Raising gender-neutral or gender-specific kids.....Does it matter?

Man, are these poor children going to turn out as complete freaks when they're older.

The fact that the children are called Jazz, Kio and Storm, tells us all we need to know about what kind of ''parents'' they have.


Treating your child as a fashion accessory and a subject in your own warped social experiment is about as low as a parent can go without actually breaking a law.

I would personally give the parents an ultimatum: get your act together and start raising your children in the way that is most beneficial to them, not you, or we'll take them to someone who will raise them properly.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
Treating your child as a fashion accessory and a subject in your own warped social experiment is about as low as a parent can go without actually breaking a law.

There is no handbook for raising children, so just because these parents are doing it differently than previous generations doesn't mean they're doing anything wrong.

EVERY parent raises their child under a social experiment.

As it is, children are raised in this society and spend much of their adult life trying to overcome the conditioning (and wounding) they received from their parents. Most people's issues of insecurity, arrogance, self-worth, addictions, etc., can be traced back to something their parents taught them or neglected to teach them. The adult psychology and counseling industry (not to mention pharmaceuticals to deal with feelings) can vouch for that. SOMETHING is wrong with the way we're raising our children.

I commend these parents for trying something different instead of just falling into the rut of repeating what their parents did.

When I was young, I loved both feminine and masculine things. Fortunately, my parents didn't mess with me too much in that area and my mother was SUPER encouraging, nurturing and always let me know how proud she was. I still have my share of issues, but I am very 'balanced' and feel in touch with both my masculine and feminine sides.

I don't see that these parents are doing anything wrong. If I had kids, I wouldn't tell them stories about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, either. Each parent has to do what they think is best.
.
Edit to Add: I have now read the complete article and I think it's wonderful. I am very supportive of these parents.

It's funny how most people here talk about freedom from government intrusion, but when a couple decide to buck the system and its rules, let their child be who they are instead of assigning it with societal pressure and not make them go to government-sponsored 'school', they are seen as crazy progressives. ...stepping outside the programming! Oh noes!

When I think about it... What is OK about the first question to new parents being, "What's between its legs"?
.

My good friends only daughter adopted a little boy she adores and of course my friend loves his new "grandson."
He is only about 7 years old. This little boy does not like the typical boy toys like trucks and dumpsters and guns. He loves to put on his mothers dresses and wear her high heels. When ever anyone puts music on he dances around and tries to get everyone else to dance along with him. He pretends he has a microphone and sings and generally hams it up for the adults that will watch and clap along.

When I watch this child (this little boy) play I can see some trouble in his future.
Now everything he does is wonderful and funny and entertaining because he is in front of a forgiving audience but he will grow up and go to school and though he may be OK for the first few years there will come a time when they beat the "sweet" out of him.

Then he will have to make the decision of his life.
Stay true to who he is or change to become rough and tumble like the other boys.

Yes there is the possibility this boy child will completely outgrow his love of the stage and the drama and the dresses but from where I am sitting I don't see it happening. You can tell. This is who he is.
And this is who he should be.

I sometimes feel they should not let him have his way, like - doesn't my friend see it?
But then what can he do? Make the kid play with trucks.
He just has to love him no matter what. And he does.

I work with a guy that used to be woman - wouldn't have known if I didn't have to deal with some HR stuff. Anyway, his niece comes to stay with him and his partner, and he's told me how much of an effort they make to be gender neutral with the little girl, and how frustrating it is that she always wants to wear pretty clothes and do "girly stuff". I am sure she does plenty of "boy stuff" as well, but in their minds its an issue if she wants to act like a little girl because there must be stereotypes being forced upon her by the evil normal people in society...

Its pretty #ed up if you ask me - I think people should be who they want to be at the end of the day. While these people are big on not forcing their kids to comply with gender norms as the rest of society sees them, they are forcing them to participate in an experiment that will likely cause the kids a lot of psychological trauma and identity crisis in future. Can't have that conversation with most of these morons though - they are too smart for their own good.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
There is no handbook for raising children, so just because these parents are doing it differently than previous generations doesn't mean they're doing anything wrong.

Of course there are correct and incorrect ways to raise a child, as per the society that they are brought up in. In our society, we frown upon mentally, physically and sexually abusing children, for example.

What they are doing is tantamount to emotional abuse, and the children will probably have all sorts of issues growing-up, such as identity and self-esteem issues, bullying, and, above all, coming to terms with the fact that they were deprived of a normal childhood.

I never said that that they were wrong because they're raising their children differently.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
EVERY parent raises their child under a social experiment.

Not really.

There are numerous ways to raise children that have been shown not to be unduly harmful. These ways should be prioritised for the child's sake, and the child should not be a guinea-pig for his or her parents' demented ideology.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
As it is, children are raised in this society and spend much of their adult life trying to overcome the conditioning (and wounding) they received from their parents.

That is just the obvious by-product of how humans are raised. There is no avoiding it.

The children of parents who don't give a toss often grow-up to become a menace to themselves, other people and society, as a whole. A certain degree of parental and societal inculcation is necessary for a ordered, functional society.

If you teach your child the ''Golden Rule'', for example, then that is no less a form of conditioning than anything else. The child may grow up to be a nihilist, perpetually tortured by having to try and shake off a moral rule instilled in him from a young age.

So, if we want to be PC about this, the best way to raise your child would be to not teach or influence them in any way and let them make their own decisions on everything.

The problem being that raising your child without a certain set of morals, values or beliefs, is every bit an act of indoctrination as raising them with them.

In this case, the ''parents'' who are raising their children to be genderless are influencing their children's upbringing in exactly the same way as a parent who encourages them to grow-up in a gender-based way.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Most people's issues of insecurity, arrogance, self-worth, addictions, etc., can be traced back to something their parents taught them or neglected to teach them. The adult psychology and counseling industry (not to mention pharmaceuticals to deal with feelings) can vouch for that. SOMETHING is wrong with the way we're raising our children.

Once again, this is unavoidable. We're talking about impressionable young minds that must have some form of guidance and influence from adults.

The fact that some children grow-up with issues that stem from their childhood doesn't mean that we - as a society - are raising children the wrong way.

For all we know, bad childhood experiences are an unfortunate necessity of growing up.

Many of these issues that you speak of arise from abuse ( which people would pretty much unanimously say should not be involved when raising a child ).

I would suggest that a large proportion of childhood problems are also not caused by the parents or the way that they raised their children. No matter how good a parent is, they have no control over the outside world and the multitude of factors in the world that may emotionally harm their child.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I commend these parents for trying something different instead of just falling into the rut of repeating what their parents did.

Why ?

Different is not synonymous with good. It's a fallacy to suggest that just because you may disapprove of more conventional methods to raise children that any alternative is commendable.

You appear to be under the impression that there are necessarily ''better'' ways to raise children. There may be, then again, there may not be.

As far as I'm concerned, raising children to become risible circus freaks is certainly not to be commended. The ''parents'' are using their twisted, delusional ideology to impact negatively on their unfortunate children's reality.

That is the bottom line.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
When I was young, I loved both feminine and masculine things. Fortunately, my parents didn't mess with me too much in that area and my mother was SUPER encouraging, nurturing and always let me know how proud she was. I still have my share of issues, but I am very 'balanced' and feel in touch with both my masculine and feminine sides.

There's nothing wrong with liking both masculine and feminine things, and I'm not saying that parents should unreasonably discourage their son or daughter from enjoying something that are seen to be girly or boyish.

The problem with the hideous couple in the OP's article, is that they are raising their children to be completely genderless, which will lead, inevitably, to a life of disappointment, shame and misery for the children.

They are completely unhinged to believe in their own reality of fluffy-bunnies and rainbows. This becomes a cause for concern when they are infecting their children with their harmful delusions.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't see that these parents are doing anything wrong. If I had kids, I wouldn't tell them stories about Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, either. Each parent has to do what they think is best.

Not telling your child stories about Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy wouldn't really negatively impact their lives, would it ?

Whereas, letting your son dress in a pink skirt and wearing his hair in pigtails will. These children are in for a childhood of beatings, ridicule and humiliation.

The poor children don't know what's socially appropriate to do, say or wear, if they've never been taught it. They are being raised as socially experimented lambs being fed to society's inevitable slaughter.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's funny how most people here talk about freedom from government intrusion, but when a couple decide to buck the system and its rules, let their child be who they are instead of assigning it with societal pressure and not make them go to government-sponsored 'school', they are seen as crazy progressives.

...stepping outside the programming! Oh noes!

I can't speak for others, but you won't hear me complaining about government intrusion when necessary.

You see, I'm a realist. In an ideal world with pink fluffy bunnies, I wouldn't have a problem with how these ''parents'' are indoctrinating their children.

The big problem being that the world is far from ideal, nature and evolution are not PC.

The sick ''parents'' are letting their fanciful, unrealistic and deluded ideals negatively impact on the reality of the world that their children are forced to live in.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
When I think about it... What is OK about the first question to new parents being, "What's between its legs"?

That's not the question that is being asked. It's the obvious ice-breaker when talking to a new parent, as it usually precedes the next question, which is ''what is his/her name ?''.

If you don't ascertain what gender it is, then you would have to ask ''what is its name ?'' - and most parents probably wouldn't appreciate you constantly referring to their child as an ''it''.

It seems like it would be a much better alternative to remove gender from objects as opposed to children. The fact is a toy is wood or plastic and a child is a living, breathing, thinking person that either has a vagina or a penis. We are born with a gender as we are meant to. A boy wearing pink still has a penis.

When my son was born, my best friend had given birth to a daughter a month before, being very close we knew our children would be spending much time together so I bought "girl" toys for my house for her daughter and she bought "boy" toys for her house for my son. We didn't keep their toys seperate and through toddlerhood and preschool they both played with all the toys together or seperately. As they got older the girl was more inclined toward dolls and stuffed animals my son more inclined to trains and cars. We watched princess movies and Thomas the Tank Engine movies.

Honestly, there are markable differences in boy and girl brains. Females typically are nurturers and males typically are physical or mechanical. This does not mean that one cannot be both or that it is exclusive it's just how things are typically. Pretending that nothing exists between a childs legs is to deny part of what makes that child who it is.

Having read more of the article, this is definitely a case of child cruelty orchestrated by ego-ridden ''parents'' who want to use their own children in a warped social experiment.

There is no way that these ''parents'' should be allowed to continue molding these poor children into messed-up freaks.

Jazz was old enough for school last September, but chose to stay home. “When we would go and visit programs, people — children and adults — would immediately react with Jazz over his gender,” says Witterick, adding the conversation would gravitate to his choice of pink or his hairstyle. That’s mostly why he doesn’t want to go to school. When asked if it upsets him, he nods, but doesn’t say more.

Of course, if your 5-year-old son prances around in pink and wears his hair in three pigtails, then it's unreasonable that that is going to be the main topic of conversation.

Give me a break !

“I regret that (Jazz) has to discuss his gender before people ask him meaningful questions about what he does and sees in this world, but I don't think I am responsible for that — the culture that narrowly defines what he should do, wear and look like is.”

She regrets the fact that she knowingly forces her son to be a target of curiosity and ridicule ?

She's complaining about the reality of society because it doesn't match with the fantasy-world that she is misleading her children into becoming a part of.

She and her husband are willingly grooming their children to become social lepers because that's how they'd like the world to work.

The mind boggles !

Dinner understands why people may find it extreme. “Although I can see the criticism of ‘This is going to be hard on my kid,’ it’s great to say, ‘I love my kid for whoever they are.’”

Of course, never mind that it's going to be hard on their kid, just so long as I can say that I love my kid for whoever they are.

Never has there been a more compelling case for negative eugenics than people like this. These people need to be taken out out of the gene-pool, and pronto !

Storm was named after whipped winds and dark rain clouds, because they are beautiful and transformative.

The above quote tells you everything you need to know about these monstrosities.

This is no laughing matter. If they want to full their lives with delusional nonsense, then fine. But don't have children and infect them with your loathsome New-Age mumbo-jumbo.

Originally posted by Sherlock Holmes
What they are doing is tantamount to emotional abuse,

That's just your opinion. Unless you can show a study of children who have been raised in this environment and studied many years later, there's really no way we can say that this is bad or abusive.

There are numerous ways to raise children that have been shown not to be unduly harmful. These ways should be prioritised for the child's sake, and the child should not be a guinea-pig for his or her parents' demented ideology.

What if this 'gender neutral' way turns out to produce even more well-rounded and confident kids? I don't think "not unduly harmful" is a goal for which I'd strive if I were raising kids.

All children are guinea pigs. Everyone does something a little different. The rule used to be spare the rod and spoil the child. That's how I was raised and OOPS! That messed me up really bad! If I hadn't had my mom's gentleness and nurturing nature to counteract what my dad did to me, it's hard to say how messed up I would be.

Some people today don't EVER lay a hand on their kids. It's a big change as we as a society search and try different things to see how the kids turn out. We are all Guinea pigs.

That is just the obvious by-product of how humans are raised.

Exactly. Overcoming the damage of childhood is a by-product of how the kids are raised. Why not try something different that might omit that damage in the first place?

There is no avoiding it.

You cannot possibly know that. The only way to avoid the damage of childhood is to do it differently and see what happens. I'm confused that you are resigned to the idea that all kids are going to grow up damaged because of how they're raised, yet you're not willing to consider the idea of raising them differently, to get a different result...

In this case, the ''parents'' who are raising their children to be genderless are influencing their children's upbringing in exactly the same way as a parent who encourages them to grow-up in a gender-based way.

I disagree. Putting gender expectations and forcing gender roles on a child is NOT the same as letting their gender identity develop naturally.

Once again, this is unavoidable. We're talking about impressionable young minds that must have some form of guidance and influence from adults.

I'm not talking about stripping all guidance and influence from child rearing... You're taking this to the illogical extreme for argument's sake. We're not talking about letting wolves raise these kids, you know...

The fact that some children grow-up with issues that stem from their childhood doesn't mean that we - as a society - are raising children the wrong way.

Again, I disagree. I think we're doing something VERY wrong. People are screwed up.

Different is not synonymous with good.

True, but doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. If you want a different result, you have to do something DIFFERENTLY. Whether or not this will help, I don't know. I'm not judging that. I'm saying that I commend them for trying something different and I would do so, too, were I a parent.

I do believe that there are necessarily ''better'' ways to raise children.And we won't know what they are unless we start changing what we're doing.

The problem with the hideous couple in the OP's article, is that they are raising their children to be completely genderless, which will lead, inevitably, to a life of disappointment, shame and misery for the children.

You have no basis upon which to make this statement. This is purely your opinion and holds no more weight than the opinion of these parents. They are not raising them to be genderless, they are just not forcing society's stereotypes and gender roles on these kids.

Not telling your child stories about Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy wouldn't really negatively impact their lives, would it?

Maybe, maybe not. I have no personal experience and cannot quote a study. No doubt the kids will be teased by other kids. ALL kids get teased by other kids. I got teased for various reasons and I came out OK.

The poor children don't know what's socially appropriate to do, say or wear, if they've never been taught it.

It's not like they have NO access to the outside world. They interact with people, see men and women and probably watch TV. Their questions are answered. It's not like they're locked in a room and never see society! Besides, I'm not convinced that "social appropriateness" is all it's cracked up to be.

I am all for tolerating alternative lifestyles, but these parents indeed seem to be crazy, putting their ideology before the wellbeing of their child. Parents need to conform their parenting to society so that their children are not ridiculed for their strange social experiments among peers. This child is, and according to his/her own words, it is bothering him/her.

I am no fan of doing social experiments on kids at all. Thats when child protective services should get involved, IMHO.

Also, this has nothing to do with tolerance either. It is one thing to tolerate and support transgender kids, but this is deliberately confusing a normal kid with no obvious transgender psychological or physical traits. Our society is gender-specific, and there is only one reason to rise a child strictly gender neutral, even as far as keeping the biological gender secret - ideology and experiments over wellbeing of the child. Disgusting.

reply to post by lcbjr1979


My daughter is like yours I think. I feel I am raising her to be pretty well balanced....She loves barbies and dressing up and playing with makeup....but will then turn around and play martial arts in her princess outfit. She loves "boy" type games like WoW, Rift and more...She is an extreme computer nerd yet wants to be a fashion designer and does runway shows all the time. One of her neighborhood friends is a boy and she always plays boys stuff with him....but does not understand why he wont play with her barbies. lol She knows that there are no limits for her when it comes to whatever she wants to be when she grows up...

This is all her own doing, not really my pushing....I have let her discover her interests as she grows...

With that said...I do see what you are talking about in regards to the shows and the roles girls play. Luckily my daughter is absolutely fascinated with women heroins who show independence and strength in the mind and body.

She is in Krav Maga and when she first started, she was the only girl. Now the girls outnumber the boys.

I still think I may fall into the gender specific roles in some aspects though.....I dont have a boy, but if I did, yeah, I think I would fall into that group...but who knows. I guess I really do not know unless Im put in that situation.... :/

Hmm...

Well, like one poster mentioned. You are either a male or female when you are born, though there can be "both". Getting all miffed that there are genders, well that doesn't seem like a proper platform to raise a child.

"A parents first questions should not be..."

What should it be then? In this perfect world fallacy argument, what exactly should the world be asking the parents? I mean I agree, "Is that a penis or a vagina baby?" is a bit rough, though that isn't what they are asking is it? They are asking "Is it a boy or a girl?" What should they refer to the child as? "It"? "Thing"? "Human Baby"?

"Raising circus freaks"

I am glad we have members around that can decide what is normal and what is freakish! Such discrimination is always a welcome read to me! (That is sarcasm) But this brings us to an important point. People are fools, and many of those fools are bigots/moral pushers. IE "Not my way? Then it is weird and wrong." Just because something strays from average, does not make it wrong. Just as: Just because something is different, doesn't make it better.

Evidence is what is needed. And "better/worse" are subjective. So, just because you see it as worse doesn't mean it is. Just means it is worse for you, and that you should do it different. Anything more, is moral pushing. IE They better do it a way I agree with, or they should have their kids taken away.

People like that, those are the people that I want to beat with my fists. Your ways are not the "right" ways.

Now, onto the parents...They sound like children themselves. They are using their children to make statements, which is an ultimate form of dissrespect. "Falcon is a peacock, he needs to be able to fly." Bull, "Falcon" is a statemtent for you. Something to use as YOUR moral pushing device. Falcon should be able to wear pink, and dress like a girl...YES in a PERFECT WORLD. Guess what, nirvanna fallacy. They even have a fancy name for this type of thinking.

I prefer to call it moral pushing. Falcon should be able to wear pink, and I will force you to accept it. My fists are burning...

reply to post by Laokin


But what does being a boy really mean?
I agree that a boy should know he is a boy based on his genes/body parts....but beyond that, society says that boys must wear blue and not pink. While many men look very good in pink (depending on their skin tone, etc) many men absolutely refuse to wear it. Why? Is it not just a color?
Is being a boy mean you cannot play with dolls and learn to nurture?

Would I put a boy in pink? I really dont know....I guess this is why im raising this issue to challenge my thoughts and see if other people's insights tweak something in my mind.

reply to post by greeneyedleo


A boy wears blue, a boy does boy things.

The Nirvana fallacy is the logical error of comparing actual things with unrealistic, idealized alternatives. It can also refer to the tendency to assume that there is a perfect solution to a particular problem. A closely related concept is the Perfect solution fallacy.

en.wikipedia.org...

That is all that is going on with this type of thinking.

Boy/girl is the way things are, this does not make it right or wrong though.

"Life sucks, then you die."

That sentence there, that exists for reasons such as this. Of course the next step in this faulty argument is stating, "If we all tried we could change it". Again, comparing actual things with the unrealistic.

Believe me, I have my own "gender issue". This argument/discussion that is going on here, I have been having with many humans for many years. Meh.

When we raised our kids, they were allowed to select most of the objects that they played with and/or how they dressed.

Our son loved to play with toys where you could build things. He also loved cars etc typical boy stuff. He grew up to become an engineer.

Our daughter went through phases in how she dressed. She did have some pretty ponies type toys. She was in 4H and now is an Ornithologist.

We had some relatives who tried very hard to be gender neutral but I think it just confused their kids.

Kids like what they like and will play with the toys they like. Let them have a selection and choose their own way. Don't try to impose politically correct attitudes on what your kids like. It just doesn't work.

reply to post by adigregorio


You're correct.

The Nirvana fallacy is exactly what these ''parents'' are exhibiting in their irresponsible, selfish and cruel ego-trip.

I'm sick and tired of people letting their delusional ideologies override reality to the detriment of others.

This story is a perfect example of this:

Ideal world. Jazz dresses in pink, wears his hair in pigtails and wears an ear-stud. Jazz has lots of friends of both genders who have unique and varied tastes in clothes, interests, hairstyles and jewellery.

Real world. Jazz dresses in pink, wears his hair in pigtails and wears an ear-stud. Jazz gets beaten-up, abused and humiliated by his peers and ridiculed by adults when he ventures out in public. Jazz becomes a social recluse and wishes he could be normal, have friends and enjoy his childhood. Jazz's depression turns to self-hatred and resentment towards his parents. Jazz turns to drink and drugs to numb the pain and eventually takes out the years of emotional abuse in a violent way towards himself or others.

Do you know of the book: "The Princess Boy"?

I really commend these parents. It was not easy for them - - and they had to work through the process of being his parents. It was not an easy thing.

What is really amazing is they worked with his preschool - teachers - and even the other children to accept him as he is.

Think about it - - - how many people (adults and children) have learned acceptance from this little boy - - because his parents had the courage to let him be who he is.

www.myprincessboy.com...

reply to post by Annee


As I have been saying, I do not approve of moral pushing.

...and teaches children -- and adults -- how to...

Saucy Sourcie (My Princess Boy)

It is only teaching if one is asking for knowledge. Forcing knowledge (or acceptance) onto others, is pushy--hey! Moral Pushing! (That is how I came up with the name.)

Same goes for the other side, saying that the kids should be taken away (or parents punished). That is also moral pushing.

Unfortunatly, tis a Kobyashi Maru (In my opinion, of course.) Without using a fallacy, I can not seem to find a solution...wait for it...to this problem...wait for it...

This leads me to believe that none of this is a problem. Just an "in your face" way to expose bigoted mindsets, and if that is your bag of chips then have at it. Just don't be surprised when your dress wearing boy gets beaten up because he is a "fag".

This is first hand experience talking to you people, I didn't wear dresses though. I wear/wore diapers. It IS wrong for the boys to dress up as girls, that is a fact of society. Should it be wrong? That is a fallacy of logic, because it IS wrong.

"But we can change people"

Nope, only their diapers.

Wow. Boyhood is so very fragile.

I wish someone had told me before. I wouldn't have let my son where three "top knots" (pony tails) because his penis could have fallen off.

Maybe the martial arts throwing of pretend fireballs at strangers in the grocery store was some sort of talisman to ward off the evil penis-falling-off caused by wearing an elastic in his hair, or his pink polo.



I wonder when he yelled about how he wanted top knots at the age of two if I should have spanked him into a coma over it. Because you know, boys would never be....well....aggressively insistent or anything. I'm sure that honouring YOUR version of boyness was more important than honouring him actually acting like a boy. BTW, the elastics "top knots" were somewhere between seeing his sisters getting their hair done and it activating his competitive streak (er...acting like a boy), and looking like Avatar the Last Airbender.

Originally posted by adigregorio
This is first hand experience talking to you people, I didn't wear dresses though. I wear/wore diapers. It IS wrong for the boys to dress up as girls, that is a fact of society. Should it be wrong? That is a fallacy of logic, because it IS wrong.

You want to stay stuck in your Black and White world - - that's your choice.

Live evolves. Knowledge evolves. Understanding evolves. Science evolves.

Its very clear today that sexuality is all shades of gray - - not Black and White.

Originally posted by Annee
You want to stay stuck in your Black and White world - - that's your choice.

Lol, it is not my world it is the REAL world. Society (ours) does not look highly on boys that do not follow societies (ours) gender "rules".

You can pretend all you want that society (ours) accepts it, but that does not make it true.

You can say how society (ours) should accept it, but that is a logical fallacy (Nirvana, or Perfect World, fallacy)

Originally posted by Annee
Live evolves. Knowledge evolves. Understanding evolves. Science evolves.

On its own, or can you force life to evolve? Can you force a person to learn, to understand? Can you force science to advance?

Then why force society to accept?

Originally posted by Annee
Its very clear today that sexuality is all shades of gray - - not Black and White.

To you, perhaps. Forcing that "obviousness" onto others, that isn't kosher (IMO). Just as them forcing their ideals (Black and White) on you is not kosher. And, unless rules have changed, two wrongs don't make a right. Especially when you are using others to supply the wrong.