Forbidden Fruit

reply to post by bogomil


I just find it ironic that the separation of church from state has seen the removal of private prejudice:-

women's role in society, homosexuals right to their sexuality and many more religious prejudices that we have held onto from the dark ages of religion, yet people sing the Churche's praises despite how much liberty we have gained since the state took no notice of them.

And it's even further ironic that MY own country is technically a Monarchy, sometimes i wish i was American, SOMETIMES

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller

Please Quote the verse which says EDEN is ON The EARTH.

Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth,, and there was not a man to till the ground.

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

so god blew on some dust and made a man, and eastward of that event

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.

so not only was eden suposed to be on earth - its location was somewhere in the middle east

And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

Show me the river today... which goes right around the whole Land of Ethiopia... You Can't.

The Land of Ethiopia is NOT the same as ETHIOPIA as The WORD ETHIOPIA is from The ZION (Not Hebrew) Language which has been transferred to English, but Corrupted and written in Lower case which turns the Meaning into a "Lie".

These Rivers on Earth are Named after the Rivers in "Paradise" as these writings are a PARABLE for "The Inner True Mind".

You have NOT shown me that there is a statement saying that EDEN is on Earth, and you can't.

Nowhere in your above text does it say "EDEN is on Earth".

You assume... because You do NO know The Garden of GOD.

There is NO Statement in the bile saying....

That "The EDEN is ON Earth".

ALL comes from Above via The WORD of GOD (not the bible) and NOT from Below, but you send upward (Return) what you experience below.

If The Garden of GOD was on Earth, you would see it today, and You don't, for GOD Does NOT Fail.

Show me the Cherubims and a flaming sword, which turns every way, to keep the way of "The Tree of LIFE".

If you can... then you understand.... But if you can't then you Don't understand.

The "Flesh" Wars against the SOUL and LIFE.

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

You assume... because You do NO know The Garden of GOD.

And you do?

There is NO Statement in the bile saying....

That "The EDEN is ON Earth".

There is no statement in the bible stating "Eden" ISN'T on EARTH.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Beloved Awake, it is written, "Unless you become as a little child..." Ignorance says, "I do not know, please help me to understand"; and Ego says, "I know everything, you can't convince me otherwise."

It is written, "When you remove envy/ego from you, then you will clothe yourselves with light and enter in the bridal chamber." And Judas asked, "Lord, how will our garments be brought to us?" And the answer to him was, "Some will bring them to you and others will receive them: for there are those who are ordained to bring them to you." He that has an ear, let him hear!

Peace be with you Awake: for you are Beloved; one of the ALL that make up the WHOLE!!!

reply to post by Olise

Beloved Awake, it is written, "Unless you become as a little child..." Ignorance says, "I do not know, please help me to understand"; and Ego says, "I know everything, you can't convince me otherwise."

Really not sure what you're implying, could you explain?

It is written, "When you remove envy/ego from you, then you will clothe yourselves with light and enter in the bridal chamber."

Are you suggesting than my responses are an attempt to fuel my own ego, and not to respond to the posts in question? Perhaps an assumption on your part?

And Judas asked, "Lord, how will our garments be brought to us?" And the answer to him was, "Some will bring them to you and others will receive them: for there are those who are ordained to bring them to you." He that has an ear, let him hear!

Purpose of this tale? Is it to higlight two types of character; those who will seek to cloth others, and those who expect to be clothed by others? And what do you mean by "ordained?" I'm guessing you mean commanded? Quite sure of it.

Perhaps, it implies that you need to be ordained in order be charitable, in order to be caring or giving? Perhaps that's an insult to atheists, perhaps that's an insult to volunteers of SECULAR charities?

I'll let you expand in the meaning of this proverb and answer my questions regarding it.

I was touched by your reference to me as "beloved" though. Thanks.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Certainly hope Sarah Palin doesn't get into power, but i'm sure there will be a "first" as there was a "first" black president.

I am confident it won't happen in my lifetime! If Sarah Palin is the best the Republicans can do, then they're in deep trouble, but really, I think they've set her up as someone so manifestly useless that she will adversely effect all female candidates for the foreseeable future. Mad, evil and cunning, these Republicans...

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Care to expand?

Re Hitchens it's because he recently married an American Jewish journalist, then discovered his own Jewishness, and glommed on to a Neo-con, Zionist, pro-Israel anti Muslim thing... He's very unstable, and highly influenced by anyone around him who's a stronger personality (rather as the late Douglas Adams was.)
As for Pope Benedict, as I suspected your 'quote' was indeed deceptive. He never said that condoms were worse than AIDS, what he did say was that condoms actually make the situation worse, and they do - leading people to think that they can have sex willy nilly with anyone at any time, provided they have a condom, even if it stays in their pocket!
I quote from your 3rd link (the fourth one 404ed at me)

The Pope courted further controversy on his first trip to Africa today by declaring that condoms were not a solution to the Aids epidemic – but were instead part of the problem

Vicky

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


you asked where in the bible its say Eden was on earth - i gave you the passage, if you don't like it then take it up with whoever made the story up in the first place

but all i get from the text is - god makes the earth - then somewhere on the earth god makes a man - east of that event he makes a garden and puts the man there - there are some rivers flowing near the place that have names that are identifiable - so from that i have to conclude the story takes place in the middle east

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

 

you asked where in the bible its say Eden was on earth - i gave you the passage, if you don't like it then take it up with whoever made the story up in the first place

but all i get from the text is - god makes the earth - then somewhere on the earth god makes a man - east of that event he makes a garden and puts the man there - there are some rivers flowing near the place that have names that are identifiable - so from that i have to conclude the story takes place in the middle east

It is impossible for me to change this writing for me, you, or anyone else....

From a Ancient Christian Writing called “The Life of A’DAM & EVE” verse 16 Quote;

XVI. And the Lord GOD (Son of GOD the LIGHT)
was angry with me
and banished me and my Angels from Glory:

And on your account were driven from the dwelling-places (Paradise)

Into this World and thrown Out ONTO the Earth…

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


The Life of ADAM & EVE aka Apocalypse of Moses is non-canonical

what is the point in asking for canonical passages in regards to a non-canonical work and then shouting HAHA when they dont match up?

Originally posted by Olise
reply to post by awake_and_aware

 

Beloved Awake, it is written, "Unless you become as a little child..." Ignorance says, "I do not know, please help me to understand"; and Ego says, "I know everything, you can't convince me otherwise."

It is written, "When you remove envy/ego from you, then you will clothe yourselves with light and enter in the bridal chamber." And Judas asked, "Lord, how will our garments be brought to us?" And the answer to him was, "Some will bring them to you and others will receive them: for there are those who are ordained to bring them to you." He that has an ear, let him hear!

Peace be with you Awake: for you are Beloved; one of the ALL that make up the WHOLE!!!

It would be good, if christian missionaries concentrated more on:"PLEASE (.....help me to understand)", thus being ASKED, instead of assuming 'we know what's good for you', WITHOUT being asked.

And btw, presenting sermons to non-believers has the opposite effect of the intended. You either appear to be monomaniac fanatics unable to get out of your own bubble; or you believe, that you live in the dark ages still, when such functioned.

reply to post by Vicky32


Thanks for the reply. No personal attacks or ad hominems this time too; bonus.

The Pope courted further controversy on his first trip to Africa today by declaring that condoms were not a solution to the Aids epidemic – but were instead part of the problem

I still think that's wrong, to state this. He doesn't know the reasons for increased sexual activity and saying condoms are making it worse is based on 0 evidence. Like most religions, they are obessed with sex.

If you can preach God, and demonise condoms it's a perfect strategy for promoting religious growth - Christians have sexual urges too - take a condom out the situation; there's another fresh healthy CHRISTIAN baby.

To say that condoms are making things worse is iditotic to me, and still immoral preaching.

Abstinence certainly prevents pregnancies, BUT SO DO CONDOMS

You know what they say about abstinence?

Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers

Again, that's why his "u-turn" made headlines, and was recieved well by (most) of the secular community;

According to the Pope; Condoms were suddenly NOT making the problem worse (in some cases) Doing such a u-turn highlights to me that his position was wrong, and he knew it, as saw the consequences of such preaching, and the resentment from secularists and humanitarians (non-religious AND religious)

it's because he recently married an American Jewish journalist, then discovered his own Jewishness

All i can say is; i disagree - And i have literally no idea what you're on about when you state "Jewishness" - It certainly made me laugh.

Hitchens has a very strong opinion regarding the Palestinian conflict and has wrote about it multiple times in Vanity Fair. He has a compassion for liberty and for emancipating his fellow "comrades".

The main disagreement i have with Hitchens is his argument that "women arn't funny". I don't believe Hitchens has met all of the women in the world.

Originally posted by racasan
reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

 

The Life of ADAM & EVE aka Apocalypse of Moses is non-canonical

what is the point in asking for canonical passages in regards to a non-canonical work and then shouting HAHA when they dont match up?

It is Not my intension, to argue with you, as you are free to believe what you want.

Who is Flesh to Judge GOD and what writings are correct according to human judgement based on superstitious tendencies?

It depends on whether you follow "Roman Doctrine" or Not.

Personally I put NOT my trust in anyone, as all flesh DIES.

Regarding any of the writings.... including especially any canonical writings.

The churches on Earth are Corrupted by False teachers, Warring against The Soul and LIFE, trying to justify their flesh.

Even The Book of E’NOCH is Quoted in “The Book of JUDE” in the bible, yet the rest of the Book and the other Books of E’NOCH are excluded.

Hypocrites…

Jesus said, “Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees and Hypocrites”.

Regarding Flesh… recorded in “The BOOK of E’NOCH I-XXXVI” verse 7 Quote;

07. And the Earth shall wholly rent in sunder,
And all that is upon the Earth shall perish,
And there shall be a judgement upon all men.

But to The Elect ones The Living NOT The Flesh verse 8 Quote;

08. But with the righteous He will make peace,
And will protect the elect,
And mercy shall be upon them.
And they shall all belong to God,
And they shall be prospered,
And they shall all be blessed.
And HE will help them all,
And LIGHT shall appear unto them,
And HE will make peace with them.

And the Verse found in The Book of Jude in the bible.
(The Roman collection of Greek & Hebrew Writings)

From “The BOOK of E’NOCH I-XXXVI” verse 9 Quote;
(Also quoted in the Book of JUDE N.T.)

09. And behold!
He cometh with ten thousands
of His Holy Ones
to execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
of all the works of their ungodliness
which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things
which ungodly sinners have spoken
against Him.

Also an interesting verse From "The Gospel of Thomas" verse 39 Quote;

39. Jesus said,

“The Pharisees and the Scribes
have taken The Keys of Knowledge and Hidden Them.

They themselves have NOT entered,
nor have they allowed to enter those who wish to.

You, however, be as wise as serpents
and as innocent as doves.”

I put My TRUST in; "The WAY The TRUTH and THE LIGHT", and NOT the "Species".

Jesus said, "Let NOT you put your trust in anyone, but the Father Only.

"Anyone", includes Primate priests and popes, you me and others including religious teachers.

I can only be a witness to what I have seen, and heard, being unable to teach anyone anything.

May you Find Truth and Peace within yourself.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

If you can preach God, and demonise condoms it's a perfect strategy for promoting religious growth - Christians have sexual urges too - take a condom out the situation; there's another fresh healthy CHRISTIAN baby.

That assumes that every child born in a Christian family will end up Christian - but it doesn't work that way! (Nor will every child raised in an atheist family be an atheist, I am proof of that...)

Originally posted by awake_and_awareYou know what they say about abstinence?

Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers

Oh really? I've never heard that said, and so I don't know who says it. I could say "you know what they say about Iguanas? They make the perfect pets - and when you grow tired of them, stick 'em in a bap with avocado" .. Doesn't make it true, not even for Alexei Sayle!


According to the Pope; Condoms were suddenly NOT making the problem worse (in some cases) Doing such a u-turn highlights to me that his position was wrong, and he knew it, as saw the consequences of such preaching, and the resentment from secularists and humanitarians (non-religious AND religious)

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

Hitchens has a very strong opinion regarding the Palestinian conflict and has wrote about it multiple times in Vanity Fair. He has a compassion for liberty and for emancipating his fellow "comrades".

Has written, you should have said... but that's beside the point. What I meant by Hitchens having discovered his Jewishness (grandmother, I think), and marrying an American Jew, is that these things clearly have had a huge influence on his politics, and on his 'atheism'. If you plough through his magnum opus "God is not Great", you'll see that he can't stop himself from intensifying his anti-Muslim ravings to the point that an objective reader has to wonder if the CIA/NSA was paying him by every word against Islam that he wrote.
Contrariwise, he was tremendously soft on Judaism, a trick he managed by attributing the OT entirely to Christians...
(Yes, I have read said magnum opus, painful though it was - it's even more fact-free and testeria laden than Dawkins' road of old cobblers...)

reply to post by Vicky32

That assumes that every child born in a Christian family will end up Christian - but it doesn't work that way! (Nor will every child raised in an atheist family be an atheist, I am proof of that...)

Of course not, I'm not saying it's a water-tight strategy; i'm just saying that's what i would preach if i wanted to increase probability of Christian growth, (specifically Roman Catholic as the Pope's giving out the orders, "the annointed" one.)

Oh really? I've never heard that said, and so I don't know who says it. I could say "you know what they say about Iguanas? They make the perfect pets - and when you grow tired of them, stick 'em in a bap with avocado" .. Doesn't make it true, not even for Alexei Sayle!

Depends on your taste and your sentiment towards the Iguana, i guess . If i had one as a pet i'd have a degree of sentiment towards it; and lack of taste for Iguana meat anyway (unless i was starving to death, of course)

Has written, you should have said... but that's beside the point. What I meant by Hitchens having discovered his Jewishness (grandmother, I think), and marrying an American Jew, is that these things clearly have had a huge influence on his politics, and on his 'atheism'. If you plough through his magnum opus "God is not Great", you'll see that he can't stop himself from intensifying his anti-Muslim ravings to the point that an objective reader has to wonder if the CIA/NSA was paying him by every word against Islam that he wrote.

Have you studied the religious militias in the Middle-East? He's travelled there, he's been there. He's studied the manifestos of these cults that use concepts of martyrdom and jihad, and propaganda against "Kafirs" (non-believers) and the QuRan doesn't prevent this, in fact, if you read many verses; Allah calls for exactly that, it's definetly not a "cultural" issue. It's sinister dogma, deep routed in superstition.

Have you heard about Sharia Law protestors in England? They come to our country, and use freedom of expression to support Sharia Law which will forbid freedom of speech! We welcome them with open arms, give them benefits, and this is how they repay us, protesting our democracy and the very infrastructure which allowed for migration, and freedom of speech.

This IS NOT a case of racism, this is not "Islamophobia", this is definetly a socio-political issue here, and it's deep routed in dogma, not just "culture" as moderates so lightly pass it off as.

CIA/NSA was paying him by every word against Islam that he wrote.
Contrariwise, he was tremendously soft on Judaism, a trick he managed by attributing the OT entirely to Christians...

What's the CIA/NSA got to do with free speech? What law prevents Christopher Hitchen's being allowed to report on whatever he likes as a journalist, as long as it does not promote hatred of people, and as long he's highlighting atrocities that everyone should be aware of.

He's debated Jews. As well as his book, he's travelled and debated many Rabais, Ministers, Bishops etc. etc..

He refers to Circumcision as "Genital Mutilation" or "Child Abuse" - Many jews (and muslims) arn't particularly fond of that.

It's not a case of selective cricisim.

And so what if he's married to a Jew? What's your point? What's wrong with "Jewishness" as you put it?

(Yes, I have read said magnum opus, painful though it was - it's even more fact-free and testeria laden than Dawkins' road of old cobblers...)

It's extremely well sourced, i can't find any historical inaccuries, or any slip ups on the philosophies of great thinkers throughout time, and despite not sourcing or "supporting" EVERY claim or opinion, i certainly respect Hitchen's knowledge, opinion, and his intellectual honesty.

I know why many disagree with Hitchens in general, though.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware


This IS NOT a case of racism

You could have fooled me! I have family and friends in the UK, and they don't bang on about this - I suspect it's a narrow, tiny group of people who obsess about the coming 'Sharia Law'... I won't say BNP, but others might! Here in NZ, we have a huge number of Muslims, many of them refugees, who come here, "we give them benefits" etc and yet we have no problems with them. Mmm, I wonder why that would be?

Originally posted by awake_and_awareAnd so what if he's married to a Jew? What's your point? What's wrong with "Jewishness" as you put it?

'
Why are you ignoring what I already said? There's nothing wrong with Jewishness, but there's a lot wrong with a crusade against Islam, even if it disguises itself as a 'war on terror'. Have you ever heard of PNAC? Were you aware that most of them are American Jews? Where have you been since 2003?
Hitchens is soft on Judaism because he's a right winger. I could stop right there! One thing I do give him credit for - he had himself water-boarded to 'prove' it wasn't that bad, so shut you damn Muzlims and stop her damn whinging... Then he actually admitted that yes, it was that bad.
I'd like to see Alan Dershowitz and some of the other Neo Cons do the same.

Funny thing is that my Rabbi told me that the jewish people dont think it was a apple at all. It was this other fuit that i cant remember.

reply to post by Vicky32

You could have fooled me!

Apparently quite an easy task? In no way am i xenophobic, racist, or a condemner of "multi-culturism".

we have a huge number of Muslims, many of them refugees, who come here, "we give them benefits" etc and yet we have no problems with them. Mmm, I wonder why that would be?

Because they're not trying to impose and promote libel/blasphemy laws on your people? Or maybe they are, and you support that.

I protest that nonsense because I can see the division it's causing; and of course, some people are not bothered in UK, but if you actually visit areas in the UK before forming an opinion; you will realise why people call it "a nation divided".

And no i'm not BNP so don't even go down that route.

Why are you ignoring what I already said? There's nothing wrong with Jewishness, but there's a lot wrong with a crusade against Islam, even if it disguises itself as a 'war on terror'.

The War on Terror isn't a religious or non religious crusade, it's a secular effort by many states. But i feel it's being used to take away our freedom, and impose more draconian laws on us to restrict our liberty.

Have you ever heard of PNAC? Were you aware that most of them are American Jews?

So, what's your point? Whether i agree or disagree with the organisations agendas or motives?

Where have you been since 2003?

You know ignorant me, Vicky - I live in my atheist dreamworld.

Hitchens is soft on Judaism because he's a right winger.

He's not, and he's not afraid of being called an anti-semite because it false and incorrect, the same with being called a racist. But i guess it's easy to fool people like you?

One thing I do give him credit for - he had himself water-boarded to 'prove' it wasn't that bad

To prove it wasn't that bad? Will you stop typing untrue opnionated nonsense? Please, i'm telling you for your own sake. I don't know everything, but i will object if i believe you are being ignorant.

"Believe Me, It’s Torture"

Here is the most chilling way I can find of stating the matter. Until recently, “waterboarding” was something that Americans did to other Americans. It was inflicted, and endured, by those members of the Special Forces who underwent the advanced form of training known as sere (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape). In these harsh exercises, brave men and women were introduced to the sorts of barbarism that they might expect to meet at the hands of a lawless foe who disregarded the Geneva Conventions. But it was something that Americans were being trained to resist, not to inflict.

-Christopher Hitchens on his water-boarding experience

www.vanityfair.com...

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

And no i'm not BNP so don't even go down that route.

I should sincerely hope not! But you're sounding worryingly like a BNP supporter today.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware

So, what's your point? Whether i agree or disagree with the organisations agendas or motives?

I don't know why you would agree with People for a New American Century which is what PNAC is...

Originally posted by awake_and_awareHe's not, and he's not afraid of being called an anti-semite because it false and incorrect, the same with being called a racist.

Of course he's a rightist, and a rabid one to boot! Try reading some of his prattling that's not solely about atheism.

You're defending the indefensible, but there's something seriously wrong when you find yourself having to support PNAC because you've painted yourself into a corner. That's what comes of being knowledgeable about only a narrow fraction of the writings of one of your idols.

reply to post by Vicky32

I should sincerely hope not! But you're sounding worryingly like a BNP supporter today.

You love to imply things on ATS, even if you're not sure whether you're talking truth, even if you havn't bothered doing the reading to back up your condemning opinion.

I think it's deceptive at worse and uncivil and impolite at best.

No, i'm not a BNP support and just because i have a criticism of religion, and the related socio-political issues involved doesn't make me a racist or a xenophobe, learn some manners and decorum. Learn not to judge, "less you be judged".

don't know why you would agree with People for a New American Century which is what PNAC is...

Where did i state i agreed with that ? Where did i even talk about them?

Of course he's a rightist, and a rabid one to boot! Try reading some of his prattling that's not solely about atheism.

Yeah, i've read his opinion on the World Wars, his historical knowledge and his detailed political commetry that goes with it.

You're defending the indefensible, but there's something seriously wrong when you find yourself having to support PNAC because you've painted yourself into a corner. That's what comes of being knowledgeable about only a narrow fraction of the writings of one of your idols.

Again, as you've shown, you're in love with your own opinion; rather than give a cogent argument, you'd rather just point to PNAC, and incorrectly claim i agree with it. You'd rather not back your unmitigated statements up.

That's no problem though, if you'd rather me correct them.

You're defending the indefensible

Coming from someone who'd rather slander people (Sam Harris) rather than actually checking up on your OPINION'S claimed "FACTS".

I never said i agreed with EVERYTHING Hitchen's has written or dictated. I've mentioned that in a previous post.

Do you enjoy the dishonest way in which you approach debate and discussion? Does it not make me feel evil inside? It would make me feel dirty.

Originally posted by Lovepeace20
Funny thing is that my Rabbi told me that the jewish people dont think it was a apple at all. It was this other fuit that i cant remember.

Perhaps you are thinking of the “Fig Tree”?

Where the Leaves came from, to cover their Nakedness?

But this “Tree" (The Tree of The Knowledge of Good & Evil) is nothing Like a Tree on Earth, from which you eat fruit.