A Civil Discourse for the 2012 Presidential Election

Originally posted by beezzer
If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything".
-Somebody Important Said It. (Not me)

Aaron Tippin
2nd

reply to post by tothetenthpower
Ho, Keeper.

I'd like to offer some disagreement with your assessment of Ron here, and comparison with Obama. I haven't been following politics for very long, but since I became aware of Paul back in 2007, I've been continually impressed with his consistency.

The only positions I can find a shift in over a decades-long political run lie in that he no longer supports a federal death penalty, as well as his shift away from the typical libertarian view on completely open borders & immigration.

I've never been able to see much indication of bending to corporate or party pressure honestly - might have just missed something here, so if you have any examples I'll gladly look into them - but appears to me his refusal to do so is why he's been languishing (for lack of a better term) in congress as long as he has, with as little influence and weight as he's been given by his party until recently - nice to be proven right once in awhile.

His political donations, as compared to opponents in the last election, are telling in my opinion. Pretty decent fundraising, and almost entirely from individual donors averaging about $50 a pop. His income from members of the armed services during the last quarter of '07 and the continued strong appeals they make for his policies also strikes me.

As far as his views & plans, I'd like to ask that you check out his article My Plan for a Freedom President over at Young Americans for Liberty and let me know what you think. It all seems to be fairly well reasoned and correct regarding the limitations on what a president can do, in addition to the big strides they actually ARE able to take on their own.

In closing, I'd like to say I can't really view him merely as a politician (statesman is honestly more fitting, IMHO). For me, he's just a doctor who heeded the call he also pushes on us to try to make a difference as best he could - the legislation he's introduced and the ideals he's stood strong on in the face of opposition speak for themselves as I see it. He prompted a good many of his supporters to get active in all levels of government, has not received lucrative payouts from lobbyists, and has a fairly modest net worth, as compared to most who remain in politics for any length of time. I simply cannot view him as another piece in the system, especially with as strongly as the rest of the system seems to oppose him.

Thanks and be well.

reply to post by watcher3339


Hi watcher

I guess I'll just recommend to take a look at my response to tothetenthpower here on your thread, as well as suggest checking out the link to the article I provided.

I really like Ron Paul, but will admit up front that if there were someone else running with the majority of Dr. Paul's views, a record of consistent integrity close to his, and a better chance of gaining the nomination, I would definitely support them in his stead as we need the change in thought and policies he presents, and not the man himself (and I would honestly like to see him just be able to relax and enjoy his golden years).

He's been married to the same woman for at least 54 years now, has raised his children to be doctors and politically-involved, and appears to genuinely care about the US and us, as well as have very good ideas for how to address the issues we're facing, in addition to being almost prescient in warning us what was coming before it happened (results of our economic policies leading to the collapse in '08, and results of the wars before we got into them - I'd like to recommend checking out his book A Foreign Policy of Freedom: Peace, Commerce, and Honest Friendship, which is a collection of his speeches in congress and predictions/warnings he made in them).

A few other things I love about him - he gets bothered by the same things that bother me (instead of terrorists and gays, and whatnot), and he doesn't sling mud or conduct dirty campaigns - the issues are the issue, and not the other candidates.

I highly recommend looking into him, and even some liberals and independents REALLY like him - check out Ron Paul: A Lesser Evil? over at the dissident voice for a great breakdown of his progressive virtues as compared to Obama.

Thanks!

reply to post by boondock-saint


If that's what it takes, then that's what it takes.
But I'l going down fighting.
"It is better to die on your feet as a freeman, than to live your life on your knees as a slave!"
-Someone Else Very Important (not me)

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by watcher3339

 

You really have to actually look at what has been going on. Is it social services or a CAGE to trap and "domesticate us into serfdom" ????

I am old enough to remember the same years that Ron Paul does.

Do you really think there was No "Safety Net" back in those "Dark Ages" ??? The safety net was there. The town Doctor and Dentist provide free medical or reduced rate to those who could not afford it - it is now illegal to do so. The county had a "Home" or Farm where those in trouble or vagrants were housed. Churches ran shelters or fund drives.

THERE WERE NO STREET PEOPLE! The governmentMUST have street people to continue pushing for the cage. Also the US incarceration rate has sky rocketed until now 1 in four adults in the USA has a record.

More important there was OPPORTUNITY! You could cut lawns, baby sit, take in ironing or sewing, clean houses. You did not need a half dozen permits and an insurance company skimming 10 to 20% of the gross.

One by one these alternate sources of income, available to anyone with a couple of words of English, have been shutdown through over regulation. Within the last fifteen years the "Independant Consultant" has been wiped out. Now Kelly Temp is the larges employer in the USA and is skimming half to two thirds or more of the hourly wage for the "service" of placing you.

Now with the Food Safety Modernization act the last door is being slammed in the face of "Free Americans" We will now be wage slaves to a corporation or subject to the petty whims of a little Hitler who can bankrupt you if he doesn't like the look of your face or if a large corporation wants your land, business or patents at fire sale prices.

Looking back over fifty years I can see we have traded our freedom for the "safety" of the cage called "social services and government regulation.

^This made my arm hair rise lol my pops tells me basically the same thing about "back in the days"

reply to post by beezzer

I'll play.
Everyone has to give up abortion and we'll say okay to "limited" Obama-style healthcare.
Do a flat-tax of 7% for everyone an we'll end the wars.
Eliminate the silly gun laws and we'll invest more into green energy solutions.

See? Compromise.

I still don't see how it can work until you resolve philosophical differences. Conservatives believe in small gov't and less taxes. Liberals believe in a Nanny state, cradle to grave socialism. How can they be reconciled?

reply to post by txraised254

^This made my arm hair rise lol my pops tells me basically the same thing about "back in the days"

I am glad someone else (your Pop) verifies my observation.

TPTB have been "SLOWLY Boiling the Frog" for 100 years. They have incrementally taken our wealth and our freedom.


If voters do not see this ASAP the door of the cage will be slammed shut.

This is an example of one Cage DOOR that just got slammed shut.

Food Safety Modernization Act: www.fda.gov...

SEC. 404. COMPLIANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS.

Nothing in this Act (or an amendment made by this Act) shall be construed in a manner inconsistent with the agreement establishing the World Trade Organization or any other treaty or international agreement to which the United States is a party.....

The law also mentions GAP (Good Agricultural Practices) by name.

Following that trail down the rabbit hole we find the OIE and FAO have worked with World Trade Organization TO WRITE OUR FOOD LAWS!!!! Now Congress has handed complete control of our food supply over to foreign groups and we, the American citizen are completely cut out of the picture!

Fruits and Veggies

What are Good Agricultural Practices?

A multiplicity of Good Agricultural Practices (GAP) codes, standards and regulations have been developed in recent years by the food industry and producers organizations but also governments and NGOs, aiming to codify agricultural practices at farm level for a range of commodities....
www.fao.org... [has links]

OIE Good Farming Practices: Livestock
GUIDE TO GOOD FARMING PRACTICES FOR ANIMAL PRODUCTION FOOD

Good Dairy Farming Practice

Short Report of what the S.O.B.s are up to: OIE WORKING GROUP ON ANIMAL PRODUCTION FOOD SAFETY Report to the 77th General Session of the OIE International Committee - Paris, 24–29 May 2009


A few years ago before This law passed the FDA stated:

International Harmonization
www.cfsan.fda.gov...

The harmonization of laws, regulations and standards between and among trading partners requires intense, complex, time-consuming negotiations by CFSAN officials. Harmonization must simultaneously facilitate international trade and promote mutual understanding, while protecting national interests and establish a basis to resolve food issues on sound scientific evidence in an objective atmosphere. Failure to reach a consistent, harmonized set of laws, regulations and standards within the freetrade agreements and the World Trade Organization Agreements can result in considerable economic repercussions.
Participation in Codex Alimentarius
Cosmetics International Activities
International Organizations and Standard-Setting Bodies
International Office of Epizootics
International Plant Protection Convention
World Health Organization
Food and Agricultural Organization
Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on Food Additives (JECFA)
Joint Meeting on Pesticide Residues
Joint FAO/WHO Expert Committee on Microbiological Risk Assessments
Pan American Health Organization
Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development

American farmers and American Consumers, the people who the government is SUPPOSED TO be taking orders from, are completely left out of the process!!!!

As far as I am concerned this is nothing less than treason and this is just ONE example. I am sure if we dig there are others.

reply to post by incrediblelousminds

We are on the same team.

Well if we are all on the same team then get the rest of the "nice guys" off there @$$ and force this whole system out! I think nothing short of armed revolution will save this country! If Ron Paul is not elected in 2012 I think we will all see a very messy, bloody, future

reply to post by mishigas

I still don't see how it can work until you resolve philosophical differences. Conservatives believe in small gov't and less taxes. Liberals believe in a Nanny state, cradle to grave socialism. How can they be reconciled?

I really do not think the philosophical differences are as great as we are led (by J.P. Morgan's Propaganda machine) to believe.

Do we ALL really want a system where it is "Acceptable" for The police to pickup a wheelchair bound man and smash his face into the ground?? Where TSA agents grope high school students at prom security checkpoints and grope little or three-year-old girls?

Do we really want a system where the CEOs buy up senators, congressman and presidents so they can get anti-competition regs passed and drive out of business all the small Mom and Pop enterprises. SO that once they are the only business they can cut worker wages and made even more shoddy products? Products that are harming or killing us??

SHIELDING THE GIANT:

USDA’s “Don’t Look, Don’t Know” Policy for Beef Inspection

This investigative report, as part of an ongoing series on corporate and government accountability, was
researched and written by GAP Legal Director, Tom Devine.... www.whistleblower.org...

I think most of us can agree:

1. We do not want law enforcement agents to be above the law and routinely ignore our Constitutional rights.

2. We do not want the Trans-national corporations writing self serving laws and regs and then stuffing the bureaucracies that enforce them with their YES Men.

3. We do not want the Bankers siphoning off 50% of our wages giving nothing in return.


These types of point however are NEVER part of the discussion in the media because the media is all about keeping us divided.

The actual divide in the USA is between normal people and "The Political Class"

23% Say U.S. Government Has the Consent of the Governed

67% of Political Class Say U.S. Heading in Right Direction, 84% of Mainstream Disagrees
Recent polling has shown huge gaps between the Political Class and Mainstream Americans on issues ranging from immigration to health care to the virtues of free markets.

65% Say Most Judges Should Be Elected, Political Class Disagrees

64% Say Americans Are Overtaxed, Political Class Disagrees


Voters See Cutting Spending and Deficits as Good for the Economy, Political Class Disagrees

70% Say Big Government and Big Business On the Same Team

Rassmusen has a whole list of reports showing that the American voter dissagrees with the political class - who wins...

First I would like to say thank you to everyone who replied and shared their thoughts. Even where there was evident disagreement as to how to fix the problems, it was still clear that the people here care about this country, agree that there are problems, and passionately want to fix the problem. If we could all get on the same page as to how to do that (and I am not suggesting that we actually can, that might just be too much of a pipe dream) there would be no stopping us.

I appreciate the information links, thank you to those who posted them.

Also, I was very much struck by the cage analogy. I have seen this country change in my lifetime, and when I think back to the stories by parents and grandparents told of their childhood, it is even clearer that things have shifted rather drastically and with an ever increasing speed.

I don't have the answers. I will not even pretend that I do. But I really do appreciate your thoughts as I try to muddle my way through to the next election and hope that our votes do matter and as I try to take that responsibility seriously and vote well.

Also, despite your divergent views, if the entire country was as aware of political events and their meaning as the people on ATS and who responded to this thread I think we would be a lot better off.

Bravo to all of you.