I would love to see proof of a ghost. We need science. Not Shamans.

Originally posted by Butterbone

Originally posted by siren8
You want to keep spirituality out of the search for the spirit realm?

You shouldn't drag your kids into it. Just because you can't percieve the spiritual does not mean your kids won't be able to. The unfortunate side effect of that will be a parent goading them on into something potentially dangerous.

You won't be able to undo that damage.

My sons asked me to take them ghost hunting. I saw it as a learning opportunity. And I only use the word "spirit" because it is a commonly used term for ghosts.
Questioning my childrens safety under my supervision is.... well it's trolling and insulting.
I put my children in no danger. We even had permission to walk through the graveyard at night. The church thought it was cute.
If you give someone the chance to answer their own questions, they often come up with the right answers for themselves.
And by that, I mean, the right answer For Their Own Self. Not the "right answer" you wanted them to get.
Based on that we can avoid the semantic "right answer" quibble.

Thanks for attempting to side track this discussion.

Your OP was an interesting read ... I could relate to your dilemma because although I have studied Natural Earth Sciences at degree level and love science and archaeology with equal passion ... plus the fact that I am officially a registered stress consultant after separate studies in the field of psychology ... I actually work as a Pastlife Regression Therapist ... and run a private Paranormal Investigation team.

So I am quite the hybrid and as a hybrid with a lifetimes experience with what we call the Paranormal ... I have to say that your approach concerning the involvement of children of that age is naive to say the least ... and as a person of science I am shocked that you didn't consider doing more research on the subject before exposing your children to the potential dangers of a world that you clearly have no knowledge of and seem to consider the whole thing as a 'game'.

How do I know that you hadn't researched the subject thoroughly before exposing your children to potential unseen danger ?

Well, it might be something to do with the part of your OP where you said that you'd also tried to call a 'witch' !!!

Can I ask a quick question ?

You are aware that 'Witches' are not just paranormal entities aren't you ???

Yes, there may be some spirits/ghosts who may well have been Witches during their lifetime ... just like there are spirits/ghosts of soldiers / shopkeeps / mothers / children / murderers / priests ... the list goes on ...

But please let me be the first to break the shocking news ... Witches are not soley paranormal entities ... they are very REAL ... and not just in fairytales either.

And I can speak with 100% confidence on this fact because I have been a practicing 'Solitary Witch' for over 20yrs ... it is not a New-Age fad ... I follow the traditional path ... and it is my faith ... my life ... and I find 'your' implication that 'we' are figments of the imagination who float spectrally around graveyards scaring children at Halloween an insult (although there was this one time ... )

I don't think siren8 was trying to sidetrack the discussion or insult your parenting skills but taking offence at siren8's comments is a typical 'momma/daddy bear' reflex when your parenting seems to be questioned

However, I have to agree and say ... until you have researched the subject fully you would be wise not to involve your children in such pursuits ... the Paranormal world and it's residents are not always pleasant and probably best to not risk your childrens welfare in the first place so you don't have to regret it later.

Because of my science background I DO research all possible parts of a case before slapping on the Paranormal label ... and with that in mind I can assure you that whilst most REAL hauntings are harmless enough (even quite sad on occasion) ... there are other entities that would ruin you and all you hold dear. I dealt with a case some not too long ago where such a thing occurred and I and my team may be a lot wiser than we were prior to the case ... but we are still (months later) trying to fully recover 100% because it took so much out of us. (you can read the threads I made about this case here on ATS if your'e interested);

>>>Demon Identification Help Required>The Messenger -Dirken Ridge - Update of The 'Demon Identificatio' (Red Eyes) Case

reply to post by woodwytch


See, I have issues with stuff like this that makes me yell and scream FAKE at the top of my lungs:

This is from one of those other threads:

>Tuesday 15th June 2010<

MOTHER 1, was woken-up in the early hours to feel 'someone' pushing her down into the bed by her shoulders ... after she tried to struggle and get up from the bed she said it felt like her entire body was pinned to the bed ... she could literally feel the weight of someone on top of her ... pinning her down. She couldn't move ... she couldn't scream ... she was terrified !

What is described here is sleep paralysis, including the dark figure she saw. So why in GODS name would you mess their minds up even further by saying it is a demon of kinds? It's not the right thing to do for crying out loud, that's why you are met with hostility just like the other poster - you are SCARING very SIMPLE people. Your degrees won't save you from scrutinizing.

S&F. Same boat. Skeptical believer. Been into this stuff all of my life, have had my own experiences, and although I respect the opinions and beliefs of the shamans, spiritual gurus, psychics, preachers..etc I take everything they say about 'ghosts', 'God, 'spirits'...etc. with a grain of salt., since nearly all of them have conflicting beliefs and preach said beliefs as facts most of the time.

I've said it many times... I feel we are spinning our wheels with current ghost hunting techniques. EVPs are laughable for the most part and I feel like 95%+ is nothing more than audio pareidolia. Spiritual photography is even worse, usually attributed to camera anomolies and other explainable phenomena. Bring in more than one psychic or sensitive and you usually get vastly different stories/feelings.

In fact, I don't trust any true believers perceptions about ghosts when they are ghost hunting. They go into these places with their minds made up already and their brains ready and primed to validate their personal beliefs. Did you see the show where they had a group of believers and a group of non-believers explore a' haunted' location. The reactions were vastly different, with the believers having all sorts of 'feelings', and the non-believers experiencing nothing. I can't trust 'evidence' presented by believers, and that goes for the 'shadow' they saw move out of the corner of their eye, or the sound they think they heard. You feel a presense, you say? With all due respect, I'll pass on that 'evidence', thanks.

Even if I were to capture a Class A EVP myself (which I never have), I would be skeptical as to what was producing the phenomena, rather than the old stupid-human trick of automatically assuming it's a 'ghost', 'spirit', or a 'demon'. -Noone- knows what it really is.

The classic ideas of a 'ghost' and the phenomena associated with it, in so many different ways, just doesn't make sense. We don't yet have the tools in our toolbox to get any real, solid, concrete ideas about paranormal phenomena.

I agree with you completely, but why wouldn't you go on ghost hunts? This is an interest of yours, and what the paranormal research field needs are the scientific minded. Why wait for someone to show you proof when you can go out and look for it?

Originally posted by woodwytch

Originally posted by Butterbone

Originally posted by siren8
You want to keep spirituality out of the search for the spirit realm?

You shouldn't drag your kids into it. Just because you can't percieve the spiritual does not mean your kids won't be able to. The unfortunate side effect of that will be a parent goading them on into something potentially dangerous.

You won't be able to undo that damage.

My sons asked me to take them ghost hunting. I saw it as a learning opportunity. And I only use the word "spirit" because it is a commonly used term for ghosts.
Questioning my childrens safety under my supervision is.... well it's trolling and insulting.
I put my children in no danger. We even had permission to walk through the graveyard at night. The church thought it was cute.
If you give someone the chance to answer their own questions, they often come up with the right answers for themselves.
And by that, I mean, the right answer For Their Own Self. Not the "right answer" you wanted them to get.
Based on that we can avoid the semantic "right answer" quibble.

Thanks for attempting to side track this discussion.

Your OP was an interesting read ... I could relate to your dilemma because although I have studied Natural Earth Sciences at degree level and love science and archaeology with equal passion ... plus the fact that I am officially a registered stress consultant after separate studies in the field of psychology ... I actually work as a Pastlife Regression Therapist ... and run a private Paranormal Investigation team.

So I am quite the hybrid and as a hybrid with a lifetimes experience with what we call the Paranormal ... I have to say that your approach concerning the involvement of children of that age is naive to say the least ... and as a person of science I am shocked that you didn't consider doing more research on the subject before exposing your children to the potential dangers of a world that you clearly have no knowledge of and seem to consider the whole thing as a 'game'.

How do I know that you hadn't researched the subject thoroughly before exposing your children to potential unseen danger ?

Well, it might be something to do with the part of your OP where you said that you'd also tried to call a 'witch' !!!

Can I ask a quick question ?

You are aware that 'Witches' are not just paranormal entities aren't you ???

Yes, there may be some spirits/ghosts who may well have been Witches during their lifetime ... just like there are spirits/ghosts of soldiers / shopkeeps / mothers / children / murderers / priests ... the list goes on ...

But please let me be the first to break the shocking news ... Witches are not soley paranormal entities ... they are very REAL ... and not just in fairytales either.

And I can speak with 100% confidence on this fact because I have been a practicing 'Solitary Witch' for over 20yrs ... it is not a New-Age fad ... I follow the traditional path ... and it is my faith ... my life ... and I find 'your' implication that 'we' are figments of the imagination who float spectrally around graveyards scaring children at Halloween an insult (although there was this one time ...

)

I don't think siren8 was trying to sidetrack the discussion or insult your parenting skills but taking offence at siren8's comments is a typical 'momma/daddy bear' reflex when your parenting seems to be questioned

However, I have to agree and say ... until you have researched the subject fully you would be wise not to involve your children in such pursuits ... the Paranormal world and it's residents are not always pleasant and probably best to not risk your childrens welfare in the first place so you don't have to regret it later.

Because of my science background I DO research all possible parts of a case before slapping on the Paranormal label ... and with that in mind I can assure you that whilst most REAL hauntings are harmless enough (even quite sad on occasion) ... there are other entities that would ruin you and all you hold dear. I dealt with a case some not too long ago where such a thing occurred and I and my team may be a lot wiser than we were prior to the case ... but we are still (months later) trying to fully recover 100% because it took so much out of us. (you can read the threads I made about this case here on ATS if your'e interested);

>>>Demon Identification Help Required>The Messenger -Dirken Ridge - Update of The 'Demon Identificatio' (Red Eyes) Case

Originally posted by AnimusInvictus
reply to post by Butterbone

 

Pressure sensors?
Like...
Those fancy pads that measure pressure.

Sorry, my technical terminology isn't the bestest, I'm an uber layman.
Also, how would we test regarding seeing things passing through walls, hearing footsteps, objects being moved without actual physical contact?
I know I have other ideas, they're just clogged up in my mind.

I understand how pressure sensors work. I guess if they are going to be applied to the floor then that is just one more potential point of correlating data so sure.
Lets add pressure pads to our "theoretical" measurement package.

As far as the passing through walls and footsteps issues, lets put those in the category of "specific ghost" related description. And we want to avoid that. It is going to cloud the decision making process.

Objects being moved around by unseen forces would fall easily into the category of sensors we already have. There would still be video in the room. A package of Standard, Low light, Infrared, and Thermal imaging camera should be in a bundle together with a 360 panoramic lens so they capture the entire volume simultaneously.

Good call AnimusInvictus. I'm making a list locally of all the things that are going into this theoretical instrument package, so when I do the illustration, I can add a key that labels all of the sensors and the reasoning behind them.

OK I have made some renderings of the lay out that has been discussed in this thread.

I'm not gonna lie, it's not pretty. There is very little ghost busters in this set up and alot more erector set.

There is an image with a KEY beause I didn't want to attempt to accurately depict some of the sensors. So they are just colored cubes representing a specific type of sensor.

No person could navigate this room easily, and yes, I already know setting up this one room would probably cost 2 million dollars. BUT, it's really good coverage.

Wires were not added to the rendering, so just try to imagine 500 pounds of black running all around this room and up and down the posts and cables.

So here are the images. This is not a photobomb. I rendered these models to display the idea we've been discussing in this thread for volume measurement of multiple parameters.
The Laser Array.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/75b5900fd452.jpg[/atsimg]

Room Pullot.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0cb8bb4bafbb.jpg[/atsimg]

Floor Pressure Plates.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6295e08a6dfa.jpg[/atsimg]

Laser Receptors.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/94bb6b060b6f.jpg[/atsimg]

Angled view.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a101556dd925.jpg[/atsimg]

Side view.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/39430ef0c254.jpg[/atsimg]

Top Down view.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/b27e2006f809.jpg[/atsimg]


The 4 pack sensor array that gets suspended between the lasers.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/10b6d682ecd0.jpg[/atsimg]

It's pretty massive I know.
I still think there are other things we can measure and I haven't even added the multiple types of cameras to the render set up. I'm not sure you can have 4 cameras optiflexing the same lense. If there are any photographers reading this, can you chime in. I want 4 different video cameras, to use the same 360 dome lens. Is that possible???

Well, throw in some more ideas if you can think of other things to measure. MRI can't work, and Xrays probably can't work because they would interfere with everything else.
Passive Sonogram might work, but I don't know how big a unit like that needs to be, or what it could interfere with when turned on.

I also found some information on Air Composition Testers. They are Really expensive!
And the more things you want to test for, the more complicated they get, and the bigger they get, an the larger the air sample they have to take.

So we would probably want a smaller, simpler Air Comp Tester. Oxygen, Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide, and Moisture content. Those percentages from samples taken at (?) minute intervals.
The time intervals apparently are important too. If you want one of those things doing samples 2-3 times a second you have to spend massive massive money.

I'm thinking we can get away with it taking a sample every 5-10 minutes realistically.

So there is that. Also if you can't tell, the 4 pack sensor arrays are stacked 3 vertical on each cable to match the position of the laser array. Gives us a real 3 dimensional data set. So something can move in multiple axis and still be tracked.

What we end up with is (man I wish I could make tables in this post box):

Laser interference data if any.
Emf Data correlated to dual point laser data.
Temperature data correlated directly to EMF by position.
Air Composition samples correlated directly to EMF and Temp data by position.
Barometric Pressure data correlated directly th EMF and Temp and Air Comp samples by position.
And physical Gravitational Pressure data correlated with EMF Temp Air Comp and Barometric pressure, by position.

And again that pressure plate idea was a good addition. Since it is statically resisting gravity, and shift up or down over the plate will register some data.

I think this rig could measure the worlds softest nun fart!!! What about you?

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by Zamini
reply to post by woodwytch

 

See, I have issues with stuff like this that makes me yell and scream FAKE at the top of my lungs:

This is from one of those other threads:

>Tuesday 15th June 2010<

MOTHER 1, was woken-up in the early hours to feel 'someone' pushing her down into the bed by her shoulders ... after she tried to struggle and get up from the bed she said it felt like her entire body was pinned to the bed ... she could literally feel the weight of someone on top of her ... pinning her down. She couldn't move ... she couldn't scream ... she was terrified !

What is described here is sleep paralysis, including the dark figure she saw. So why in GODS name would you mess their minds up even further by saying it is a demon of kinds? It's not the right thing to do for crying out loud, that's why you are met with hostility just like the other poster - you are SCARING very SIMPLE people. Your degrees won't save you from scrutinizing.

I can only assume that you didn't read the whole thread (it is quite long addmittedly) ... otherwise you might have a modicum of an idea of what you were talking about

Also I must assume that you have not had any firsthand experience yourself in such matters ... and therefore your scepticism should be applauded because it can be just as harmful to accept everything at face value as it is to deny everything without consideration ... so well done.

And I'm sure that you'll be very pleased to hear that since we resolved their problem (the case that you quoted from) they are all much happier and have been able to return to normal everyday lives ... and just in case you were wondering ... my team and I do not charge for our services and we only take on clients who we have been recommended to from other satisfied clients (hence the reason we determined to stay 'small' and 'private').

Scrutinize all you like I only mentioned the degrees to prove that people of science can also dare to step outside the box and view the bigger picture. (I know this thought can be even scarier than the idea of coming face to face with a spirit to most left-brainers)

I hope this clears up the apparent confusion you had when you mistook me for just another run of the mill charlatan ... and just for the record I have never once been met with hostility (in the real world) because of my feet on the floor, realistic approach. But I am not in the business of trying to 'convert' people ... I leave that to other belief systems .

I'm guessing we will have to agree to disagree on this subject so please be aware that I will not derail this thread further by getting into a childish argument with you about who's right and who's wrong (each to their own).

Woody

reply to post by woodwytch

Also I must assume that you have not had any firsthand experience yourself in such matters ... and therefore your scepticism should be applauded because it can be just as harmful to accept everything at face value as it is to deny everything without consideration ... so well done.

I love how you put it to scepticism. In fact, I have experienced TONS of this and hear COUNTLESS "witness" testimonials. You try explaining to an aunt that what she experienced was sleep paralysis and not a demon trying to take her soul. You watch as she doesn't believe you, falls prey to the "Demon-Hunters" better known as Christians and f*cks up her life royally because she chooses to believe in fairy tales, demons and spirits.

You studied science right? Scientifically speaking, how many people do you think suffer from cognitive dissonance? How about how many people suffer from (partial) delusions?

Scrutinize all you like I only mentioned the degrees to prove that people of science can also dare to step outside the box and view the bigger picture.

Please, don't insult my intelligence. The bigger picture? You're a grown adult keeping busy with spirits and demons in 2011. Try stepping out of the box by exposing all these liars for what they are, instead of following the path which thousands took before you; ie. abusing simple minded people after getting a degree or two. People like you live in a bubble. A bubble people like me enjoy to burst.

I hope this clears up the apparent confusion you had when you mistook me for just another run of the mill charlatan ...

There are also people who are not run-of-the-mill charlatans. They are plane charlatans. Who do it for the attention. And of course you are not going to be met with hostility, you are playing into their fears.

I'm guessing we will have to agree to disagree on this subject so please be aware that I will not derail this thread further by getting into a childish argument with you about who's right and who's wrong (each to their own).

Well, leaning on spirit and demons is not childish at all I guess.

God forbid we should want to look at the paranormal from a different perspective. How arrogant of us. I guess we should only seek answers from the astral plane and years of meditation and spiritual contemplation. Perhaps we can even write our questions on a piece of paper, fold it up, bury it in the ground on a new moon, chant a quaint poem several times, and the answers to the spirit realms will be opened to us.

Originally posted by Zamini
reply to post by woodwytch

 

Also I must assume that you have not had any firsthand experience yourself in such matters ... and therefore your scepticism should be applauded because it can be just as harmful to accept everything at face value as it is to deny everything without consideration ... so well done.

I love how you put it to scepticism. In fact, I have experienced TONS of this and hear COUNTLESS "witness" testimonials. You try explaining to an aunt that what she experienced was sleep paralysis and not a demon trying to take her soul. You watch as she doesn't believe you, falls prey to the "Demon-Hunters" better known as Christians and f*cks up her life royally because she chooses to believe in fairy tales, demons and spirits.

You studied science right? Scientifically speaking, how many people do you think suffer from cognitive dissonance? How about how many people suffer from (partial) delusions?

Scrutinize all you like I only mentioned the degrees to prove that people of science can also dare to step outside the box and view the bigger picture.

Please, don't insult my intelligence. The bigger picture? You're a grown adult keeping busy with spirits and demons in 2011. Try stepping out of the box by exposing all these liars for what they are, instead of following the path which thousands took before you; ie. abusing simple minded people after getting a degree or two. People like you live in a bubble. A bubble people like me enjoy to burst.

I hope this clears up the apparent confusion you had when you mistook me for just another run of the mill charlatan ...

There are also people who are not run-of-the-mill charlatans. They are plane charlatans. Who do it for the attention. And of course you are not going to be met with hostility, you are playing into their fears.

I'm guessing we will have to agree to disagree on this subject so please be aware that I will not derail this thread further by getting into a childish argument with you about who's right and who's wrong (each to their own).

Well, leaning on spirit and demons is not childish at all I guess.

I think you are entirely missing the point ... just not sure whether that's on purpose or not but this post is intended to lighten the mood a little.

In principle the OP's idea to try and prove the existence of the paranormal using science is great ... it's just his/her psychological attitude that's slightly flawed ... it's a little like going into a lab ... slopping a few unlabelled chemicals into a beaker without knowing if any of them are combustibles (boom) ... and this is the analogy that should be used when exposing your young children to the paranormal without consideration for the potential consequences.

So, in the spirit of your 'debate' ... I saw the image below, on another ATS thread and this seems like the perfect opportunity to use it ... I fully accept that you will not be shifted in your opinion and that's absolutely fine ... but just remember, that still doesn't make you right

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/693a33fe6573.jpg[/atsimg]

... but I won't !

Have fun. Woody

Originally posted by harryhaller
reply to post by Butterbone

 

You conceited prat.

reply to post by Butterbone


That is a great post OP and I do the same thing trying to experience some sort of haunting to no avail. That sounds like an awesome time with your son.

reply to post by woodwytch


This isn't a debate! Why are you so focused on making this a situation where you have to prove that you are right.
I don't really see where anyone is telling you that you are wrong. Several people seem to disagree with the idea that science can't prove anything. Which even to me seems to be the only thing you are repeatedly expressing. And I admit also, I see that as ridiculous. If it exists, then I am confident science can be used to understand it.
Science may not be able to understand it fully, right now, but that is a far cry different than the claims that science can NEVER explain something.

My point in the thread is to get people to look at the current methodology and technology and principles of science that are being employed to attempt to measure activities and or claims of ghost activity, and see if we can't find more ways and principles that maybe are not being employed, or that aren't being employed together.

You can be whatever kind of ghost demon spirit expert you want to be. But if you can't contribute in this thread to the ideas expressed in this thread, Why do you want to keep posting in it?

You can't expect anyone who wants to read this thread and discuss the ideas presented, to just accept that you are the Indiana Jones of ghost busting and say OK, we don't need science, a self professed PHD Witch just gave us all the answers by telling us we are arrogant and ignorant.
Which by the way is a great way to handle a debate that only you seem to be having.


I will say that I very much liked you Anology about walking into a Laboratory full of chemicals and simply mixing together any random elements. You are 100% correct that if a person were to do that it would be incredibly dangerous and could easily end in tragedy.

The problem is that from my perspective I am walking into an empty room. And taking pictures of the blank walls.
And YOU are telling me that I am actually mixing and matching invisible chemicals that even You can't tell me what chemicals I am mixing, or if the chemicals are even really present. You are just assuming that some chemicals are present, and assuming that by my being in the room, I am mixing them together.


So if you want to be helpful, and you want to make sure I really understand what danger I put my kids in. Please give me the actual list of what spirits dangerous and benevolent that me and my children actually came into contact with that night 4 years ago in a cemetery whose location you don't even know.

Not the entities we "potentially" could have come into contact with. Because potentially we could be drinking sulfuric acid from the water tap, if we are talking about just pure potential of what is available. I'll need you to divine what we actually came in contact with.
If you have any credibility at all, and any real training in science and just logical thinking at all. You have to admit that you don't know. Can't know. And are for the most part, just expressing your opinion that something bad could have happened.

I'll even agree in theory, if ghosts are real, and if we can interact with them, and if there happened to be angry ghosts with a penchant for attaching themselves to people, and if they could do some kind of harm, then MAYBE, we could have gotten ourselves into something bad.

SO now do you feel "right" since I have admitted that I could be theoretically wrong? If I need to, I can string together as many "Ifs" "Maybes" and "possibly's" as it takes for you to feel like you are right. So you can feel superior about it. Since obviously my reason for being here is to ensure you feel like you are the expert.

From our perspective, we encountered a whole lot of nothing, and left wishing something had happened.

reply to post by Butterbone



also a reply to this post:
reply to post by Butterbone





ghosts, spirits...are 'paranormal' thus outside the realm of regular science and physics...


the only kind of imaging device that could capture a 'ghost' would be a device that could 'see' what a witnessers' brain 'sees'...

ghosts are denizens of the mind... and those people with an attenuated 'god-part-of the-brain' will be able to organize the diffuse/ephemeral wisp of a 'spiritual entity' that may be around them ---i.e. 'haunting' a place.


shamans, psychics, might be able to train or guide a person to develop their Second Sight...

but ghost hunting as such with all those tom-foolery gadgets we see on TV shows is only entertainment fluff.


spinning in circles to get scientific data on paranormal, spiritual things is also a waste of effort...
the 'Key' is inner vision...not material universe hardware....

sorry to burst the bubble, but get that shaman you cast off....


________ i would say that any force / energy that would create a wispy form would always be overwhelmed from direct observation because 'its own' weak life-force field would be lost in the sprectrum of energies that radiate from every direction of space.

it would br Pretty much like a person getting photographed standing in front of a 2 million candle-power flood light... the form/shape/ including any features would be unobservable...
one would need to turn off the overly bright light or else to stack so many filters on the image source that one would need to develop a program to connect-the-vaporous-dots of the ghost entity. (these ghosts
exist only in an observers mind/brain/reason/intellect/heart/soul)

reply to post by St Udio



I can't agree with your assertions, but I do like your analogy about the Person standing in front of a bright light.

This is another type of measurement that I hadn't considered.

Filtering something out to reveal what else is present is a great way to find new information.

Currently I can't even imagine what could be filtered out though. You can look at it possibly that UV cameras and Thermal cameras filter out other information.

Thanks for posting that. I'm going to have to put some research in on what you can filter from standard space.

Something just now that your post also inspired was your comment about light energy. It made me think of space/time.

Something I hadn't considered was measuring TIME. Each of the 4 pack sensor arrays also needs a moderately sensitive and synchronized Chronograph. It's possible time could be distorted in these situations. We wouldn't know unless we measured it right?

Thanks again. Your post has provided 2 great inspirations.

And just so you know, the shamans aren't being "Cast off". Its just that in this specific case of trying to build a measuring system, shamans can't add directly to the instrumentation.

But thanks to your post I admit that ideas expressed from a shamanistic person did inpsire new ideas for measurement. And that is still a contribution and I won't ignore it.

Originally posted by Balkan
God forbid we should want to look at the paranormal from a different perspective. How arrogant of us. I guess we should only seek answers from the astral plane and years of meditation and spiritual contemplation. Perhaps we can even write our questions on a piece of paper, fold it up, bury it in the ground on a new moon, chant a quaint poem several times, and the answers to the spirit realms will be opened to us.

LOL! Good stuff


I am impressed with your model Butterbone, you are obviously taking this serious and I commend you on a great thread. Don't let it become derailed.