Today we start our revolution! Wish us good luck...

Originally posted by Shinta
Coquine I'm so sorry you feel this way, finding a job and being able to have a future are completely different.
If you're in your twenties in France, you can have a engineering degree, nobody wants to pay an engineer what he's worth. So you take a waiter gig, so you can get help for your rent, and not pay taxes.
Still think it's lazyness? The system is absurd.

I have repeatedly been accused of calling people lazy, and I will point out AGAIN that someone else said that- I did not.
Now, paying an engineer "what he’s worth" may have different meanings for us ! Many french kids think « having an education in engineering » means he’s worth a lot. I do not agree. There are many with a degree in engineering. That is not enough.

Either you know somebody important or you don't. Every mate of mine that got a job after their degrees, got it thanks to their dad's friend, or whoever.

This is true- the « piston » is the strong force in France. From my point of view, as a foriegner more obligated to percieve how the system works and choose my acts accordingly, I work with that. For example, in your place, I’d get a job waitering in a place successful engineers regularly have lunch at (like next to their offices) and get working on socializing with them ! Make contacts, weave connections….. find out when a post opens in that office, even if it is secretary or something, to start getting in and getting known, and gaining knowledge of the metier from all angles from the inside ! Social networking is essential in France- business and personal relations are NOT separate here, as you know.
But if you are french (therefore, in my mind, with more right to make changes in the culture) then what about activating for a change in this cultural value ? To the proposition of laws against (and enforcement against) favoritism and embauchment bias via personal relations ??

You may have found a way to have a future here, I can't understand how you can still be saying that you deserved it, because you sweat, fought and wept for it.

It’s simple- studies have confirmed again and again that it is part of human behavior regardless of cultural origin : we appreciate and feel more pleasure at achieving things that were difficult to achieve. Challenge is a necessity for humans in their instincual desire to know themselves through experience and what they are capable of. Make life too easy and they will CREATE drama in their lives, perception of obstacles and opponents to clash with.

It's as if you were saying that everybody has to go through hell in order to get a life-changing opportunity.

Hell ? Hm… more like « challenge and difficulty » yeah. (liking challenge is possible too, when you have tasted it) In this case, your savvy in communicatiosn and social networking would be essential for working in engineering anyway, so to get in, you’d have to develop it well anyway.

I deserved my degrees, I'm pretty sure PitchDragon deserved them too.

I’m sure you did. The question is not have you earned your degree, but have you earned a high paying job as an engineer ? Is one necessarily the other ? I don’t believe so. There is not enough positions available for all the graduates with a degree in engineering- there has to be something that raises some above the rest. But perhaps you could attack the problem from another angle- lowering the taxes on those who are self employed or have an enterprise ? This could motivate more people to be entrepreneuring, create more business, and more jobs ? There’s a cause too !

What about activating movements to make contracts that exist which leave more possibility for employees to leave, employers to fire, to get more movement and turn over going in the work market ? Encourage cultural revolution in values- from « one job for life », to changing metiers midlife (I’d like to be able to go to the fac and learn a different area, it would free up my business for a young person to take over if they want !)… or to the idea of « moving up » through out ones career ? If the stagnation of older people who keep the same post for 30 years could be shaken up, it would leave positions for younger to move in ! (but of course, you’d have to free yourself from the idea too, of getting your « life job » now for ever….)

These are examples of « thinking beyond the next quarter » in a constructive way. They are just suggestions. Think beyond just burning down what you don't like and building what you would!

reply to post by coquine


when you wonder what I propose and I explained...you do not talk about it
when I say that we had gaz...you said that the media do not speak about it, so it dosent happen and suddenly i'm a liar.
three of us said that Sunday the CRS was brutal
but you continue to explain the benefit of free enterprise and how you must work hard and avoid this part.

until then I took a real pleasure to have a debate with you
but there ...

you do not want to consider the fact ... you say how even you" understand" but eatch time you come back with the same routine, same words, same idea i told you i had understand your point of view.

you say we're not lazy but when i read what you wrote even if you do not say it, the idea is there.

- HAVING Education don't Means you worth a lot ( and it come back every time)

So I understand I made ​​a long study for anything, the more you study and more you have chance to earn a good place ... this not my words this what people say usualy .. . so why all these young people are rushing to the elite school? for fun , no because this the common idea, now they all want be trader or working for the governement,this the place to be, because since they are young they educate them to ask for more, if you study and have a lot of diploma you will earn a lot of money.

I chose communiction because I like it, I did not chose it because I wanted to earn lots of money,but just i like it, I spend time to learn, my parents had made sacrifices, and I still pay my credit eatch months, it was not a guarantee of earning more money but just working .

the time you have a pass to build yourself is also the time that I spent to build myself, each one's experience.

people who are in the street not ask more money but just not to be sacrificed, they do not require a golden life but just a simple life, but it's always the same argument who come back on and on, lazy bunch of young protestor,go find a job work hard instead to complain and this the idea the media and governement are spreading ...and this is what you say without saying it.

to finish i said the police was not fair with us, we where peaceful and they was not...but you trust media and this time you have the evidence...don't trust the media because they will not talk about it,this is not in their interest
but avoiding to talk about it and actualy i did not read anything from you abiut that make me think is what matter what it cost, your ideas and just your idea even make me look like a liar...

now tell me why should i do not protest

this government is corrupt, every day there are new scandal
they have helped banks and they still doing it
they live like kings and queen and do not hide it anymore
they control the media
they help their friends and family and abused Privileged " le piston"
they divide the country
Right or left-they think only about their victory
they let industry poisening us
they are making war
and the list goes on

So tell me why I should work like a slave to people like that
This country deserves better than that, my grand father who worked hard and very long say "why so much effort to see my little children begging as miserable for something normal at the base "

that's the worst ,we are not asking for something special ... but just a right balance.

coquine please tell me is it fair ?
with all my respect if you have any argument beside the one you reapte again and again ...I do not understand why you're still here.

Originally posted by pitchdragon
reply to post by coquine

 

when you wonder what I propose and I explained...you do not talk about it

I was replying to someone else, based on what they said. I will give you feedback specifically on what you said if you want it! I was already impressed that you took the time to think out and write what you would like to see change- I didn't know you wanted to see what I thought of those things. I'm on my way to Metro right now, but will come back later and do that, I promise!

when I say that we had gaz...you said that the media do not speak about it, so it dosent happen and suddenly i'm a liar.
three of us said that Sunday the CRS was brutal
but you continue to explain the benefit of free enterprise and how you must work hard and avoid this part.

I did not call you a liar! Go back and read what I said- I said "I have looked for it and cannot find it in any media." This still remains true. I have not seen any use of gaz nor usage of brutality. I have however, seen a video of some CRS passively trying to get people to move out, and gently trying to pull them away. I also saw people overreacting and screaming "Il est fou!" while they did that- which gives every impression of people trying to convince themselves they are being victimized when they are not.

I won't claim to know, I can only say what appearences suggest- it looks like some people are expecting or even hoping, to have the CRS react with extreme brutality (perhaps even provoke it with the hostile insults and gestures?) in order to be seen as victims and increase support for their cause, get sympathy to motivate rather than intelligent reason. It suggests the possibility of people so over protected in their lives that they might even be easily humiliated and consider that as "violence".

you do not want to consider the fact ... you say how even you" understand" but eatch time you come back with the same routine, same words, same idea i told you i had understand your point of view.

Again, you seem to be refering to a response I made to someone else I will respond to what you say TO YOU, and with what he says TO HIM.

"

you say we're not lazy but when i read what you wrote even if you do not say it, the idea is there."

Là, tu gamberge.....what I think is that certain "idées récus" (conditioned ideas and values) are getting in the way of you seeing certain alternate perspectives and possibilities. That is not the same as "laziness".

"Having an education makes you worth a lot"
There's one of those "idées récus". Out of date, I'm afraid. That one got a lot of kids into university a while ago, and was accurate then. Now it is less rare to have an education- bringing down it's value.

I chose communiction because I like it, I did not chose it because I wanted to earn lots of money,but just i like it, I spend time to learn, my parents had made sacrifices, and I still pay my credit eatch months, it was not a guarantee of earning more money but just working .

-And all that time in communication and you didn't learn how to motivate others to follow you, with a clear cut plan and vision? Or to respond exactly to what someone says, instead of what you imagine is REALLY inside their head? Or to respond as if a comment is meant for you only when it is clearly addressing you, instead of labelled "Comment in response to..." someone else? You may have the theory, but are lacking communciation experience.

the time you have a pass to build yourself is also the time that I spent to build myself, each one's experience.

Practice through experience and learning theory is not the same thing. You have more theory than I and if you rack up experience as well, you shall probably do better than I!

people who are in the street not ask more money but just not to be sacrificed, they do not require a golden life but just a simple life, but it's always the same argument who come back on and on, lazy bunch of young protestor,go find a job work hard instead to complain and this the idea the media and governement are spreading ...and this is what you say without saying it.

I will repeat what I said earlier- I suspect there are things you don't know, or have blockages which are preventing you from seeing.

now tell me why should i do not protest

Protest? I thought the discussion was about a revolution? I think a revolution is an exaggerrated and inappropriate plan, considering the context. Protest (for specific goals) I am all for.



"So tell me why I should work like a slave to people like that
This country deserves better than that, my grand father who worked hard and very long say "why so much effort to see my little children begging as miserable for something normal at the base "

Your parents and grandparents didn't do the work FOR you. That is a belief that is also no longer applicable in this world. People must make their own lives. The idea that a generation can build something so their kids would not have to work, was very realistic in the times of the kings... as we saw, however, those following generations begin to have their genetics and habits become soft and stupid from lack of challenge. It is not any good for the whole in the long run.

Pitchdragon-

I promised I would give you feedback on the particulars of your proposal for this new government vision in your revolution, and I apologize for not doing it sooner ! I have been very busy, especially today, as you know it is a holiday, but since I open holidays as well as Sundays, I get pretty busy those days.

I want to say first that I feel no personal drive to critique your plan put forth. I felt it important that you specify what your demands are, that’s all. I offer this because you asked for feedback, and perhaps that can be useful to you.

1- I agree that « a true DEMOCRACY is above all an exchange between who drivers who are on board ». We disagree in the sense that those in roles of power only need to listen and obey the people, and not ever the inverse. I see it more as equal exchange. The people elect the leaders to lead. Why elect a leader if you do not intend to follow ? The people are a mass of contradictions, and the leader is hoped to be able to bring all their concerns to compromises and integrate them into one path that will not completely please one side or the other. Compromises are like that. With each election, as well, not everyone will be pleased and have their way. "The people" are not an entity of one mind.

There is also the problem of part of the population being ignorant or short sighted, so at times the road to what they want is NOT what they think it is. The reason that traditionally, in almost all cultures, the leader is placed on a higher level, to symbolize his duty to rise above and see further. Desireable long term effects often take on the appearence of being undesireable in the immediate.

2- I do not totally understand your proposition on financial regulation, and « bringing back the power in the right place. » It sounds as if that « right place » is the government, as that is what would place (more) regulation…….. there are various problems there, like the more power you place in the governments hands, the more people are resentful and bitter against the government for having that power.

3- Supporting local economy, I agree with. You are refering to « outsourcing ». I haven’t seen that to be such a problem in France- the french are very loyal that way and value their manual workers and such… but perhaps that is just my perception due to the contrast between the US and France. The outsourcing there is SO much more prevalent, and being a small business owner, agricultor, or doing manual labor is almost considered lacking any value to the society at all ! France is on the opposite of the spectrum there.

4- Equitable distribution of budgets- you refer to quite a few different things in there, but I agree with investing in research and development of clean energy sources. I haven’t seen France active in a lot of war though, I think they’ve been pretty reasonable there- but then again, I am aware my perception is relative to my experience in my country, which is MUCH more war-mongerish.

5- Solidarity between countries…… sounds great, very idealistic. I personally don’t believe true solidarity and peace between all countries is possible. I mean, people have been wishing for world peace for ever, but also get hostile at the thought of a New World Order at the same time- humans are bags of contradiction, between their desires to be part of a bigger entity, and a whole unto themself, our individual rights and our rights as a community.

If everyone could come to terms with the oppositions within themselves, then I guess we’d see true solidarity in the exterior world appear as well !

But heck, you are young, and idealism is supposed to be the flag you carry, and though I may be an old sceptic, perhaps you can get us part way there !
I just feel that revolution isn't the path to that- no more than having one side of ourself uprise inside and overide completely the other- I prefer the (often more difficult and complex) task of interweaving, communicating and exchanging between the two opposants to integrate them in creative ways is more efficient. But that is only my opinion or preference.