Book of Revelation: A REAL Vision' or a FAKE Prophecy' PatchedTogether from Scraps of 'Old" Test

'Book of Revelation’ : A ‘Fake Prophecy' Sewn Together from Scraps of 'Old" Testament Writings ?

Big Question. Complicated History. Many 'Possible Answers' You be the Judge....

The Core Issue is this : over 94% of the confused & howlingly un-grammatical Greek words & phrases found in the mangled hand-copied texts of the 'canonical' Greek book 'The Apocalypse of Yohanon' (aka 'The Book of Revelation' which is Singular, please...) are actually composed of stolen (or more politely, 'adapted') key words, Images & direct/indirect Quotations from older Hebrew Scriptrues (esp. prophetic/apocalyptic types) -

And more often than not, these are not literallly quoted in the form of the MT (Masoretic Text of the Old Testament) read by moderhn Rabinnic Jews and Protestants to-day - but are quoted & adapted from the looser citations mucch more similar to the Dead Sea Scroll versions & other older Targumic paraphrase citations (e.g. the Old Testaments text which Theodotion later favoured) of the Hebrew Prophetic Books and the Psalms - which are known to be much earlier than the later ‘canonical’ texts reflected in the Masoretic Text (MT) from Leningrad c. 980 AD).

The sheer number of these evident 'literary borrowings' (with adaptations) by the Author(s) of the Book of Revelation ('Yohanon' whoever he was) that seem to be direct rip-offs from earlier Hebrew scriptures is staggeringly high – certainly far too closely adapted/copied out to be ‘mere chance co-incidence’-

Which begs a rather thorny Question:

Did the 'author' of the 'Book of Revelation' really have a 'vision' of the End Times, or did he just patch something together, being bored to tears on the tiny island of Patmos during the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome?

So....Ready or Not.. Here comes a tiny piece the Evidence..

(I'll break it up into bite size pieces over several posts - all of which taken together might turn out to be quite a shock to those out there who are ignorant of the Hebrew Scriptures to begin with...)

Four Horses of the Apocalypse, you say? - See Zechariah chapter 6: 1-5 ref: the 4-Horses

And I looked, and behold, I saw : lo, 4 Chariots came out of Two [Copper] Mountains :
And behold, in the 1st Chariot were Red Horses; and in the 2nd Chariot were Black Horses;
And in the 3rd Chariot were White Horses; and in the 4th Chariot were Grissled-Grey Horses
And I turned to the Angel next to me & asked him, saying: My Lord, what are these ?
And the Angel answered me saying, These Four Horses are the Four Spirits of the Heavens,
Even they which go forth unto all the earth from standing before the Throne of YHWH…

Now compare the ‘expanded Adaptation’ of Zechariah’s 4-Horses in the Book of Revelation chapter 6:1-6

And I saw when the Lamb opened the 1st Hazak Seal, I heard something like a Thunderclap,
And behold, the 1st of the 4 Beasts spoke to me, saying, Come and see…
And I saw, & lo, a White Horse & he that sat thereon had a Bow in his Right Hand;
And lo, a Crown was given to him and conquering he went forth to conquer still more.

And when he had opened the 2nd Hazak Seal, I heard the 2nd Beast saying, Come & see...
And there trotted forth a Red Horse; and lo, the Power was given to him that sat thereon
Even to Remove the PAX which had previously existed from the earth [or, 'land of Yisro'el] ,
And lo, a Great Sword was being given to him.that every man should slay his brother

And when the Ram had broken the 3rd Hazak Seal, lo, I heard the 3rd Beast say, Come & See...
And I beheld, and lo a Black Horse; and he that sat on him had a Pair of Scales in his hand.
And I heard a Voice from the middle of the 4 Beasts saying: A Hin of Wheat for a Denarius
Yea, 3 Hins of Barley for single Denarius – oh, and don't bruise the Oil or the Wine !


And when he broke the 4th Hazak Seal, I heard the voice of the 4th Beast saying, Come & see.
And I looked & lo, a Pale-green Horse & the Name of its Rider was Mot ( or Mavet =’Death’):
And lo, She’ol sat close behind & Power was given unto them over a 4th part of the Land
Even to kill with Sword & by Starvation & by Pestilence & by the Earth’s poisonous creatures


cf: Isa. 66:15

For behold, YHWH is coming like Fire, his Chariots like the Whirlwind
In order to spend his Anger with his Fury, and project his Rebuke with Firey Flames


Jer. 4:13

Behold, he shall rise up like the Clouds, his Chariots like the Whirlwind –
Yea, his Horses are Swifter than Eagles, Therefore Woe to us !


What about something a little more 'literally stolen' rather than just loosley 'adapted' ?

See the Image of the Vampirific Blood Feast of YHWH from the Book of Hezekiel

Hezekiel chapter 39:17-19 :

And YHWH spake to me, saying:
Son of man, Hear what the clan god YHWH says:

“Summon every feathered Fowl of the Air & every wild Beast of the Field:
And say to them : ‘Assemble yourselves & come together from all around
Even to the Sacrifice that I am now preparing for you,
even the great sacrifice on the Mountains of Israel.

There you will eat flesh and drink blood of Mighty Men
Yea, you will eat the flesh & drink the blood of the Princes of the earth
As so much Flesh of Rams and Lambs & Goats & Bulls
—all of them fattened animals from Bashan.

For at the sacrifice I am preparing for you,
You will eat the Flesh until you are glutted by it
And you will drink the Blood till you are drunk.

Yea, you shall eat both horses and riders,
Even the mighty men and soldiers of every kind
Thus you will be Filled at my Table. “


Then compare what we see in the Mangled Greek of the Book of Revelation's 'Borrowing' of Hezekiel's image of the Blood drinking Vampires :

Rev. 19:17ff

And I looked, and behold I saw: An Angel standing in the sun,
And cried in a loud Voice to all the Birds encircling the air, saying
Come, gather yoruselves together for the great Feast of EL
That you may eat the flesh of Kings & Princes & Mighty Men
Along with the flesh of Horses and the Corpses of their Riders,
Even the Flesh of all the Gentiles, free and slave, great and small.”

And I looked, & behold, I saw: The Beast & Kings of the Earth
Were all gathering themselves together, along with their Armies were
Even to wage war against the Rider of the White Horse & against his Army…
And lo, they were all slain in battle by the Rider of the White Horse
Even by Him whose Sharpened Two Edged Sword dangled from his Lips
And behold, all the Birds began swooping to gorge themselves on their flesh.


There are so many more 'literary borrowings' in the Book of Revelation from older Hebrew Scriptures (and sometimes from non-canonical literature found among the Dead Sea Scroll corpus, sealed up in AD 68) in fact far too many to list - but these two smal examples should be enough to show what the author was up to....

So......What thinkst ye? Was the Book of Revelation based on Real Visions OR was it just a fake literary Adaptation (=rip-off) from the Hebrew prophetic wrrtings and Psalms (=i.e. not a Real Vision at all) ?

reply to post by Sigismundus


Dear Sigismundus,

The author of Revelations knew the old testament and knew others did. He used terms knowing that others would see that they were references to the old testament. Your post seems to assume that he was trying to plagerize when he knew people would see the references and understand them as such. The only way to understand any of Revelations is to understand the old testament, that was the purpose.

I'll just leave this here...

www.heartnsoul.com...

For the record, yes I believe it was a real vision, not a plagiarized work.

reply to post by Sigismundus


I agree with you, as with everything been passed down, written and talk about as in the bible is all man made and bias, the stories in the bible, including the "revelation" are nothing but the imagination of many authors.

But don't tell that to the bible believers because they will never do the research to find the truth as long as is not part of the bible itself.

reply to post by AdamsMurmur

Wel... see the Lament against Tyre in the Book of Hezekiel chapter 27

then compare it with the Lament over Babylon in Rev. chapter 18


‘This is what the god YHWH says:
“‘You say, Tyre, “I am perfect in beauty.”
Yea. with your awnings of blue & purple & crimson cloth
Sailors from every ship at sea came to trade for your wares -
Yea they brought your Beauty to completion.
Tarshish did business with you for your great wealth of goods;
they exchanged silver, iron, tin and lead for your merchandise.
They traded human beings and articles of bronze for your wares.

Men of Beth Togarmah exchanged chariot horses,
And cavalry horses and mules - just for your merchandise.
They exchanged turquoise, purple fabric, embroidered work,
And fine linen, coral and rubies - just for your merchandise.
Damascus did business with you because of your many products
And because they desired your great wealth of goods.

They offered wine from Helbon, wool from Zahar
They traded casks of wine from Izal - just for your wares
They exchanged wrought iron, cassia and calamus.
The merchants of Sheba and Raamah traded with you;
they exchanged the finest of all kinds of spices, precious stones, gold.

Just because they wanted to purchase your merchandise
In your marketplace they traded with you for your beautiful garments,
For your blue fabric, embroidered work and multicolored rugs
Even luxury Carpets made with finely wrough cords twisted & tightly knotted.
The ships of Tarshish serve as carriers for your wares.
You were once filled with heavy cargo as you sailed the seas.
Your oarsmen took you out far from shore, even to the high seas.

But the east wind will break you to pieces when you are far out at sea.
All of your wealth, all of your merchandise and all of your wares,
All of your mariners, your sailors and your Shipwrights,
All of your Merchants and all your soldiers,
and everyone else on board will sink into the heart of the sea :
The shorelands will begin to quake and to tremble in terror
When your Sailors will all cry out on the day of your shipwreck.


All who handle the oars will abandon their ships;
the mariners and all the sailors will stand on the shore.
They will raise their voice and cry bitterly over you;
they will sprinkle dust on their heads and roll in ashes.
They will shave their heads because of you and will put on sackcloth.
They will weep over you with anguish of soul and with bitter mourning.

As they mourn over you, they will take up a lament concerning you:
Saying “Who was ever silenced like Tyre, by the sea?”

When your merchandise went out on the seas, you satisfied many nations;
with your great wealth and your wares you enriched the kings of the earth.
Now you are shattered by the sea in the depths of the waters;
your wares and all your company have gone down with you.

All who live in the coastlands will be appalled at you;
Yea, their kings will shudder with horror and their faces are distorted with fear.
The merchants among the nations scoff at you;
you have come to a horrible end - you will be no more.’”


Now compare that with the Lament Over Babylon in the Book of Revelation chapter 18

“When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury
yea when they see the smoke of her burning,
they will weep and mourn over her.
Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:

‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, you mighty city of Babylon!
In one hour your doom has come!’



“The merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her
because no one buys their cargoes anymore—
cargoes of gold, silver, precious stones and pearls;
fine linen, purple, silk and scarlet cloth;
every sort of citron wood, and articles of every kind made of ivory,
costly wood, bronze, iron and marble;
cargoes of cinnamon and spice, of incense, myrrh and frankincense,
of wine and olive oil, of fine flour and wheat;
cattle and sheep; horses and carriages; and human beings sold as slaves.



“They will say, ‘The fruit you longed for is gone from you.
All your luxury and splendor have vanished, never to be recovered.’
The merchants who sold these things and gained their wealth from her will stand far off,
terrified at her torment and will weep and mourn and cry out:

“‘Woe! Woe to you, great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet,
& glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!

In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’


Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors,
and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off.
When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim,
‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’


They will throw dust on their heads,
and with weeping and mourning cry out:
Woe! Woe to you, great city,
where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!’


Just a change co-incidence, you say? I think not.

You should not confine your search for Book of Revelation source material to the Old Testament. I believe that the “mortal wound” to the head of the beast is an allusion to this event in Josephus’ Wars of the Jews, Book 5, Chapter 13, Paragraph 3:

“In the mean time, Josephus, as he was going round the city (Jerusalem), had his head wounded by a stone that was thrown at him; upon which he fell down as giddy. Upon which fall of his the Jews made a sally, and he had been hurried away into the city, if Caesar had not sent men to protect him immediately; and as these men were fighting, Josephus was taken up, though he heard little of what was done. So the seditious supposed they had now slain that man whom they were the most desirous of killing, and made thereupon a great noise, in way of rejoicing. This accident was told in the city, and the multitude that remained became very disconsolate at the news, as being persuaded that he was really dead, on whose account alone they could venture to desert to the Romans. But when Josephus's mother heard in prison that her son was dead, she said to those that watched about her, That she had always been of opinion, since the siege of Jotapata, [that he would be slain,] and she should never enjoy him alive any more. She also made great lamentation privately to the maid-servants that were about her, and said, That this was all the advantage she had of bringing so extraordinary a person as this son into the world; that she should not be able even to bury that son of hers, by whom she expected to have been buried herself. However, this false report did not put his mother to pain, nor afford merriment to the robbers, long; for Josephus soon recovered of his wound, and came out, and cried out aloud, That it would not be long ere they should be punished for this wound they had given him. He also made a fresh exhortation to the people to come out upon the security that would be given them. This sight of Josephus encouraged the people greatly, and brought a great consternation upon the seditious.”

The description of someone surviving a mortal wound is not a common event so if we can find two such events we should make a connection.

Of course there is great correlation between Revelation and the other books of the NT and Tanakh. Anyone who has had an in-depth study of Revelation knows the entire book is in code and the "codes" are answered somewhere in the Bible.

What a monumental non-story.

Real vision. GK Beales commentary on Revelation has absolutely loads of OT Biblical references.
The problem is that people assume that the book ofRevelation is just for the last days, where in fact it is the revelation by Jesus Christ.

reply to post by sinthia


Beales is quite good, Dr. Chuck Missler's Expositional Commentary is a bit better. It's pretty long and expensive, but I highly recommend it to anyone.

One might look at the Revelation Book as fashioned like a Quilt....


using codes & little understood thought lines from a host of past contibuters (hence the Quilt analogy)

John of Patmos... created a 'new' narrative using many parts from other writings, not as a plagerism tool but as a reworking of a more complete Story.... the end of days eschatology


see, John (the johanon or whomever you cited) saw the deeper meaning of past writings, the visions from the past had dual applications and he was aware of that where no one else was...sorta like the various 'Bible codes' are uncovered today,
John the author saw the 'visions' (AKA; deeper meanings) and put them into a number of sequences found in the book of Revelation.


thanks

Originally posted by AdamsMurmur
I'll just leave this here...

www.heartnsoul.com...

For the record, yes I believe it was a real vision, not a plagiarized work.

New Age garbage.

"You can become gods"

Same lie satan told Eve in the garden, just repackaged for the 21st century.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Dear NoturTypical,

Gnosticism never left us and their answers are still the same. But you know that. And Jesus said that their book called them little gods and he agreed. They just didn't understand what he meant. It is in the church today, gnostic teachings that we are little gods. Name and claim it religion. People are deceived by having their ears tickled. All are entitled to their beliefs, we just need to keep our house in order. Be well.

reply to post by AQuestion


I'll believe you are a little god when you call an entire universe into existence with a single spoken sentence.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I'll believe you are a little god when you call an entire universe into existence with a single spoken sentence.

In a post above you take the liberty of calling something 'new-age garbage' (it's not that I generally disagree with you on that point. New-age'ism is filled with speculations and postulates).

But then presenting your own 'garbage' in the form of a postulate of anyone bringing a universe into existence with a single sentence reduces your credibility to 'garbage' level also. Unless you ofcourse mean, that NO 'god' has done this at all.

Your doctrinal 'garbage' is just as unvalidated as any gnostic or semi-gnostic positions (except in the case of introducing the doctrine of 'original sin' as a central point in many of the christianities. Gnosticism definitely scores a point on rationality by rejecting 'original sin').

reply to post by St Udio

Hi St Udio -

How can you claim that the 'Book of Revelation' (as it stands now in the mangled and highly ungrammatical Greek texts, and not in its original Hebrew-Aramaic Vorlage - alas now lost) is not downright plagiarism from the Hebrew Prophets, Psalms and Dead Sea material?

I would like everyone to compare closely (esp the Targum version) the words of Hezekiel 3:3-5 with Rev 10: 1-11

Targum Hez. 3:3-5

And YHWH said to me, "Son of man, eat the Scroll which you see before your face[s] and fill your stomach with it in order that you might speak the words to the House of Yisro’el that I shall give to you…”
So I took the Scroll which he handed me, and opened my mouth, & Ate it up : and lo, it tasted as Sweet as Honey on my Tongue.

Then he said, Son of Man, Speak only to the house of Yisro’el, but go not among any Nation of foreign Tongue who would not understand your words- and by speaking in the tongue of the House of Yisro’el they might believe that I YHWH have sent you to them – but if not (for they are stiff-necked and obstinate) I will cause you to become as hardened as they are…then then the spirit lifted me up & I went away in ‘Bitterness’ of my soul…

Rev 10: 1-11

And I looked & behold, I saw: Another Mighty Watcher coming down from Heaven...
And behold, he was holding a little Scroll, which lay unrolled in his Right hand…

Then the Voice that I had heard from Heaven spoke to me again, saying
"Go, take the scroll unrolled in the Right hand the Watcher

So I went to the Angel and asked him to give me the Scroll & he spoke to me, saying,
“Take the Scroll & eat it up – and though it will later turn bitter in your Stomach,
in your Mouth it will be as sweet as Honey."

So I took the little scroll from the angel's hand and ate it up.
And lo, it tasted to me as sweet as honey in my mouth,
but after I had eaten it, it turned bitter in my stomach…


From the above example, it sure looks like downright plagiarism to me - we can see that (very obviously, in this particular case) that the Author(s) of the ‘Book of Revelation’ was/were ‘ripping off’ the entire Scroll Eating Episode from the Book of the Prophet Hezekiel in chapter 3 when he set pen to paper –

So how could a case be made at all that the much of the material contents of the so-called ‘Book of Revelation’ could be construed as anything like a ‘new vision’ - insomuch as so much older (and to Messianic Jews of the first century, assuredly very familiar !) material was re-hashed (i.e. stolen in whole cloth) from so many older Hebrew and (in the case of parts of the Book of Daniel, Aramaic) prophetic scraps?

What exactly was the writer up to by stealing so much, especially in those sections that were plagiarised word for word (even more exactly so by comparing the Targums and other pre-Javnia versions) ??

Originally posted by bogomil

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by AQuestion

 

I'll believe you are a little god when you call an entire universe into existence with a single spoken sentence.

In a post above you take the liberty of calling something 'new-age garbage' (it's not that I generally disagree with you on that point. New-age'ism is filled with speculations and postulates).

But then presenting your own 'garbage' in the form of a postulate of anyone bringing a universe into existence with a single sentence reduces your credibility to 'garbage' level also. Unless you ofcourse mean, that NO 'god' has done this at all.

Your doctrinal 'garbage' is just as unvalidated as any gnostic or semi-gnostic positions (except in the case of introducing the doctrine of 'original sin' as a central point in many of the christianities. Gnosticism definitely scores a point on rationality by rejecting 'original sin').

Alright, I've seen the light, we are all gods.

Worship me now please.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Quote: ["Alright, I've seen the light, we are all gods.

Worship me now please."]


I do not operate myself with the concept 'god' as a proved, evidenced or demonstrated entity. And I'm rather certain, that I haven't written anything, which can be can be taken as a pro-deity argument.

Whereas the abstract concept 'god' per se, preferably including which of the alleged 'gods' there is referred to (e.g. Zeus, 'the god of the bible', Thor, an exoteric Brahma, .......) won't trigger my grumpiness.

So sorry, I can't worship you (neither do I believe, that you have a need for it. I appreciate your increasing humour in a form available to both of us.)

reply to post by bogomil


Either we are gods or we are not. If we are gods then we should be able to create universes at a whim and we deserve worship. If we are not yet think we are that's the same lie satan told Eve.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by bogomil

 

Either we are gods or we are not. If we are gods then we should be able to create universes at a whim and we deserve worship. If we are not yet think we are that's the same lie satan told Eve.

The Perry Mason style of argumentation: "Yes or no", has no place in logic reasoning. The claim of there only being two optional answers is just that...a claim.

"Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?"

In the present case, there may be shades of grey, depending on how 'gods' are defined. According to the observer-created model, it's more a question of being co-creators rather than having the attributes usually associated with religionist 'gods'.

From some perspectives the claim: "Satan told Eve a lie" is a lie in itself.

From other perspectives going further in that direction, it's a lie to claim that satan and Eve existed at all.

reply to post by Sigismundus

Remember that the purpose was to encourage the faithful to resist staunchly the demands of emperor worship.warning that the final showdown between god and satan is imminent.satan will increase his persecution of beleavers,but they must stand fast,even to death.they are sealed against any spiritual harm and will soon be vindicated when christ returns,when the wicked are forever destroyed,and when gods people enter an eternity of gloy and blessedness. Real dream? What difference does it make?