A Civil Discourse for the 2012 Presidential Election

So, I will confess. I am disallusioned, hesitant, and unsure. I have friends across the political spectrum but talking politics is really so difficult lately, people get so up in arms. So, I propose that we here share our views and questions across a wide range of candidates and concerns. I have not fully settled on a candidate yet and so my vote at least is still available to be swayed. If you want to know how greatly the pendulum of my thinking swings these days then you should know that as of now (provdied both choices available) I lean toward either Ron Paul or Obama. Yes, you read that correctly.
I have always been a Republican but the party has left me cold these past few years. I voted for Obama in 2008 but I don't feel like the job is getting done. The newly elected Republicans frighten me. Their ideas for fiscal responsibility make me feel like a new era of Oliver Twist like abandonment is almost upon us. I would keep a Dem as POTUS to keep them in check. Despite years of hating H. Clinton, I would take her over Obama because, though I voted for him, I am concerned about just how much of his past is hidden. I am not exactly a birther, more of a confused and concerned citizen. And no, he doesn't have to share everything. But there do seem to be some striking omissions, etc. And, before people go all "oh you racist birther" on me I already told you I voted for him. And, I am not opposed to national health care. I think social security and medicare must be saved. We already have fewere social safety nets and perks then the rest of the developed world.
Okay, now for the other half of my brain...
The European countries largely can't pay for their social services either. We can't try to step in now during the lean years and suddenly increase the social services we offer just as others are finally realizing that they have to pull back Life is hard. Make better decisions. (ouch, I sound cruel) We have drifted as a country very far away from what I believe our core operating principles are supposed to be. The federal government has over reached time after time after time. And, it's time for it to stop. Ron Paul is willing to follow his principles through to their logical conclusion, even when he doesn't like some of the end results. Example being his belief that the FEDERAL government shouldn't get to tell you not to use drugs. He hopes you don't start shooting heroin but that decision is really more between you and your state. That matters to be because I feel like Congress, the Supreme Court, and the Executive Branch have taken on far more control over our lives than I think they should have. I am fairly certaint that Paul would do away with programs that I think matter which are overseen at a federal level. That makes me nervous and makes me think I would regret putting him in. Then I think that our system has become poisoned and maybe we have to kind of reset, including losing things I consider important because they are too entwined in the festering wounds of what our system has become to save them now. Now we have to worry about restoring our constitutional republic. We can sort more out later. And yes, that means giving stuff up for the time being.
So, see, I am really open to all comers. On a personal level I am big on job creation but I can't help but feel that a small group of elites that control our corporate world also have a good chunk of government in their pocket. I am interested in the economy both nationally and globally. I am interested in considering the role that the U.S. should play in the world and consider that as an important piece to "my candidate" I know why we have been running around all over the world, I am curious about whether that actually best serves our people or fits our supposed form of government.
I would ask that all who take part in this discussion truly be civil. Share you point of view. Ask questions about others points of view but lets not belittle each other. And, let us also not be so quick to take affront. If there is a conspiracy afoot to destroy this country, to usher in a NWO, to have the corporate elites run everything, or to see anarchy in the streets: if you believe in any conspiracy aimed at taking down this "once great"(?) nation, then understand that they must turn us against each other first. And, the heat of political conversation across the past couple of years feels like that has largely happened. So, I cordially invite each of you to pull up a chair and a keyboard and share your thoughts. And, given that this country is democratic in nature, all comers are welcome. I don't care if you dropped out school in the 4th grade. You get to vote which means your point of view matters. Your feelings matter. And, I would like the opportunity to hear your thoughts and ideas on how we can truly make this country great again.
So, plead your candiate.
Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

There is no philosophy here
Just vote for Ron Paul ...he is the only hope left for US and the World

Can't have a civil discourse when the Obama supporters will never admit he is a complete mess.
You just have to beat them and drag them kicking and screaming into prosperity.

Originally posted by i am just saying
Can't have a civil discourse when the Obama supporters will never admit he is a complete mess.
You just have to beat them and drag them kicking and screaming into prosperity.

Fringe conservatives like you are the only ones who make this stupid claim that anyone who supports Obama thinks he is perfect. Just like the birther mythos, you repeat an utter lie enough times to yourself you begin to think it is reality.

If you were actually in tune to what "Obama supporters" thought, you would know that by far most of us realize he is too corporatist and hasn't done enough to help the middle class. The alternative though are a bunch of nutcases that believe decimating the weakest members of society and letting our nation's infrastructure crumble while they sell its assets off to profiteers is the right thing to do. Because as you know, if you cut taxes and move wealth up to the top 2% of the population that already controls 98% of our wealth, everyone will benefit? Right.

Also, when you childishly claim "Obama supporters" are incapable of civil discourse and then immediately follow that statement with "so you have to beat them and drag them kicking and screaming into prosperity" you look, well, a little less than rational.

But I seriously doubt you actually care about civility or discourse. It's obvious from your posting that you have an agenda.

Just to get this straight. . .
Complaints.

Conservatives; Obama, progressive big-spending liberal who wants the government to control all of us.

Liberal; Obama is a shill for corporations, doesn't tax the rich enough and needs to do more to take care of us.

Am I close?

reply to post by xavi1000

You make some great, honest points from either 'side' of the isle and spectrum, OP.

US political madness (the actuality, not the forum) is to divide us in to camps. You seem to illustrate where I suspect most Americans stand, which is somewhere in the middle. You support Social Security and Health care, but also acknowledge that government does not have a very good history of managing these things. You point out that government oversight into our lives can be annoying and even repressive, but point out that without regulatory mechanisms, we would live in an even more corporate-controlled world.

All great points. S and F.

Many on here continue to spread the partisan meme that one party is the cause of all ills of everything and the other the savior. Code words like prosperity are telling. It will get even worse as the elections season ramps up.
Watching the GOP eat their tail, as their followers try and find a candidate they like, while their party intentionally tries to avoid winning the WH. I feel bad for Ron Paul. He appears to be the only member of that party who actually holds the principles they all claim.

Then there's the poor Democrats. How many people who are registered D's support the positions taken by their elected congressmen? You have the vast majority of Dem voters wanting single payer health reform, and yet it was the Dems in congress who prevented it from occurring. The same goes for most of their votes back in 03 for the invasion of iraq.

It's hard to take anyone who supports either 'side' unquestioningly seriously.

I suspect the real solutions are where they always have been. at the local level. We can affect and effect our local government more than our federal, which is obviously well-controlled by the global corporate agenda. But it would appear we still have to TRY and change the federal system as well. Which is often merely frustrating and dis-empowering.

It is clear we are heading for more of the same. A continued consolidation of corporate power, mixed with a the ongoing struggle between those who wish individual nations to be free to do as they please throughout the world vs. those who wish there to be some semblance of rules of engagement. The former being the way the world has been for centuries, shaped by a few european powers, vs those who wish to institute and enforce some kind of world rule that gives equal footing to the more maligned and oppressed regions of the world like S. America, Africa, Asia, etc.

All great points on your part, OP. Thanks for the attempt at enlightening discussion.

OP, the time is long past for civil discourse. I wish we'd have a cage match, two enter; one leaves.

How can you have a civil discourse when the president says, "Get over it, I won."

It reminds me of the saying that when one political side is losing, they will always ask for bi-partisanship.

We need to stop being so nice, so damned polite. We ned to call it what it is. This is for the future of the country. It is snking faster than Gary Busey on Jeopardy.

Nice guys finish last. So do nice poliicians.

Originally posted by beezzer
OP, the time is long past for civil discourse. I wish we'd have a cage match, two enter; one leaves.

How can you have a civil discourse when the president says, "Get over it, I won."

It reminds me of the saying that when one political side is losing, they will always ask for bi-partisanship.

We need to stop being so nice, so damned polite. We ned to call it what it is. This is for the future of the country. It is snking faster than Gary Busey on Jeopardy.

Nice guys finish last. So do nice poliicians.

You think the best way to run a country is a cage match? I mean, even figuratively? I'm pretty sure we all have FAR more in common than we have in opposition. Fighting helps no one but the vultures waiting in the wings. We are all on the same land, drinking the same water, breathing the same air. We have the same interests. We are on the same team.

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


It's not the big things that divide us. It's the small things that we will not compromise on.

Being nice, compromising, negotiating, and you'll lose. Negotiation is just another way of making time while your enemy reloads. What "values" are you willing to compromise on? What "values" are you willing to give up to keep the peace? What "values" are you going to ask me to give up?

It's not so easy then.

reply to post by watcher3339


Good luck on your quest for a civil, intelligent conversation on these points. It could happen.

I am not now and never have been associated with any political party. None of them are worthy of my support. Individuals can and sometimes have been.

I voted for Obama in 2008. There is no argument that I wish he had changed more, faster, than he has. But I also remember, as so few seem to, what a complete mess he inherited when he took office. He is by no means perfect, not even close, but he is orders of magnitude better than the previous regime, and orders of magnitude better than the other choices at the time.

Given the current crop of other choices, Obama will again be getting my vote in 2012. That is not guaranteed, if somebody I think will do better comes along, she or he will get my vote.

But the current Republican candidates or possibles are, in my opinion, total shills, and far too anti-freedom for my taste. They are too interested in their corporate masters, and making sure the whole country adheres to their religious views.

The Republican talk of cutting spending is unchanged from previous rounds. "Cutting spending" in Republican-speak, means going after the thousands of dollars wasted or defrauded from things like Welfare and Medicare (programs used by the poor) and totally ignoring the billions of dollars wasted or defrauded from things like gov't subsidies to the petro-chemical, agricultural, beef growing and "defense" industries (programs used by the rich).

I had some hope that the Tea Party would be serious about cutting spending, but so far (and I have not researched it exhaustively yet) I've not heard much from them either... they are also focused on the thousands and ignoring the billions.

At this stage of US history, I'm not at all sure we can pull out without actually hitting bottom. The sound-byte mentality, binary thinking mentality, with its concommittant inability to even acknowledge the validity of different viewpoints is, I'm afraid, too entrenched. There are still too many people who grab the talking points and do not put any thought into them.

One thing I feel safe in predicting - the 2012 election cycle will be a circuis like no other!

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

It's not the big things that divide us. It's the small things that we will not compromise on.

Being nice, compromising, negotiating, and you'll lose. Negotiation is just another way of making time while your enemy reloads. What "values" are you willing to compromise on? What "values" are you willing to give up to keep the peace? What "values" are you going to ask me to give up?

It's not so easy then.

If all we have are 'little differences' then how are we 'enemies'?

You appear to use a lot of aggressive analogies to illustrate your point. Is it always an armed cage match in your mind?

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


What would you give up, what would you concede for harmony? It's nice to talk in the abstract, but we are no longer an American society. We are an entitlement society.

What would you concede to the conservatives in order for harmony and peace to be reached?

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

What would you give up, what would you concede for harmony? It's nice to talk in the abstract, but we are no longer an American society. We are an entitlement society.

What would you concede to the conservatives in order for harmony and peace to be reached?

What is it that you need me to concede?. You speak of specifics, lets be specific. (Setting aside for now why you think i only need to 'concede' to 'conservatives')

reply to post by incrediblelousminds


I'll play.
Everyone has to give up abortion and we'll say okay to "limited" Obama-style healthcare.
Do a flat-tax of 7% for everyone an we'll end the wars.
Eliminate the silly gun laws and we'll invest more into green energy solutions.

See? Compromise.

reply to post by watcher3339


You really have to actually look at what has been going on. Is it social services or a CAGE to trap and "domesticate us into serfdom" ????

I am old enough to remember the same years that Ron Paul does.

Do you really think there was No "Safety Net" back in those "Dark Ages" ??? The safety net was there. The town Doctor and Dentist provide free medical or reduced rate to those who could not afford it - it is now illegal to do so. The county had a "Home" or Farm where those in trouble or vagrants were housed. Churches ran shelters or fund drives.

THERE WERE NO STREET PEOPLE! The governmentMUST have street people to continue pushing for the cage. Also the US incarceration rate has sky rocketed until now 1 in four adults in the USA has a record.

More important there was OPPORTUNITY! You could cut lawns, baby sit, take in ironing or sewing, clean houses. You did not need a half dozen permits and an insurance company skimming 10 to 20% of the gross.

One by one these alternate sources of income, available to anyone with a couple of words of English, have been shutdown through over regulation. Within the last fifteen years the "Independant Consultant" has been wiped out. Now Kelly Temp is the larges employer in the USA and is skimming half to two thirds or more of the hourly wage for the "service" of placing you.

Now with the Food Safety Modernization act the last door is being slammed in the face of "Free Americans" We will now be wage slaves to a corporation or subject to the petty whims of a little Hitler who can bankrupt you if he doesn't like the look of your face or if a large corporation wants your land, business or patents at fire sale prices.

Looking back over fifty years I can see we have traded our freedom for the "safety" of the cage called "social services and government regulation.

The thread Family Facing #4 million in fines for selling bunnies shows exactly what is meant by "We are here from the government...."[/b]

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by incrediblelousminds

 

I'll play.
Everyone has to give up abortion and we'll say okay to "limited" Obama-style healthcare.
Do a flat-tax of 7% for everyone an we'll end the wars.
Eliminate the silly gun laws and we'll invest more into green energy solutions.

See? Compromise.

This is the point I'm trying to make. If you (or the other side) doesn't agree, then I get to call you anti-healthcare, pro-war, and anti-environment.
This is how the game is played.
It is not nice. Asking for "civil" discourse will get your throat cut in this game. "They" hope that you will be nice. It makes it easier for them to rip you to shreds.

That's the first lesson in politics.

reply to post by beezzer

Just to get this straight. . .
Complaints.

Conservatives; Obama, progressive big-spending liberal who wants the government to control all of us.

Liberal; Obama is a shill for corporations, doesn't tax the rich enough and needs to do more to take care of us.

Am I close?

You forgot one

CENTRALIST: Can not stand Bush OR Obama because they both have the same agenda, trampling the little guy who only wants to make a decent living.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by beezzer

 

Just to get this straight. . .
Complaints.

Conservatives; Obama, progressive big-spending liberal who wants the government to control all of us.

Liberal; Obama is a shill for corporations, doesn't tax the rich enough and needs to do more to take care of us.

Am I close?

You forgot one

CENTRALIST: Can not stand Bush OR Obama because they both have the same agenda, trampling the little guy who only wants to make a decent living.

The tricky part about beinga centrist is that when you walk in the middle of the street, instead of the left or the right; you usually get run over.

reply to post by beezzer

It is not nice. Asking for "civil" discourse will get your throat cut in this game. "They" hope that you will be nice. It makes it easier for them to rip you to shreds.

That's the first lesson in politics.

The second lesson is to LIE

and the third lesson is to throw MUD