Best martial art for survival when the brown stuff starts flying around

Originally posted by GringoViejo
reply to post by solomons path

 

I admit i have a bit of a bias too

But it's based on the results of many an open tournament

Also, two words:

Group testing.

GringoViejo: We are all biased toward our own art, and the best thing you can do is find a way to test what you are learning. I personally respect most martial arts, because I know the person is what makes the art. I'm biased a against MMA because I think it's trendy, and because people who don't actually train 3+ days per week on a combat art have no idea what the difference is between life and death combat training and sport fight training.

To add to what you said, I would tell you to RUN, don't walk, from schools that have a policy of not making contact with each other. There are a lot of these schools. Having done it both ways, I can tell you that the non-contact school is dealing with too much theory and not enough application.

You *will* go home with a bloody lip (and other small injuries) on a regular basis if you go to a school that uses "moderate" contact during training, but you will also learn how to deal with more realistic incoming attacks.

Originally posted by neo96
my vote is gun keet do

yeah i made that name up cause a gun wins more fights than it ever lost one.

practice what christian bale did in equilibrium.

gives kung pow new meaning.

when you dont have a gun and if its a dude which of course it most likely will be

one hard kick to the groin brings any man down.

your fighting to win not to be a good sport.

haha gun fu is so impractical unless you can control your nerves and have pinpoint accuracy

I refuse to own or even use a gun unless i'd have to but even then, the definition of "having to" is up for debate.

i'd prefer a hand to hand over a gun fight because I know i'd come out alive. a gun fight is not my forte (that I know of, i'm actually insane at paintball. people call me urban ninja because i'll flank half their team in 5 minutes running right up the middle or crawling right by them) a combination of these skills would be deadly to any force,
of course once again, putting them into practical uses is key.

the key to survival is not to fight to fight, but to fight to kill. it's why I don't play fight, or practice with friends. because the moment i'm in survival mode, i'm in it to win it and it's war. I will do it in the quickest dirtiest way possible.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by JeepOrDie

 

well in this thread it is a shtf which means the rule of law is non existent.

and most people will be carrying around a gun

and it takes years of mastering any martial art to begin with.

if it takes a person years to be ablie to pick up a gun and aim center mass within 10 to 20 feet and miss

then i feel sorry for them.

most people fail to realize just how up close and personal most gun exhanges are.

As I said, most "gun" people overestimate their own skill, especially in a scuffle. I own guns. I get it.

If you plan to be a true survivalist, you better learn some hand-to-hand combat. Why do you think our elite military are trained empty hand combat? A gun is not always an idea solution in the first place.

By the way, law enforcement and military are required to practice using their weapons, and they have to do it as long as they are in service. If you plan to be good with a handgun under pressure, you better be training.

Martial arts do require time and patience to learn, but you get so much more back out of them then you put in, and this goes beyond the actual fighting skill.

reply to post by JeepOrDie


A survivor should learn how to survive. Engaging in hand to hand combat is not trying to survive.
That is engaging in a risk of being hurt or killed.

A survivor should learn how to keep he's cool, and look for a way out of a combat situation before it occurs.

reply to post by JeepOrDie


That's pretty much what I felt about Taekwondo "back in the day" so to speak. It became very "trendy" IMO around the late 80s and through the early to mid 90s.

What I am thankful for, is that my style encourages learning from other styles. Butokukan was a great style for me, because it taught me many more things than just how to defend myself. The affirmations, for example:

I am a faithful member of Butokukan.
I use Butokukan only in defense of myself, my loved ones, and in defense of my country.
I always respect my seniors as I do my Senseis.
I never make false statements to members of Butokukan.
I never do anything that would degrade Butokukan as a Martial Art.
These rules and laws I will ever hold true I am (your name) .

I also like the fact that you cant test for your first black belt until you are least 18. Exceptions are made, but it is rare.

But to the point, I have endured many a injury during my training. I have also learned first hand that my training worked as it was meant to, when it was meant to. The reason I believe in it, is because I won't be going out lokking for a fight when "SHTF." But I know I will be prepared if it happens.

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by JeepOrDie

 

A survivor should learn how to survive. Engaging in hand to hand combat is not trying to survive.
That is engaging in a risk of being hurt or killed.

A survivor should learn how to keep he's cool, and look for a way out of a combat situation before it occurs.

If you understood martial arts, at least many of the Eastern styles, you would know that the philosophy you just stated about avoiding a fight in the first place, is an intrinsic aspect of them. However, you don't always have the option to avoid a fight, especially in this world we live in today.

I was sitting at the movie theater the other night, and some guy had accidentally kicked the back of some punk's chair a couple times, and the punk went nuts threatening to beat him down if he did it again. These situations have ways of finding you even if you are practicing avoidance. A survivalist knows this. In fact, I would say that everything a survivalist does is to mitigate worst case scenarios. How do you avoid a disaster scenario when you don't know when it's coming?

Originally posted by GringoViejo
reply to post by JeepOrDie

 

That's pretty much what I felt about Taekwondo "back in the day" so to speak. It became very "trendy" IMO around the late 80s and through the early to mid 90s.

What I am thankful for, is that my style encourages learning from other styles. Butokukan was a great style for me, because it taught me many more things than just how to defend myself. The affirmations, for example:

I am a faithful member of Butokukan.
I use Butokukan only in defense of myself, my loved ones, and in defense of my country.
I always respect my seniors as I do my Senseis.
I never make false statements to members of Butokukan.
I never do anything that would degrade Butokukan as a Martial Art.
These rules and laws I will ever hold true I am (your name) .

I also like the fact that you cant test for your first black belt until you are least 18. Exceptions are made, but it is rare.

Yes, this is what I am talking about. It sounds like you had a great martial school. I have a good friend who is a kung fu brother at my school, and when he first started going, he was very timid. He was one of those people that gets picked on and walked over by predators and bullies. He would even go so far as to try to start conversations during training to derail the training process so he could avoid it because he didn't like the hard work.

I watched him transform into proficient practitioner, at his level, and a confident person in general. That confidence has followed him into his dealing with other people and in business. He no longer gets walked on and he is ready to do the walking if he has to. It has changed him profoundly. I'm sure people could tell you how it has changed me, but all I know about myself is that I feel good.

The other things you mentioned such as honor, a sense of family / brotherhood, maintaining an old tradition in a modern world that could use more tradition, and all of the other positive aspects of martial arts are overlooked these days. Martial practice is not just about fighting, it's about becoming a better person. At least that is how I see it.

Originally posted by JeepOrDie

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by JeepOrDie

 

A survivor should learn how to survive. Engaging in hand to hand combat is not trying to survive.
That is engaging in a risk of being hurt or killed.

A survivor should learn how to keep he's cool, and look for a way out of a combat situation before it occurs.

If you understood martial arts, at least many of the Eastern styles, you would know that the philosophy you just stated about avoiding a fight in the first place, is an intrinsic aspect of them. However, you don't always have the option to avoid a fight, especially in this world we live in today.

I was sitting at the movie theater the other night, and some guy had accidentally kicked the back of some punk's chair a couple times, and the punk went nuts threatening to beat him down if he did it again. These situations have ways of finding you even if you are practicing avoidance. A survivalist knows this. In fact, I would say that everything a survivalist does is to mitigate worst case scenarios. How do you avoid a disaster scenario when you don't know when it's coming?

exactly, most teach situational awareness very early on to avoid having to use your methods against them.
but theres times when it's impossible and you have no choice but to fight.

perfect example is, I went for a walk around my block one day, I went through this forest trail where a group of 5 and one girl were hanging out, I walked by them, the girl started to swear and attempt to degrade me, I responded by shaking my head at them (I should have done nothing) they took offense and I got surrounded. I couldn't run.
I had to fight. needless to say, I survived, no cuts, bruises. I would like to say that it was because of my training I was able to take them so easily, but it was their lack of training that gave me so many options.

My favorite is .45 ACP, but I will use .44 mag if necessary.

Oh, we're not talking about the real world? Then my choice is drunken boxing and capoeira.

I just wanted to share this video with you before I go out for the day, give you a visual of the potential "perfect" martial art.

the actual fighting begins around 1:05 if you don't want to or haven't seen this movie before

www.youtube.com...

the user decided to disable embedding. so that ruined this good thought lol. oh well you can still check out the link

I find it fascinating that the writers and stunt choreographers can visualize such a thing. The timing is spot on.
If you try, you can find yourself moving like that dark dressed character.

obviously this is a movie, and it is ment for entertainment, but one can take certain things like this and make it a practical tool in your arsenal. The fluidity of the movements in correlation with impeciable timing gives life to an almost seemingly impossible fighting style. almost.

reply to post by OoohLaDeDa


How about, Gun-Fu with a little wise-up on the trigger finger

There's no 'Best' just what works for you when the time comes

Street-fighting skills are probably what will be the order of day for most people when the time comes...

I will continue to put my faith in togakure ryu ninpo taijutsu. it works and is real fun

Also fighting is not a sport so you shouldn't even train like it is. You will fight the way you train and I know some people train to kill, and quick... gun or not

Excellent instructor in southern california

u2u me if you would like his name. or google it

I came to a realization about a year into my training. The very act of consistently going to a good martial school and training to fight, just that act alone, makes you a better fighter than you were, and a better fighter than most people who don't train at all. It's easy to sit back and say "martial arts suck" and "I'll just pull out my .44, Eastwood style", when you have never even tried to train hand-to-hand.

I could write a long list, but the gist of it is that it changes you. Even just learning to look at people with combat in mind changes things. You are training to think about fighting 3+ days per week, and most people are not. If you are learning a good, street-useful art, you are learning how people move, where their soft spots are, how to control their hands, how to use your body and the ground to develop more power, solid footwork that keeps you rooted and the other person off-balance, when a person is getting ready to hit or kick you, and a whole list of other things.

Take a look at Bruce Lee's famous stopping kicks and punches. Yes, he was fast, but there are other more mundane things at play as well. A straight punch to the centerline (see centerline theory) gets to the target faster than a non-straight punch, speed being equal. Learning how to read a person's body to know if a kick or punch is coming, and from where is also something you learn in a good martial art. Bruce had speed, but he also had other training and martial arts principles combined with it.

One thing that blew me away in Wing Chun was that we stay bridged with the opponents hands, so we can feel everything their body is doing. You can feel when your opponent is off balance, and which direction for example so you can pull or push them that direction.

Bah, I love talking about this stuff, but you get what I am saying. Training is better than not training, no matter what art you choose. Even a pure street brawler is training by the act of often getting into fights. Hell, take up boxing if you aren't into martial arts.

reply to post by JeepOrDie


Absolutely correct.. I took a guy to the ground in a fight once expecting him to act someone would in competition and the guy tried gouging my eyes. I learned you can't use a sport mentality on the street. But once he got up a knee to the face from the Thai clinch ended things pretty fast.

My point is that yes people will use dirty tactics and you should prepare for them, but I'll take a trained MMArtist over a street fighter any day of the week.

There is something to be taken from almost any martial arts form that can be useful in a SHTF scenario.

For instance, I see a lot of people praising Muy Thai... but that is a stand up, striking, martial art. It will do you absolutely no good when that fight goes to the ground and you find your striking ability limited. You hit the ground against a wrestler (which MANY people know a little about) or someone who knows Jui Jitsu and your Muy Thai is useless and you are unconscious or dead.

My advice for anyone serious about learning how to defend themselves is find a Mixed Martial Arts school, or a school that teaches a greater variety of realistic street fighting techniques. Some place that will teach you about how to fight from any position or improve your position so you have a chance. Learn how to fight standing up, learn to fight from the ground, learn to fight from the clinch or very close combat. Krav Magra is great for learning crowd control and how to fight multiple opponents. However if you know Jui Jitsu and you have to fight multiple opponents, going to the ground would be absolutely stupid to do, while you have one person tied up and choking him out, you'll have others kicking you in the head.

So there really is no one martial art that is any better than another. It is a silly debate. Fact is, when you fight there are a number of positions and situations you can find yourself in. You will not always be able to control everything, so you should be adaptable and able to survive no matter where the fight takes you.

Originally posted by Buddha1098
reply to post by JeepOrDie

 

Absolutely correct.. I took a guy to the ground in a fight once expecting him to act someone would in competition and the guy tried gouging my eyes. I learned you can't use a sport mentality on the street. But once he got up a knee to the face from the Thai clinch ended things pretty fast.

My point is that yes people will use dirty tactics and you should prepare for them, but I'll take a trained MMArtist over a street fighter any day of the week.

I agree with you. I don't want anyone to think that I am saying MMA training is useless, but if you intend to use it as a form of self-defense, you have to be aware of what you aren't trained for. Think of all the things you are not allowed to do in an MMA competition fight, and that will be a good starting point for you to consider what a street fighter or street martial artist will be trying to do to you.

At my school, last night in fact, we had a discussion about strikes that are not allowed in sports fighting. We often have discussions about this because my Sifu teaches us that nothing is off the table in a life or death situation where we are defending ourselves. We were talking about strikes to the back of the head when we get around someone using footwork, or by pulling them in. This is known as a Rabbit Punch in boxing, and is illegal because it is deadly.

Aikido is my recommendation, probably the best all around defense art, IMO. My whole family trains in this. Ninjitsu is also great. And any and all of the others work.

The best one though is what works best for you! But the big thing is to keep practicing and learning, none of them do any good if you don't work at it.

reply to post by JeepOrDie

One thing that blew me away in Wing Chun was that we stay bridged with the opponents hands, so we can feel everything their body is doing. You can feel when your opponent is off balance, and which direction for example so you can pull or push them that direction.

Would Pak Sao (there are three other "sao" techniques, it's been ages since I've had to know the exact name. fook sao i think is one.) and the like be from Wing Chung? It's a part of my style that I believe has originated from Wing Chun... Or maybe Itosu-Ryu... I can't remember now

Originally posted by GringoViejo
reply to post by JeepOrDie

 

One thing that blew me away in Wing Chun was that we stay bridged with the opponents hands, so we can feel everything their body is doing. You can feel when your opponent is off balance, and which direction for example so you can pull or push them that direction.

Would Pak Sao (there are three other "sao" techniques, it's been ages since I've had to know the exact name. fook sao i think is one.) and the like be from Wing Chung? It's a part of my style that I believe has originated from Wing Chun... Or maybe Itosu-Ryu... I can't remember now

'Sau' basically means 'hand', and is often combined with the type of movement you are doing (pac sau, tan sau, wu sau, bong sau, etc). We do use these terms in Wing Chun, and some other Chinese arts as well. I don't know if Japanese arts would use the same exact terms, but I would assume not since it's Cantonese language.

I also wanted to say that I have had a great time in this thread. I love talking about hand-to-hand combat, and while I practice Wing Chun and can talk intelligently about it, I also do not bash other arts or claim that mine is the ultimate art. It's the ultimate art for me, and that's all that matters. Your mileage and situation may vary, and when it comes to fighting for real, you never know what will happen. I choose to train rather than not, and I enjoy for many more reasons than just the combat part.

I don't think I am Mr. Tough Guy either. That isn't what this discussion is about. If any of you have been thinking about getting into martial arts, just go do it. I am in my late 30's and started, well, I guess it's almost two and a half years ago now. You aren't too young or too old to get started and become good at it. I am planning to eventually instruct, and indeed I already do help my Sifu instruct lower level students as part of my curriculum.

It's a blast, and the rewards are many.