock for you that feel so superior to the believers and that your ego need to reject that truth about you being exactly the same as those you despise and mock.

P.S. you are wrong, unless you really know so little that you cannot understand what separates religious belief from believing in everyday experience.

I don't feel superior to a religious person, I do feel superior to some scum of this Earth though. I don't know everything, but I do know about a few subjects that we humans invented themselves, which is really all that religious thought is. I know that my stance on what I call ridiculous fantasies of delusion, what most call Religious Blind Faith, does not even come close to equating with it or it's brain-washing antics.