Are China & North Korea happier than America?

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by jonnyb578
so how many of these countries have you been to? how many native people from these countries have you asked about the conditions there? my ex girlfriend was chinese and she says its not as bad there as we here in the west try to make it out to be. you are told communism is bad but its just a different way of doing things. have you ever experienced it first hand? and its not that "democracy" is such a great thing anyway.

primarily we are talking about this list, which is clearly a different level of propaganda than we are used to here, though we are not perfect.


I don't see too many people from the UK, US etc looking to move to North Korea, China etc, can't say the same about the other way- so whilst we are not perfect we are MUCH better than these communist hell holes

Have you been to China? Do you know how many western people live and work in China? When i first moved to China (beijing) i was amazed at how many western people were living and working in Beijing. I made many good friends in beijing, and yes, many of them were English.

My life in China was great. Not once did i worry about walking the streets on my own, not like i worry in my own country (uk) People are so friendly and go out of there way to help you. There are no gangs of kids beating up on elders for looking at them the wrong way like here in the uk. In China, there is alot of respect.

Now, im talking about the places i have been, and the people i have met. Of course the government is not perfect, and needs to improve on many things, but what government doesn't.

Im looking at moving back to China in a few year. I think the way of living, the culture, the people are great. But many people will not know this because they believe the propaganda they hear on the news about China. Many people can't handle the fact that China will be the next super power, simple as that.

Originally posted by Dnevnoi

Oh my goodness, I love this.

North Korean researchers have compiled a list of the happiest countries in the world. Interestingly, Western researchers are saying that this list is likely a derivative of many lists dealing with issues such as human rights abuses, dictatorships, and political repression.

1st: China (100 points)
2nd: North Korea (98 points)
3rd: Cuba (93 points)
4th: Iran (88 points)
5th: Venezuela (85 points)

Anyone else as disturbed by this as I am?

behindthewall.msnbc.msn.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Here's a quick video that was covertly taken in North Korea to show what 98 points gets you: North Korea undercover journalists - Telegraph

edit on 31-5-2011 by Dnevnoi because: Found video

Mm, this has a suspiciously political bias to it imo.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by NadaCambia

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by jonnyb578
so how many of these countries have you been to? how many native people from these countries have you asked about the conditions there? my ex girlfriend was chinese and she says its not as bad there as we here in the west try to make it out to be. you are told communism is bad but its just a different way of doing things. have you ever experienced it first hand? and its not that "democracy" is such a great thing anyway.

primarily we are talking about this list, which is clearly a different level of propaganda than we are used to here, though we are not perfect.


I don't see too many people from the UK, US etc looking to move to North Korea, China etc, can't say the same about the other way- so whilst we are not perfect we are MUCH better than these communist hell holes

Communist hell hole. Have you been to China? Plenty of UK people migrate there. Don't make untrue statements when you have no idea what you're talking about.

I'd rather live in China than the UK. And most people in China are far more happy than British people, I assure you.

Rubbish

It's not rubbish. I've been to China, I have friends living and studying in China. There is an absolute mass of Westerners living in China, you wouldn't believe it.

You're letting your political views disrupt your common sense. Just because a country is politically backwards and lives under a horribly government, that fact doesn't disqualify the citizens from being happy. Or disqualify Westerners from living there and liking the country.

It's a different landscape. Just because people in Fiji are poor, live in crappy housing and live under a Totalitarian government, that doesn't mean they're miserable. They're one of the happiest people in the world.

Leave your house.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by NadaCambia

Originally posted by jonnyb578
reply to post by User8911

 

i personally agree with what youre saying there. i think the only reason communism doesnt seem to work is because the wrong people have been in charge of these governments.

Or, to go one further - It's not the people in charge, it's that the people in general have never been in charge or had anything in the way of influence or voice. I know what you mean completely, but having individuals in control as has happened isn't Communism.

The supposed Communism we see and hear about is Fascism or State Capitalism. By definition the USSR, Cambodia etc were not Communist. Communism has a very technical meaning and is incompatible with Fascism. There is no Fascist Communist regimes, once a regime or government becomes Fascist, they cease to be Communist.

Just as a fat person ceases to be skinny. You can't be both, it's an oxymoron.

Not directed at you, just thought to quote you and lead on from your point

there are few things funnier than a pro communist denying the existince of communist regimes and calling them "fascist"- hey chumbawumba, I can assure you USSR and Cambodia were instances of communism, and resulted in oppression and death- just because you like communism doesn't mean the rest of us have to pretend that these communist states did not exist

Are you winding me up? Communism is the ABSENCE of State. Communism is STATELESS. You have no idea what Communism is. I told you, it has a very technical and precise meaning, you can't just change the definition willy nilly.

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.

The USSR was State Capitalism. Go buy 'Politics for Dummies', I'm sure they make it.

reply to post by blueorder

Rubbish

Im sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. China has many westerners living there. Not just adults, but kids too. You go to any major city in China, and you will see westerners. I think you are just very gullible and believe everything you read or see in the media

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter

Well here in canada is the same as Venezuela

If Canada is so bad, why not trade places with him and move to Venezuela? I'm sure he would be grateful to move to Canada and since you want to get out of Canada I will pay for your plane tickets, if you would really do it. Please think about it and let me know.

Originally posted by Jay-morris
Have you been to China? Do you know how many western people live and work in China? When i first moved to China (beijing) i was amazed at how many western people were living and working in Beijing. I made many good friends in beijing, and yes, many of them were English.

No, and I am aware that some westerners work in China- not seeking asylum or because of poverty here in the UK. I also speak with Chinese people here and they tell me that, like in any society there are some rich people, but for the vast majority in China, they are dirt poor, and not in a UK housing estate, takeaway meals, plasma TV, xbox type poor, proper poor- still living in a one party state

My life in China was great. Not once did i worry about walking the streets on my own, not like i worry in my own country (uk) People are so friendly and go out of there way to help you. There are no gangs of kids beating up on elders for looking at them the wrong way like here in the uk. In China, there is alot of respect.

on the point about social order I will not defend the UK, we lost our way from the 60s onwards, when liberals/leftists infested the establishment, media, education etc and decimated the family and morals, but you do not need a one party state to have safe streets

Now, im talking about the places i have been, and the people i have met. Of course the government is not perfect, and needs to improve on many things, but what government doesn't.

There is no free press, judiciary or even a multi party option- now while the UK situation is not perfect, and Lord knows our 3 party selection process for candidates needs overhauled, thankfully there is a form of democracy here and a freee judiciary/press

Im looking at moving back to China in a few year. I think the way of living, the culture, the people are great. But many people will not know this because they believe the propaganda they hear on the news about China. Many people can't handle the fact that China will be the next super power, simple as that.

You knock yourself out there, and why do I care if China is the next superpower, 99% of their people are living in worse conditions than some of our housing estates

Originally posted by Jay-morris
reply to post by blueorder

 

Rubbish

Im sorry, but you don't know what you are talking about. China has many westerners living there. Not just adults, but kids too. You go to any major city in China, and you will see westerners. I think you are just very gullible and believe everything you read or see in the media

You need to leave asider your prejudice and judgements as to what I read or do not read, I can assure you "the media" *whatever you mean by that* are not how I form my opinions.

Now you say "many"- in this one party state with one billion+ people residing, how many western kids are we talking about here?

Originally posted by NadaCambia
Are you winding me up?

by pointing out your idiotic stance, not deliberately, but if you get wound up so be it

Communism is the ABSENCE of State. Communism is STATELESS. You have no idea what Communism is. I told you, it has a very technical and precise meaning, you can't just change the definition willy nilly.

I know EXACTLY the waffle you are on about- you are talking about some esoteric text book definition of communism, as if communism somehow magics across the world and the nation states and all of a sudden the entire world is communist. Now back in the REAL WORLD, away from text books, communism can only start within nation states, such as the USSR and Cambodia, this is REALITY, not your text book pipe dream (and I have had this silly debate with extreme left wingers before, so don't you worry yourself)

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.

see above, once you leave a textbook and enter the real world, Communism cannot just magic itself across the globe, a click of the fingers and here is a communist world with borders, that is idioitc how you transfer a high level intellectual definition of the extreme leftist ideology into the world of man. Now, in reality, in the world of man, (maybe not your world, you appear to be in the clouds), communism has to work within the limitations of man, including nation states, local divisions etc- and any excersise in Communism outside of a text book will be via the nation state

The USSR was State Capitalism. Go buy 'Politics for Dummies', I'm sure they make it.

too funny mr extreme leftist, you knock yourself out, you maybe should try and leave the clouds and enter the world of man

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by jonnyb578
reply to post by User8911

 

i personally agree with what youre saying there. i think the only reason communism doesnt seem to work is because the wrong people have been in charge of these governments.

It doesn't work outside of a text book, period, if you had robots in the world maybe, but not human beings, it is an ideology of oppression, terror and mass murder in the hands of human beings, so no, no no, how many more genocides must the world experience at the hand of leftist extremists before people stop with this communist pipe dream

It has nothing to do with oppression, terror or murder. That's like me saying hey State Capitalism is about mass murder, racism and slavery. No, it's not. Even if those things have existed or happened in a Capitalist nation, it tells you nothing. You're being fallacious.

Originally posted by NadaCambia

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by jonnyb578
reply to post by User8911

 

i personally agree with what youre saying there. i think the only reason communism doesnt seem to work is because the wrong people have been in charge of these governments.

It doesn't work outside of a text book, period, if you had robots in the world maybe, but not human beings, it is an ideology of oppression, terror and mass murder in the hands of human beings, so no, no no, how many more genocides must the world experience at the hand of leftist extremists before people stop with this communist pipe dream

It has nothing to do with oppression, terror or murder. That's like me saying hey State Capitalism is about mass murder, racism and slavery. No, it's not. Even if those things have existed or happened in a Capitalist nation, it tells you nothing. You're being fallacious.

mr "state capitalism"


Communism has everything to do with oppression, it is how it expresses itself once it leaves a textbook and man gets his grubby little hands on it, it then fosters paranoia, envy, oppression, murder for the greater good, the complete obliteration of what it means to be an individual.

With a click of his fingers, the nation states disappeared and communism emerged, too funny

Originally posted by blueorder
by pointing out your idiotic stance, not deliberately, but if you get wound up so be it

It's not a stance, it's objective fact. Communism has a specific meaning, the USSR and Cambodia are not Communism - It's a matter of fact.

You can't just change the meanings of words to suit your world view. If the USSR was Communist then America is a Monarchy.

I know EXACTLY the waffle you are on about- you are talking about some esoteric text book definition of communism, as if communism somehow magics across the world and the nation states and all of a sudden the entire world is communist. Now back in the REAL WORLD, away from text books, communism can only start within nation states, such as the USSR and Cambodia, this is REALITY, not your text book pipe dream (and I have had this silly debate with extreme left wingers before, so don't you worry yourself)

Yes, I am looking at a text book definition; That's all there is. There is no other definition. What you think is Communism is not. The end.

Finland is a fascist state, why? Because I said so. I don't want to hear about your fantasy text book understanding of Fascism!

see above, once you leave a textbook and enter the real world, Communism cannot just magic itself across the globe, a click of the fingers and here is a communist world with borders, that is idioitc how you transfer a high level intellectual definition of the extreme leftist ideology into the world of man. Now, in reality, in the world of man, (maybe not your world, you appear to be in the clouds), communism has to work within the limitations of man, including nation states, local divisions etc- and any excersise in Communism outside of a text book will be via the nation state

You're making it up as you go along, and proud of your lunacy.

too funny mr extreme leftist, you knock yourself out, you maybe should try and leave the clouds and enter the world of man

Maybe you should enter the world of linguistics.

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by NadaCambia

Originally posted by blueorder

Originally posted by jonnyb578
reply to post by User8911

 

i personally agree with what youre saying there. i think the only reason communism doesnt seem to work is because the wrong people have been in charge of these governments.

It doesn't work outside of a text book, period, if you had robots in the world maybe, but not human beings, it is an ideology of oppression, terror and mass murder in the hands of human beings, so no, no no, how many more genocides must the world experience at the hand of leftist extremists before people stop with this communist pipe dream

It has nothing to do with oppression, terror or murder. That's like me saying hey State Capitalism is about mass murder, racism and slavery. No, it's not. Even if those things have existed or happened in a Capitalist nation, it tells you nothing. You're being fallacious.

mr "state capitalism"

Communism has everything to do with oppression, it is how it expresses itself once it leaves a textbook and man gets his grubby little hands on it, it then fosters paranoia, envy, oppression, murder for the greater good, the complete obliteration of what it means to be an individual.

With a click of his fingers, the nation states disappeared and communism emerged, too funny

Maybe, but that's for another thread - If that's your opinion of Communism you're entitled to it.

My issue is with you wrongly claiming that nations like North Korea and Cambodia are Communist when they objectively are not. Whether you like Communism or not doesn't bother me, factually incorrect statements do.

reply to post by blueorder

No, and I am aware that some westerners work in China- not seeking asylum or because of poverty here in the UK. I also speak with Chinese people here and they tell me that, like in any society there are some rich people, but for the vast majority in China, they are dirt poor, and not in a UK housing estate, takeaway meals, plasma TV, xbox type poor, proper poor- still living in a one party state

No, you have not been to China, but you say they are this and that, even without going there to see for yourself. Many westerners work in China, not just some. My wife (who is Chinese) was poor when she was younger. But she always had a roof over her head and food. In fact, i have been to where she was born, and while its a stone throw away to life in beijing, its not as bad as you make it out, your views, again, through the media

Saying that, i have been through some places where the poverty was bad, and this is something that the chinese government needs to adress, but no one can deny that life in china is getting better. You look at China 30 years ago to the china now, its a huge improvement.

on the point about social order I will not defend the UK, we lost our way from the 60s onwards, when liberals/leftists infested the establishment, media, education etc and decimated the family and morals, but you do not need a one party state to have safe streets

The uk is a joke when it comes to crime, and the way we handle these criminals. And why do we need two parties? all they do is disagree with eachother, thats it. One party does one thing, that means the other party has to do the other, and its a complete joke in my opinion, and the reason why i don't vote because they are all fake. Yes, china has one party, so what? you might have been brainwashed to believe this is wrong, but i have not. China has proved that this can work. Yes, they need to improve more, but they are going in the right direction.

There is no free press, judiciary or even a multi party option- now while the UK situation is not perfect, and Lord knows our 3 party selection process for candidates needs overhauled, thankfully there is a form of democracy here and a freee judiciary/press

Again, China is changing, and yes, they need to open up when it comes to free speach and the media. Saying that, do you think the media is not controlled to a certain extent in the western countries?

You knock yourself out there, and why do I care if China is the next superpower, 99% of their people are living in worse conditions than some of our housing estates

99% lol you clearly do not have a clue

You need to leave asider your prejudice and judgements as to what I read or do not read, I can assure you "the media" *whatever you mean by that* are not how I form my opinions.

Now you say "many"- in this one party state with one billion+ people residing, how many western kids are we talking about here?

So, if its not the media, how do you form your judgements on China. You have not been there, so you don't know what its like to live there. You have not been there, so how do you know how many western people live in China? When i was living there, i used to go and watch the football in the pubs in beijing. Sometimes the pubs would be filled with western people, and sometimes it would be a mix of western and chinese, all singing along together and supporting there tean. Oh, yes, there is a night life in China, filled with pubs and clubs.

My scene is the rock and metal scene, and there was plenty of that too.

As for children. I saw many western children who could speak perfect manderin. Children who had lived there for years. I have seen classes of western children in Beijing, age range from 13-16.

You will not have a clue about China because you have not been there. I lived and travelled China. I have seen the good and the bad. But one thing i have learned since i have been back in the uk, is people will say so much BS about china that they have read through the media, or some other BS way, and of course they believe everything they read/see (sucker) But i have been there, i have lived there, i have travelled china, half my family are now Chinese, so you could say i know a little bit more about china that you..

Originally posted by Jay-morris
reply to post by blueorder

 

No, and I am aware that some westerners work in China- not seeking asylum or because of poverty here in the UK. I also speak with Chinese people here and they tell me that, like in any society there are some rich people, but for the vast majority in China, they are dirt poor, and not in a UK housing estate, takeaway meals, plasma TV, xbox type poor, proper poor- still living in a one party state

No, you have not been to China, but you say they are this and that, even without going there to see for yourself. Many westerners work in China, not just some. My wife (who is Chinese) was poor when she was younger. But she always had a roof over her head and food. In fact, i have been to where she was born, and while its a stone throw away to life in beijing, its not as bad as you make it out, your views, again, through the media

Saying that, i have been through some places where the poverty was bad, and this is something that the chinese government needs to adress, but no one can deny that life in china is getting better. You look at China 30 years ago to the china now, its a huge improvement.

on the point about social order I will not defend the UK, we lost our way from the 60s onwards, when liberals/leftists infested the establishment, media, education etc and decimated the family and morals, but you do not need a one party state to have safe streets

The uk is a joke when it comes to crime, and the way we handle these criminals. And why do we need two parties? all they do is disagree with eachother, thats it. One party does one thing, that means the other party has to do the other, and its a complete joke in my opinion, and the reason why i don't vote because they are all fake. Yes, china has one party, so what? you might have been brainwashed to believe this is wrong, but i have not. China has proved that this can work. Yes, they need to improve more, but they are going in the right direction.

There is no free press, judiciary or even a multi party option- now while the UK situation is not perfect, and Lord knows our 3 party selection process for candidates needs overhauled, thankfully there is a form of democracy here and a freee judiciary/press

Again, China is changing, and yes, they need to open up when it comes to free speach and the media. Saying that, do you think the media is not controlled to a certain extent in the western countries?

You knock yourself out there, and why do I care if China is the next superpower, 99% of their people are living in worse conditions than some of our housing estates

99% lol you clearly do not have a clue

You need to leave asider your prejudice and judgements as to what I read or do not read, I can assure you "the media" *whatever you mean by that* are not how I form my opinions.

Now you say "many"- in this one party state with one billion+ people residing, how many western kids are we talking about here?

So, if its not the media, how do you form your judgements on China. You have not been there, so you don't know what its like to live there. You have not been there, so how do you know how many western people live in China? When i was living there, i used to go and watch the football in the pubs in beijing. Sometimes the pubs would be filled with western people, and sometimes it would be a mix of western and chinese, all singing along together and supporting there tean. Oh, yes, there is a night life in China, filled with pubs and clubs.

My scene is the rock and metal scene, and there was plenty of that too.

As for children. I saw many western children who could speak perfect manderin. Children who had lived there for years. I have seen classes of western children in Beijing, age range from 13-16.

You will not have a clue about China because you have not been there. I lived and travelled China. I have seen the good and the bad. But one thing i have learned since i have been back in the uk, is people will say so much BS about china that they have read through the media, or some other BS way, and of course they believe everything they read/see (sucker) But i have been there, i have lived there, i have travelled china, half my family are now Chinese, so you could say i know a little bit more about china that you..

Where'd you get to? My Uncles in Jinan for 2 weeks as we speak, then heading to Sri Lanka for 4 weeks.

I think it's worth pointing out too, regarding the comment you responded to about Plasma TV's and the like, that technological advancements and happiness does not go hand in hand. I assure you(not you personally, readers in general) hand on heart, regardless of political views, I would much rather live in the abject poverty of rural China than spend my days in a British council house.

I think for people like blue it's hard to understand how people can be happy without these material things, and so it's believed they're living a life of misery and suffering, and anyone suggesting otherwise is lying or a Commie... or both, even.

Some of the happiest countries and peoples on earth are piss-poor.

I've made an odd discovery. Every time I talk to a savant I feel quite sure that happiness is no longer a possibility. Yet when I talk with my gardener, I'm convinced of the opposite.
Bertrand Russell

A British guy, a Frenchman and a Russian were in a bar debating whether Adam and Eve were British, French, or Russian.

The British guy says, " Obviously they were both British, observe how Adam offered Eve some of his apple after he received it from her, true British manners".

French guy says: "Non, non, monsieur they were both French. First of all they were both NAKED, and Eve was so feminine and seductive and drove Adam nuts".

Russian guy says: "Both of you are wrong. I can prove conclusively that Adam and Eve were nothing but Russian.

1) They had no clothes.

2) They had no heat.

3) All that was left to eat was one lousy apple and they called THIS paradise!"

reply to post by NadaCambia


To be honest, i don't think blueorder knows what he is talking about I met my wife in the uk while she was at uni. We were together for a year and her uni was finished, and she asked me to go back to China with her. I said yes, but was worried because i had never been there before.

But, i ended up loving it there. I met other uk people through a website. I eneded up joining a 6 a side football team, going to many gigs, basically having a really good time. Work was ok because im a web designer and got work in the uk. I have many photos, but the only place i have them online is facebook.

My wife is 25 weeks pregnant now, and we are really considering moving back to China. Yes,some people who have never been to China will believe all teh rumours and BS they hear about China, but to tell you the truth, i could do all the things in China i could do in the uk. The only thing i had trouble with was accessing certain websites outside of China, but i could live with that.

My wife was a producer for MTV asia in beijing, so i also met some really interesting people.

Yes, we all know China is not perfect, but no country is, but for me personally, life in China is better than life in the UK.Everyday im worried about running into a group of kids who will throw abuse at me if my eyes came across theirs. There just seems to be no respect here in teh uk anymore. China is very different when it comes to that. Not once did i come across trouble while walking the beijing streets alone, or having a night out with friends, its just better.

Oh, and the food is the best in the world, in my opinion

Originally posted by Jay-morris
reply to post by NadaCambia

 

To be honest, i don't think blueorder knows what he is talking about

I met my wife in the uk while she was at uni. We were together for a year and her uni was finished, and she asked me to go back to China with her. I said yes, but was worried because i had never been there before.

But, i ended up loving it there. I met other uk people through a website. I eneded up joining a 6 a side football team, going to many gigs, basically having a really good time. Work was ok because im a web designer and got work in the uk. I have many photos, but the only place i have them online is facebook.

My wife is 25 weeks pregnant now, and we are really considering moving back to China. Yes,some people who have never been to China will believe all teh rumours and BS they hear about China, but to tell you the truth, i could do all the things in China i could do in the uk. The only thing i had trouble with was accessing certain websites outside of China, but i could live with that.

My wife was a producer for MTV asia in beijing, so i also met some really interesting people.

Yes, we all know China is not perfect, but no country is, but for me personally, life in China is better than life in the UK.Everyday im worried about running into a group of kids who will throw abuse at me if my eyes came across theirs. There just seems to be no respect here in teh uk anymore. China is very different when it comes to that. Not once did i come across trouble while walking the beijing streets alone, or having a night out with friends, its just better.

Oh, and the food is the best in the world, in my opinion

Hate Chinese food! Not sure why, everyone else can't shut up about it, you'd find me ordering McDonalds every other day!

Do you have a website, just curious? You're in a good position and I'm in a similar boat; In that I'm a handy graphic designer but mainly focus on internet marketing now. Most people are unable to set up shop in new towns, let alone new countries! I feel blessed to make money via the internet, and best still I can exploit the exchange rate We can live like KINGS! I was living in Malaysia for about 30 quid a week lmfao

1st: China (100 points)
2nd: North Korea (98 points)
3rd: Cuba (93 points)
4th: Iran (88 points)
5th: Venezuela (85 points)

When they themselves start to see themselves as a group, nobody can any longer say that the West is fabricating an Axis of Evil.

Truly a list of evil repressive societies that are banding together because they know their time is short.

i bet the same people here that are saying all of these countries are evil communist states probably dont believe what their own governments tell them. so why do you believe what you are told about other countries?