Seriously, is there any logical argument against gay marriage?

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Helious
Yes, you are, because you are not using basic common sense to form any of your statements, much less fact.

Yes, you do have an agenda because if you simply wanted equal rights under law which you so frequently quote you wouldn't have an obsession on what that law was called.

Any person who views your posts can see that, it takes no special skill as you are not that apt at hiding it.

Is this your line of defense because my viewpoint doesn't agree with you?

I've been doing this (forums) for more then 15 years - - - starting with ICQ.

ANY Emotion you read from a post - - - comes from yourself. If you are reading emotions in a post - - they are your own.

My posts are short and to the point. If there is room for emotions in my style of posting - - I think they are hiding behind the "W" - - or maybe the "X".

My line of defense is fact and basic common sense, neither of which you have been able to coral to your side of the argument.

Great, thats 15 years you have wasted with conjecture and wishful thinking, hope you didn't quit your day job.

I have no emotions about this subject, my disgust is produced by you and people like you deforming social standards through half truths and an attempt to fool people through perceived guilt about persecution that does not take place.

If I had a fancy to choke girls while I violated them and they liked it, that would be called a fetish. If that is the case, what right do I have to scream from every roof top I like to do that and then demand that all of society accept it and not ridicule me because of it?

We can play that game all day long, nobody wants to see me choke and violate my girlfriend and guess what? Much to your surprise, nobody wants to hear about what you do behind closed doors either, moreover, nobody cares why you think you should have the right that other people don't. All people care about is that you hush up and act like everyone else, kiss, hug, hold hands, form a government installed union, whatever, just stop trying to push the agenda because it's offensive.

reply to post by quietlearner


First off - - gays are as diverse as humanity itself. They are NOT a Group think. They have one thing in common - - attraction to same gender.

Not all gays support gay marriage. Not all gays care about political equality.

Do they want to be socially accepted? Some do - - mostly they don't want to fear for their lives.

Do they want to be straight and consider themselves freaks? Most don't after they accept themselves.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If the high number is 10% of the population - - - and many gays have no interest in Marriage Equality or any other political activism - - - - just who do you think is fighting this fight?

reply to post by Helious


Why do you think they want more rights? They want to only have the same right as we heterosexuals already have - possibility to have a partnership with those who we are sexually attracted to registered by the state. So it depends on how do you formulate it.

Now I dont agree wit the state regulating marriage at all (only parenthood), but if it does it, then it should not discriminate.

Even if we agreed they want to have more rights, I cant see why do you have problem with it, since they are different. Its like saying disabled people should not demand the state to accomodate for their disability (barrier free buildings, assistance, benefits etc.). Should disabled people also be treated as fully normal people?

Originally posted by Helious
My line of defense is fact and basic common sense, neither of which you have been able to coral to your side of the argument.

You actually have no argument.

Common sense? How is your viewpoint common sense?

Common sense is: Gay Marriage has been accepted in various countries around the world - - - and it is only a matter of time before it becomes legal in most states in America.

You have an archaic position you stubbornly want to stand strong on - - - but that's about it.

Originally posted by Helious

Originally posted by GringoViejo

Originally posted by Helious
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

You speak to reading comprehension yet you in fact seem to have none. My religion? What exactly is my religion? Have I mentioned that at all in any of my posts? Do I have one? Or is it that fact are facts regardless of what I believe?

Well forgive me for assuming such ignorance was based in some sort of religion.

You keep alluding to the word marriage being reserved for religious traditions, whatever they may be. I am sorry to inform you that this particular view has no effect on reality.

I really enjoy that gays getting married and using the word marriage (which is accurate) infuriates you

So, in reality please show me since you assert such that the word marriage is derived from a source that is neutral to religion. Please provide me one example where the state has evoked the ceremony before religion had adopted and controlled it.

Please educate me on your expansive knowledge of the situation because as you would wage, I am ignorant of the situation and the meaning of the word. Educate me, I beg you!

edit on 22-5-2011 by Helious because: (no reason given)

The origin has no significance on the current definition.

The reality is your opinion is meaningless when it comes two people, neither of which being you, getting married and calling it as such.

But please continue, you are very amusing

Originally posted by Helious
Your sexual preference is of no concern to the rest of civilized society and your force feeding of what you prefer in the bedroom will never be accepted in the main stream because sexual preference has no relevance in the real world outside of your longing to be accepted as normal.

I just celebrated my 22nd wedding anniversary to a man 21 years younger then me.

Cougar Awesome sexual preference

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Helious
Your sexual preference is of no concern to the rest of civilized society and your force feeding of what you prefer in the bedroom will never be accepted in the main stream because sexual preference has no relevance in the real world outside of your longing to be accepted as normal.

I just celebrated my 22nd wedding anniversary to a man 21 years younger then me.

Cougar

Awesome sexual preference

Somewhere in some obscure verse in some holy book, you are going to hell.

The book is really old too... so I'm right

Annee

I just celebrated my 22nd wedding anniversary to a man 21 years younger then me.

Cougar

Awesome sexual preference

GringoViejo

Somewhere in some obscure verse in some holy book, you are going to hell.

The book is really old too... so I'm right

Ok by me.

Gays throw the most Awesome parties.

Originally posted by quietlearner

1. the meaning of words change with how they are used in society

Latest polls show 51% support Gay Marriage.

2. society controls the meaning of words

Latest polls show 51% support Gay Marriage.

3. if society does not accept that word A means B then word A does not mean B

Latest polls show 51% support Gay Marriage.

4. society does not accept gay unions as traditional marriages

Any terminology other then Marriage denotes 2nd class. Only full equality will provide full equality.

5. if society does not accept that gay unions means traditional marriage then gay union does not mean traditional marriage

Exactly why only Marriage is acceptable.

therefore it would be incorrect to call gay unions the same as traditional marriages

No - it wouldn't. Only full Equality is acceptable.

I'm old enough to have gone through the Civil Rights Movement. A bunch of nonsense excuses then - - - just like a bunch of nonsense excuses now.

reply to post by JR MacBeth


Yeah, I came to understand what it was during my drive home earlier. The subject is logic of argument, and I also believe you're right that all the points were logical. In such a playground, those are the rules.

I just wanted to place my investment into the equation.

Originally posted by Annee

Latest polls show 51% support Gay Marriage.

just because a poll somewhere shows 51% of the surveyed agreed on gay marriage does not mean it is accepted by society. if gay marriage was accepted by society then we wouldn't be having this discussion and gays would already be accepted by society.
the op asked for a logical argument and I presented some
the claims i made are perfectly logical

Originally posted by Annee

1. the union of a woman and a man is not the same as a union between same sex partners

Why isn't it - - today - - in this modern world?

2. there are two different types of unions

Which are?

3. different things are by definition not the same

Which means what?

4. therefore it is not the same and should not be called the same

That is an excuse.

Annee, you are not supposed to go to point#2 if you cannot accept point#1. this is logical thinking. if you cannot accept point#1, then you have to present a reason why you say that it is illogical to think that way. it is obvious in many aspects that a union between man and woman is different from a union between man and man. yes there was a time when we say a black is different from a white but the difference is only superficial. the differences between these two types of unions however are very critical.

i see more maturity in quitelearner's arguments.

Originally posted by quietlearner

Originally posted by Annee

Latest polls show 51% support Gay Marriage.

just because a poll somewhere shows 51% of the surveyed agreed on gay marriage does not mean it is accepted by society. if gay marriage was accepted by society then we wouldn't be having this discussion and gays would already be accepted by society.
the op asked for a logical argument and I presented some
the claims i made are perfectly logical

edit on 23-5-2011 by quietlearner because: grammar

Gay people are already accepted by society, at least here. I'm not sure what part of the world you live in but I would be disturbed if it was a first world country. Except the USA - there seems to be a lot of christians there who refuse to try adn understand. Fair enough I suppose, if they're happy being dictated to rather than thinking for themselves but it's unfortunate for others.

Originally posted by steve95988
reply to post by hotbakedtater

 

I am sorry but its wrong,! In a nation that had God on all their money, in a nation that says one nation under God, how can we be so idiotic>??!! If we believe in God being gay is one of the worst sins there is!! Its wrong its disgusting its a thing called to much freedom!1 This country should have limits! Gays should be burned or thrown in prison period!!

You seem to forget that this country also leaves religion out of the thought process when making laws simply to keep blind ignorance and hate out. I'm sure everyone would agree to the burning though just as long as everyone that thinks like you goes first. Too much freedom? One can only dream.

First of all everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that but as a gay man I have to put my two cents in.

Gay marriage would not change anything in this country and it wouldn't hurt the marriage establishment one bit. This is not a political agenda as much as it is a religious agenda. I was brought up in the Pentecostal religion as a preacher's kid. I was taught my whole life that being gay was wrong, yet I had these feelings and no amount of praying or therapy helped with what I was dealing with. I even contemplated suicide because of what I was taught in church and by my parents. The only thing that pulled me out of this dark depression was just accepting it and coming out to friends and family. As hard as it was it was the best decision I had ever made. I am happier knowing that I am who am I and that God (or whatever you want to call it) made me this way.

Now as for the subject of gay marriage. It is not to rub it in people's faces that we're here and we're queer, it's all about equality. To say that gay people such as myself can't get married because its wrong is like what happened with the African American community when they were told to go to their own schools and that they weren't equal with the white community. It's a new form of segregation and in my opinion it is downright wrong, but then again its my opinion and not just because I'm gay. If I had been born straight I know in the bottom of my heart that I would feel the same way.

Also marriage is not just a Christian concept as all religions have their own form of marriage that even pre-date Christianity. The Pagan's call it Handfasting. While on the subject many Pagans, even those predating Christianity, have held homosexuals in high rank as they have both male and female aspects.

I would also like to point out that Soddom and Gomorah in the Bible was not a city filled with homosexuals. It was a city that was filled with sin of all kinds. Even sex between a man and a woman can be considered a sin in many ways. That city was filled with rape, incest and other horrible acts yet people seem to concentrate on the homosexual end of it and proclaim it to be wrong from that alone.

In my opinion, not as a gay man but as a human being, there is no valid reason to not allow gay marriage. And to say that a valid reason is "its wrong, that's why" is absolutely absurd in my eyes. Again this follows the religious side of it and last I checked it's supposed to be "separation between church and state".

Again my opinion...

Originally posted by shanerz
reply to post by JR MacBeth

 

Yeah, I came to understand what it was during my drive home earlier. The subject is logic of argument, and I also believe you're right that all the points were logical. In such a playground, those are the rules.

I just wanted to place my investment into the equation.

I very much appreciate your reply. You are a rare person these days who can get past all the political noise we are all subjected to.

As far as your investment, I believe you can see the fruits of it, since your response is right about when things began turning around on this thread, raising the quality substantially, IMO. Things have to be more than just our opinions sometimes.

Again, my hat is of to you. Great points on both sides of this discussion being made, and it's people like you who help raise the bar.

JR

Originally posted by quietlearner

Originally posted by Annee

Latest polls show 51% support Gay Marriage.

just because a poll somewhere shows 51% of the surveyed agreed on gay marriage does not mean it is accepted by society. if gay marriage was accepted by society then we wouldn't be having this discussion and gays would already be accepted by society.
the op asked for a logical argument and I presented some
the claims i made are perfectly logical

The point is that acceptance of Gays and Gay marriage has increased rapidly the last few years.

Which means the majority of society now supports the right of Gays to Marry.

This IS a logical rebuttal position to your own argument.

And you still refuse to accept it.

Originally posted by pendekar
Annee, you are not supposed to go to point#2 if you cannot accept point#1. this is logical thinking. if you cannot accept point#1, then you have to present a reason why you say that it is illogical to think that way. it is obvious in many aspects that a union between man and woman is different from a union between man and man. yes there was a time when we say a black is different from a white but the difference is only superficial. the differences between these two types of unions however are very critical.

i see more maturity in quitelearner's arguments.

Excuses. All you present is excuses.

In LEGAL Marriage there is no difference in genders marrying. LEGAL Marriage is a government contract to protect rights and property - - and to afford other benefits.

Gays Marrying with a LEGAL government contract affects no one on a social level. Because these same Gays have already been living as couples in society since the beginning of time.

You want Logic - - - there is your Logic.

Gays are already living as couples/families in society. Gays marrying changes nothing in society. All it does is give them the same Legal benefits as other couples/families.

Emotions because someone feels hurt by the use of a word - - - is not logic.

Majority trying to deny Equal Rights to a minority is about Control - - - - no matter what excuse they choose to use.

Originally posted by Garfee
Except the USA - there seems to be a lot of Christians there who refuse to try and understand. Fair enough I suppose, if they're happy being dictated to rather than thinking for themselves but it's unfortunate for others.

Fortunately - Atheism is on the rise.

Breaking the Puritan mentality hold on America is an ongoing fight.

To add to the discussion on society acceptance:

Focus on the Family Leader Sees Likely Loss on Marriage

By Advocate.com Editors

Jim Daly, the president and CEO of Focus on the Family, which funds attacks against marriage equality across the country, concedes in a new interview that his side has “probably lost” on the issue.

Good As You reports on the comments from Daly in an interview for the June 4 issue of World Magazine. He attributes the losing battle to changing attitudes among young people.

“We're losing on that one, especially among the 20- and 30-somethings: 65 to 70 percent of them favor same-sex marriage,” says Daly in the interview. “I don't know if that's going to change with a little more age—demographers would say probably not. We've probably lost that.”

advocate.com...