The Jehovah Witnesses, Conspiracy or Religion

As with all things Jade, you get your good with some whackaloons thrown in. Sorry you got one of those, I know the type. Thanks for your dissersion Amadeus, your knowledge is impressive. Even if it's not verifiable.

I have been trying to prove this but I cant find enough info about it...I know it is going on because I have seen it for years for I work closely with a JW elder. He and his friends make practice of this:

Many mexicans and South Americans are getting "sponsored" by american JWs. They come here and work for them. If they can prove they have a job waiting for them here it is easier to "get into" the country. They must convert to a witness.

So they get their American JW sponsor, and the American JW gets a faithful JW slave.--Usually a maid/butler type situation. These slaves are submissive "lambs" and are used for slave labor by long time JWs.
They are locked into a contract situation because it can take years to gain their citizenship thru sponsorship.

The immigrant feels they owe alot to their sponsor and and made to work for nothing

I would like to find statistics on how many "work sponsored" mexican JW immigrants there are here in the states because everyone my boss knows is doing this. I listen to conversations he has with his friends...He treats me like I am nothing because I am a "worldly person". He fakes respect for me.

Ive also overheard conversations like" dont spoil her"..."dont even pay her minimum wage because she is a live in." OR
"Hes lucky to even be here and make him realize it"

or, my favorite, "to trust is fine, to control is better".

These elders think they are kings of some sort (the few I know). Well Im not a JW and they wont get my adoration.

When he told me he gives illigal aliens jobs also, I frowned. So he says, "I dont believe in borders or even seperate countries."
So I said, "Youd rather live in a place of lawlessness, full of thieves pirates and terrorists then?
He is trying to tell me it is about giving peole a chance when it is really about living like a king with slaves all around him.





[edit on 12-8-2004 by xxKrisxx]

Originally posted by marg6043


I remember the Jehovah Witnesses back home and I can tell you they are very persistent, my mother used to go so upset when they will come early in the morning knocking on the doors.

Well I have no problem with that, simply because i DON'T answer my door in the early morning. They must have gotten to know this in one place I lived for a while, and they'd come [prob when they'd finished their rounds, or maybe cos they'd heard my imprecations the first time!] - but anyway, they were no problem when I answered the door later.

I used to tell them, firmly & politely, that I had my own faith & my own beliefs etc, and that there was nothing to talk about. They'd reply with equal politeness, then I'd close the door.

In another place I lived at, the JW's did catch me early. I'd hosted a Hallowe'en party the night before, & it was a ripper, we were still partying on when the knock at the door came. I answered, & there they were. So I went into my usual spiel about having my own faith etc - & they fairly ran away without a word.

It may have been something to do with the fact that I was fully garbed as a witch, flappiong cloak, pointy hat & all!

Originally posted by Amadeus
I play with their heads. They are the ones who walk away from me. I WANT THEM TO STAY AND DEBATE THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM ALL DAY AND NIGHT IF POSSIBLE, but they usually give up after a measley 45 mins or so.

Hi Amadeus

Same here, I love debating with JW and Mormons all the time. Its particularly sad in the case of the Mormons, they are usually 18 or 19 year olds who are basically compelled to do what they do. Their knowledge is usually horrid.

They seem to think that just because their religions have a history that goes back more than 100 years that it wasn't still based on the ramblings of a lunatic. That goes for both. Truly sad...

Hey there Intrepid:

Actually virtually everything I post on these threads is quite historically and scientifically "verifiable" (to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the perception of the readers: don't forget though that there are still more than 10,000 registered members of the Flat Earth Society worldwde still around, and no amount of physical "evidence" or proofs will ever change their minds about what they believe...and this is the same with fundamentalist Christians, orthodox Jews and a large portioin of the Muslim Community, i.e. the US v. THEM middle eastern clan-religions...), that is, of course, if anyone on these threads bothers to take the time to do a little digging for himself, which I welcome

The scientific-textual "evidence" that I use (or could use if I chose to include it at times) to support my statements is taken mainly from hardened theories like the Source Documentary Hypothesis of Graf-Wellhausen---which has certainly survived the test of time, albeit with some minor revisions (that is, after more than 130 years of scholarly examination and some rather severe re-examination under stringent scientific-literary conditions, including ye-olde computer analyses) as well as modern DSS studies and textual and archaelogical/carbon dating research since 1950.

But hopefully you will have noticed that I do not always state my sources or back every word up as I go along (if you want the backup on any single point, just ask and I will give)---and I do this deliberately to get the "conversation going" (i.e. a debate) by trying to get someone remotely knowledgeable about the subject out into the open---and so that the many on the sidelines on these threads (who tend to be shall we say a little on the LAZY side, it seems...) will take the time to bother to do some of their OWN research for a change and verify/ check out my "facts", which they will find to be quite mainstream and factual when all is said and done for modern theological European scholarship---in fact nothing I've said so far flies in the face of anything being currenty taught at Harvard (or any of the Ivy leagues in the US for that matter).

So if there is something that is SPECIFICALLY not "verifiable" to you, speak up son, and we'll open up this can of worms as wide as we can get it...

I think many JWs are forced into islolation, blindness, robotic memerization of dos and dont. I think many of them are sleepwalking--Until ofcourse confronted with a situation where apropriate for a bible quote--Then, with lightning speed, the seasoned JW will act.

I believe that the general "flock" believes in their quest--Their need to "spread the truth" is genuine. They , truely fear for your soul.

But those who have more power like the elders, to the district overseers to world headquarters in NY, have another agenda. The more people they have beneath them the more powerful they become.

The Watchtower society and publication.--Who dictates the rules? Oh and sooooo many of them. Where does the divine word come from? From Jehovah directly to Brooklyn? Cool.

And you becoming a "faithful and discreet slave" is pretty convenient to anyone who is in the position of power. Especially when you want to take advantage of someone. Im not saying many organized religions dont do the same, but the JWs are hands down, the best at it.--Isolation is a requirement...no worldy socializing.--If my church (I have no affiliation) told me I could have no other association, I would tell them to get lost, what are they afraid of?

Cant do this or that? Oh, because these rituals and practices have pagan roots. I know I know!
fine.

But a wedding or anniversary, look out its a huge party. I dont do weddings or anniversaries. JWs I know think Im crazy because thats all they do. That to me is ritualistic behavior. I celebrate something if I want to celebrate it. period. I forget my anniversary, but not my dogs birthday....send me to hell! I m not worried about offending a god by saying happy birthday or bless you after someone sneezes. Sometimes I do sometimes I dont.

Like using an american flag stamp: I can see not buying american flag stamps if it could possibly be against your religion( that sounds ridiculous, but I know the reason behind it so dont pick this out to quote and scold me please), but if thats all you had you have to feel to guilty to use it?

sex with your spouse

if you like kinky sex, then witnessing is not for you my friend..It is a noNO.
dont be sexual...at all, because you WILL be counciled on it and be made to answer very unusual questions.


spousal abuse

No it isnt right, but maybe you did something to bring it on, hmmm ladies?Its not like he broke your arm, certainly not grounds for divorce.

Do you still need 2 witnesses to prosecute sexual abuse, or is it now understood that crimes like this usually dont occur in front of anyone?

The whole disfelowshipping and shunning thing is quite the tool. The Governing Body is to be feared and reveered.

Too trust is good but to control is better...I love that one






And lastly, some wonderful apostate literature
www.paulblizard.com...

www.jehovahs-witness.com...
(great discussion board) ex-jw but all is welcome

www.watchtowerinformationservice.org...

Great Reading there xxKrisxx, Weller and intrepid..

and Really great reading Amadeus, Thank you.

i've only had one argument with JW's....about Evolution....their not Physicists are they?.......learnt more in 1 year 8 science class than i did from these bozo's....so they brought me a book....which was also a lot of crap

listen and learn Yaweh and Johovah are just different names for the Most High Lord God who is Lord of Lords and King of Kings he is the One True Lord God of the Trinity (in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit

now that thats cleared up i will tell you my thoughts and what i have found out now some of you might not know who the Freemasons are but they set up Johovahs Witnesses to pull people away from the one true church founded by Lord Jesus Christ the masons have hated the catholics for centurys and there has been a long fued between us the Catholics and the draconians/masons it is them who invented the pentagram and the all seeing eye which is seen on the American dollar bill it is them who set up the Illuminatie and the skull and bones it is also them who pull the strings behind the new world order and the bush family as well as the rockefellas now back to the Jehovas witnesses the masons set them up to gain members as you can not join the masons unless you belive in "god" ar but which one you might ask well its the one the masons belive in which is lucifer budda and all gods as they call it they worship in every temple and bow before every alter EVEN that of SATAN
i think i said enough! if you want to know more about well um stuff you can mail me at

[email protected]

oh and i am Catholic

I like having the JW's sit on my front porch. They know that they are there for educational purposed only, so that I am no longer ignorant about their beliefs. I told them this and they accepted, although I told them this on their 3rd visit and they have been to my house a total of 3 times...crap, I guess they aren't coming back. Anyways, I was enjoying having them over, because the guy was beginning to teach me how to read Hebrew. I guess I'm back to good ol' English again...

jehovas are insane. i have a friend who is jehovas witness. and alot of it doesnt make sense. and i have laid hands on a jw's bible. its just a replica of the normal one except instead of calling him god, jesus, or christ they call him jehova. there are different books as well. they didnt seem to be at all guided in the right light during the time we spoke either.

jehova could be another name misinterpreted by someone who ''claimed'' to have talked to him.

just like allah means ''i am all.'' the last words christ mumbled before he gave up the ghost.

just an expression. not his name.

reply to post by Amadeus


I still have a lot of fun playing with their heads by asking the simple questions a 10 year old Sunday School pupil might ask: If "Jeeezzzuzz" was sinless, then why was he baptised for the Remission of Sins by John the Baptist? or If "Jeeezuzz" was baptised by John, doesn't that make John automatically Greater than Jeeezuzz?

or, If John the Baptist knew "Jeeezuzz" was the Messiah when he baptised him ("behold the Lamb of God that taketh away the Sins of the World!") , then why after his arrest by Herod Anitpas did he send his own disciples to "jeezuzz" and ask, "Are you the One to Come, or Shall we Look for Another?"

or "If John claimed that one was coming who would baptise with the Holy Spirit, then why did John's disciples say they "never even heard there was a Holy Spirit?" etc. etc. (it helps to know that "spirit" and "wind" are the same word in Hebrew, "ruach", and that the image was that of the threshing floor with "wiind" and "fire" being the more accurate translation, but I digress...)

================================================

These are Interesting questions Amadeus. Although I`m not sure that you really “ama a Deus”. Sorry if we did not met before, so I could answer your questions. Here is what we can do: you answer my question and I answer yours, as soon as I can!

If God said you shall not kill, why He send Israel to a land where there were nations already living in? Then He told Israel to kill them all and then to take their land. Why? Wouldn’t it be less bloody to build a ship or an Arc and send them all to the New World, to the Americas?

[email protected]

As a kid I was forced to attend the JW metings. I allways wondered how the elders could afford to be full time pioners and not work, but drove two brand new fancy cars. I also wondered if all the so called contributions were paying the elders living expences.My aunt was a full time pioner for years, then all of a sudden it seemedthat she lost intrest in the relegion. I also have seen one of the elders get sh@# faced several times after he preached that alcohol was bad. In my experience with this religion I belive them to be the most 2 faced people on the planet(do as I say,Not as I do.) I have relitives that are still in the church,but I do not talk to them because of this and various other reasons. I can try to anwser any questions you may have.

Originally posted by Cerebus0
As a kid I was forced to attend the JW metings. I allways wondered how the elders could afford to be full time pioners and not work, but drove two brand new fancy cars. I also wondered if all the so called contributions were paying the elders living expences.My aunt was a full time pioner for years, then all of a sudden it seemedthat she lost intrest in the relegion. I also have seen one of the elders get sh@# faced several times after he preached that alcohol was bad. In my experience with this religion I belive them to be the most 2 faced people on the planet(do as I say,Not as I do.) I have relitives that are still in the church,but I do not talk to them because of this and various other reasons. I can try to anwser any questions you may have.

Hey me too, my dad who was not a JW told me as a punishment I had to go for 7 days of meetings, what a bummer.

While I was at the meeting, I asked my mom as to why the man was questioning the bible, real loud!!. everyone turned and stared at me like 'shut up boy. I got this vary creepy feeling after that

Never went back since.

reply to post by Amadeus


hi Amadeus.
i would just like to say i am delighted that i never got you on the door to door work!!Not that i would living in England.

you are correct very few Jehovah's witnesses read or understand Paleo Hebrew or Aramaic,but then only a very small percentage of people do .
we believe that are members of the teaching committee can and do read the language that the bible was written in...

not being facetious but do you actually have any credentialls or are you self taught ?Must admit you seem to know what you are talking about .

reply to post by topsecretombomb


there arent different books but you are right about it basically being a replica except with small differences in word choice and the word jehova

I started working on these replies many days ago. Due to illness, I cannot spend but a few minutes at a time at the computer, and with so many things to do, it has taken me some time to reply to Weller's comments.

Originally posted by Weller
I have read Jehovah's Witness literature extensively and have found few religions that are more secretive or scary. They keep a lot of their information and beliefs secret for a reason...its total rubbish. I'm no fan of organized religion but don't have a problem with most aside from JW and a few others. I mean, only 144,000 people are going to get into heaven? With an estimated 8 or 9 million of them running around on the planet, do they all feel lucky or something?

I am not with the JWs, and I certainly don't agree with the idea of a humanly-appointed "governing body" that people are supposed to put their faith in. However, I would not object to the idea that only 144,000 would go to heaven. Contrary to what many say, the Bible does not say that if you believe in Jesus, that you will go to heaven; Jesus' death purchased what Adam lost, which is life on earth, not in heaven. Thus, any who go to heaven would have receive a reward beyond justification. Indeed, Paul seems to be making that argument several times, that there are two levels of Christians, one that is obtained through faith for justification, and another that is attained through a certain perfection of faith, love and hope that is accomplished after having been justified. All the sons of God have a heritage of God, but joint-heirship with Christ requires more. (Romans 8:17) The seed of the new creature -- the son of God -- first, through faith in Christ for justification -- bears the image of the earthly man, as Adam was before he sinned, but to attain joint-heirship so as to be assigned a heavenly body, the seed (of the new creature) must also bear the image of the one who is now in heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:35-49) Paul wrote that he, although he had been justified, had not yet obtained the perfection necessary to obtain the prize being offered. (Philippians 3:12-14) And thus there are millions of Christians who are represented in the symbolic twelve tribes of Israel as depicted in Revelation 7 who are justified through faith, but there is a much smaller number (whether 144,000 is thought to be literal or not) who are sealed out those twelve tribes so as to stand with Jesus as joint-heirs on Mt. Zion. -- Revelation 14:1.

In other words, there can be millions of Christians called who have been justified to life as Adam had it, on the earthly plane, all of whom are called for the purpose of attaining the mark of perfection that would have them obtain the prize of joint-heirship. Evidently, most of these die before attaining the that mark, and thus fail to obtain that prize, and yet who are still Christians justified to life on the earthly plane. Thus, there resurrection will be in accordance to earthly body assigned through justification, not the heavenly body that is attained when the mark is reached. Please note that this is quite different, however, from what the JWs preach.

I have written more information on this at:
The 144,000 and the Twelve Tribes
prophecy.reslight.net...
and also the "Related Studies" links given toward the bottom of the post.

Originally posted by Weller
Any religion that actively tells its members not to associate with others or discuss their true beliefs all while trying to get more people to join it is a cult in my book, plain and simple. Here are some facts about their belief structure and history:

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (the organization run by the Governing Body of the Jehovah's Witnesses) claims that it is the sole channel of information between God and humanity.

They base this claim on a complicated, Bible-based chronology devised by the Adventist N.H. Barbour in 1875. The founder of Jehovah's Witnesses, Charles Taze Russell,

The truth is that Russell was never associated with the organization called "Jehovah's Witnesses", nor did he claim the JW organization to be the "sole channel of information between God and man." That organization did not exist in the days of Russell. Russell preached against such sectarianism and authoritarianism. Russell also preached agains such a message as the JWs preach concerning Armageddon (the good news of bad tidings that is for most of the people now living that they and there children, babies, etc., will be eternally destroyed in Armageddon). Thus, the central of message of glad tidings for all people that Russell preached is almost the opposite of the bad tidings of eternal woe that the JWs preach.

Russell certainly never viewed the Bible Students movement to have exclusive rights to service of God, etc. While Russell condemned denominationalism and sectarianism, Russell's view of the true church is that its members exist amongst all of the denominations of Christendom. In 1915, he published in The Bible Students Monthly, the following:

I hold, and few, if any, will dispute it, that the one catholic or general Church of Christ is that mentioned in the Bible -- "the Church of the Firstborns, written in Heaven." If this be admitted, my next proposition is that the Lord in Heaven records as members of His true Church all the saintly - whether Roman Catholics, Anglican Catholics, Greek Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, or Presbyterians, etc. -- and none others.

Have we not here the one Church, catholic, universal, the only Church which the Bible recognizes? In the past we have been too narrow and have supposed that God was as narrow as ourselves. It was on this account that Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists persecuted and were persecuted, each thinking itself the true Church. Are we not all getting broader conceptions of our God and of His Church? Do we not see that we were mistaken in calling the outward organization the Church of Christ instead of remembering that the Lord alone writes the names of the Church, that He alone reads the hearts, that He alone is the Judge, and that He alone has the right to blot out the names of reprobates?

St. Paul wrote against sectarianism, already manifest in his day-some saying :"I am of Paul"; others, "I am of Peter"; etc. The Apostle asks, "Is Christ divided:" (1 Corinthians 1:10-13) He explains that these sectarian names signified a spirit of division that failed to recognize the true Head of the Church, His true representatives and His true members. The entire foundation of divided Christianity would disappear and the true Church of Christ be speedily manifest, if true catholicity were acknowledged.

Since Russell died, his basic view presented above has gained a lot of ground amongst many protestant ministers, although these same ministers most often do not know that Russell held such a view.

Originally posted by Weller
obtained many of his ideas from Adventists and others who speculated in Bible prophecy. In 1884, Russell founded the Watchtower Society, which became the legal corporation used by the International Bible Students, the early name for Jehovah's Witnesses.

The wording can be very misleading, since the Bible Students movement, as a whole, represented by the majority, did not become "Jehovah's Witnesses." By 1928, the greater majority -- over 75% -- remained "Bible Students" and had rejected Rutherford's new organization and his new "gospel" associated with that new organization. The phrase "International Bible Students" was used in two different ways. One - the legal entity in England carried the name "International Bible Students Association". That legal entity, being under the corporate control of the legal entity in Brooklyn, remained under control of that legal entity, and thus Rutherford had control of that legal entity in England. The second way that the term was used was to describe the Bible Students movement as a whole. In the latter meaning, however, the Bible Students -- as a whole -- did not become Jehovah's Witnesses, they remained Bible Students.

Originally posted by Weller
The chronology stated that Jesus had invisibly returned to earth in 1874 to set up his kingdom, and that in 1914, at the end of the "Gentile Times", Jesus would come to judge the earth and annihilate the wicked.

The statement here is highly misleading. It would seem to be saying that Russell taught that Jesus would "annihilate the wicked" in 1914. Russell never taught such an idea. As expressed in the Supplement to the first issue of the Watch Tower, he rejected similar ideas then being taught by many of the Second Adventists. Indeed, he taught almost the very opposite. From 1904 to 1914, he believe that the time of trouble (Armageddon) was to begin in 1914 and end sometime after 1914, and that once Satan is abyssed, those now called "wicked" -- the unbelievers -- would be blessed with englightenment so that they could be receive eternal life. Thus, Russell did not believe, and even preached against, the kind of Armageddon that is being preached by the JWs. He definitely was not expecting the annihilation of all the wicked in 1914. He was expecting that after being enlightened during the world's judgment day (the 1,000 years of Christ's reign), that those then refuse to clean their hearts would eventually be annihilated, but he did not expect this in 1914. His expectation of the final annihilation of the wicked was after the 1,000 years, at the end of the little season, or short period of time, spoken of in Revelation 20:3 (see also Revelation 20:7-9. Russell view was that Armageddon was a period of time in which the nations (unsanctified heathen) would be chastised so as to make them ready for the blessings that were follow after Satan is abyssed. He certainly was not expecting their annihilation in 1914.

See my collection of quotes from Russell (from 1904 to 1916) regarding the time of trouble:
ctr.reslight.net...

Originally posted by WellerWhen nothing supernatural happened in 1914, the Watchtower Society started transferring all of the doctrines about 1874 to 1914.

Russell did not consider that "nothing supernatural happened in 1914", and never transferred his conclusions concerning 1874 to 1914. Rutherford, in creating his new organization, however, desired to use the time prophecies to support his new "Jehovah's visible organization" dogma, and thus he began to transfer a lot of the time prophecies to other dates that he presented as major events of "Jehovah's organization". This also led him to unwittingly attribute Satan with having knowledge of the Bible before the Bible was written when he claimed that Satan had the Great Pyramid constructed as a means of deception. This would also seem to be in contradiction to his claim of Jehovah's approval of his alleged "organization" in 1918 for it would have meant that the alleged "organization" in 1918 was being deceived by Satan.

Russell, however believed that with the "Great War" that started in 1914 showed that Armageddon had begun; he believed that his expectation concerning the time of trouble had proven to be true; he held to that belief until he died in 1916. I believe that we have indeed been in the time of trouble ever since 1914, and that we may still be in that time of trouble for some years into the future. Eventually, however, the time of trouble will be over when Satan is abyssed, and the nations will have learned the lessons of the present time of evil.

Originally posted by WellerThey explained that Christ's kingdom had been set up invisibly in 1914, and that although secular governments were still in place, their rule was no longer valid.

This was what Russell basically taught long before 1914; this was not a new idea after 1914. From 1904 to 1914, Russell no longer taught that the Gentile Kingdoms would all be ended in 1914, but rather that Gentile governments would exist for some time after 1914. Between 1904 and 1916, Russell presented many dates (1915, 1918, 1920, and a few other dates) as suggested by various Bible Students for the end of the time of trouble some time after 1914, but overall, he basically held that no scripture actually tells us how long the time of trouble was to last after 1914.

Originally posted by WellerBased on the Society's writings, Jehovah's Witnesses looked forward to momentous events in the year 1918.

Russell -- before he died -- had presented some conclusions that some of the Bible Students had reached concerning 1918; after his death Rutherford and his associates presented that date as doctrine, something Russell never did. Russell stated that his conclusions and expectations that resulted from study of chronology and time prophecy were not "doctrine", and he did not hinder others of the Bible Students from having opposing views, and he sometimes even presented those views in the pages of the Watch Tower. (For instance, some had rejected Russell's conclusion that Jerusalem had been destroyed in 607/606 BC; some believed that the Gentile Times were to end in 1915, not 1914; some believed the Gentile Times were end sometime in 1930s, etc., and there were several viewpoints -- before 1914 -- concerning how long the time of trouble was to last after 1914.)