Are there any "Good" elites?

Originally posted by CIAGypsy

Nice sidestep.

Its not a sidestep. Its a fact. You dont seem like the kind of person who will do more than simply reinforce your own bias. Like your internet example. "Innovation" and "hard work" are obviously not the same thing. "Hard work" can be done by anyone. Not everyone is going to innovate, no matter how hard they work.

Im trained in argument. Im very capable of evaluating the intellect and style and fallacies used by opponents or potential opponents. I know a lost cause when I see one.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
Read it. In fact, it was REQUIRED READING when I was in primary school.

Then read it for comprehension this time.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
Shows what little you know about the business and finance world. I guarantee you that corporations would LOVE less regulation.... How do I know? Because I see them fight these battles with lobbyists every single day. Perhaps you should go sit in DC for 6 months to get a grip on reality....

Bullsnip. You show me any wealthy person anywhere arguing against property laws. What? They arent? In fact they are making them more and more stringent and expanding them at a rapid clip to include all sort of intellectual property they steal from others? YOU need to get a grip on reality. The "elite" are even trying to expand property laws to include natural things like the genomes of existing plants, and Bechtel tried to privatize rainwater for christsake.

You have no idea what you are talking about because you cant see past your own bias. The "elite" LOVE laws. They are responsible for most of them. Especially those laws that allow them to use physical force to seize assets, but then criminalize the poor for using physical force for trying to seize them back.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
How would you feel sending your beloved child off to Afghanistan because someone else decided for you, based upon what THEY think is "fair"?

That happens to the poor around the world all the time. How often are the rich conscripted? How often do economic interests go after the resources of the poor and wage war upon civilians to get it, even though officially they are not drafted or conscripted? Ask the Iraqis. The Afghanistanis. The Bolivians. Various other South Americans. The Nigerians. The Sudanese. The Libyans. The Native Americans. The native Hawaiians. And those are just the more recent examples. Go further back in time and ask the Scots and the Irish. Go further back and ask the English.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
Highly presumptive to assume ANYONE has "cheated" to accumulate their wealth. Sounds like class envy to me. A bitter bottom-feeder who, instead of focusing on themselves and what they can do to advance themselves, says "I can't go ANYWHERE because the deck is stacked against me...." Thousands of others are proving you wrong every day. You have more opportunity to advance yourself TODAY than ever before in history!

Sounds like pathetic name calling to me, from someone who cannot use example to prove their argument. Hawaii was seized by a group of wealthy business people from America and Europe with the aid and compliance of the US government. Most of the US was seized from the Natives under similar circumstances. Wealthy aristocratic families hired armies to subdue peoples and seize their resources and even ownership of the people themselves. Whole nations are seized illegally, governments are bought and bribed, all to steal the resources that naturally belong to the people of those nations, and then laws are written to make it impossible for those people to use the same methods to get them back.

Somehow, like many spoiled rich people, you think that killing thousands of people to rob them isnt a commission of a crime, but heaven forbid one person kill you to rob you. Hypocrite.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Its not a sidestep. Its a fact. You dont seem like the kind of person who will do more than simply reinforce your own bias. Like your internet example. "Innovation" and "hard work" are obviously not the same thing. "Hard work" can be done by anyone. Not everyone is going to innovate, no matter how hard they work.

Nice attempt at manipulating my words. I never made any determination between innovation and hard work in reference to the working class or the rich. I simply said that the poor have just as much opportunity to advance their financial status and illustrated how some have done so through the dot-com boom. Are you inferring that their achievement is somehow less valuable because they did so through innovation rather than hard work? I've seen them do the same thing through real estate and commodities markets. These are people who were born poor, studied & observed, and then applied the principles of their knowledge to earn millions. They worked for it, even if it wasn't physical toil. They took the risk. They enjoy the reward. Simple enough concept.

Now, if you aren't smart enough to figure out how to do that....well, we can't all be chiefs can we? Humans are pack animals. They follow an alpha. You may not like it, but that isn't going to change nature.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Im trained in argument. Im very capable of evaluating the intellect and style and fallacies used by opponents or potential opponents. I know a lost cause when I see one.

Then your arrogance already makes YOU a lost cause. C'est la vie....

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Then read it for comprehension this time.

Well, aren't you the little comedian! Thanks for the chuckle. Somehow I bet I could hand you your a$$ in Jeopardy round specifically on Philosophy, and especially Plato. Understanding the masters was not taken lightly in my household and education.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Bullsnip. You show me any wealthy person anywhere arguing against property laws. What? They arent? In fact they are making them more and more stringent and expanding them at a rapid clip to include all sort of intellectual property they steal from others? YOU need to get a grip on reality. The "elite" are even trying to expand property laws to include natural things like the genomes of existing plants, and Bechtel tried to privatize rainwater for christsake.

You have no idea what you are talking about because you cant see past your own bias. The "elite" LOVE laws. They are responsible for most of them. Especially those laws that allow them to use physical force to seize assets, but then criminalize the poor for using physical force for trying to seize them back.

I don't know what planet YOU live on, but its obvious that you don't attend the same dinner parties that I do. There are factions that push for a full government take-over and push us close (or more into) a fascist state. However, there are just as many on the other side who abhor the thought and push for less regulation. I see it everyday and its gone on for decades. Comes and goes with the tides.

What your limited education may have failed to teach you is that there is a natural lifecycle to all civilizations, including our current one. Every race of people have been subjugated by another at some point in history. Every group of "powerful" and "powerless" have swapped the titles of "master" and "slave." So just because you think that the Rockefellers or Rothschilds are out to get you today, step back and realize that they haven't ALWAYS been wealthy or powerful. THAT is fact.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
That happens to the poor around the world all the time. How often are the rich conscripted? How often do economic interests go after the resources of the poor and wage war upon civilians to get it, even though officially they are not drafted or conscripted? Ask the Iraqis. The Afghanistanis. The Bolivians. Various other South Americans. The Nigerians. The Sudanese. The Libyans. The Native Americans. The native Hawaiians. And those are just the more recent examples. Go further back in time and ask the Scots and the Irish. Go further back and ask the English.

Again, see above. history is naturally written by the victors. No race is exempt from its struggles against its own kind or another. It is the natural cycle of human evolution.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Sounds like pathetic name calling to me, from someone who cannot use example to prove their argument. Hawaii was seized by a group of wealthy business people from America and Europe with the aid and compliance of the US government. Most of the US was seized from the Natives under similar circumstances. Wealthy aristocratic families hired armies to subdue peoples and seize their resources and even ownership of the people themselves. Whole nations are seized illegally, governments are bought and bribed, all to steal the resources that naturally belong to the people of those nations, and then laws are written to make it impossible for those people to use the same methods to get them back.

Somehow, like many spoiled rich people, you think that killing thousands of people to rob them isnt a commission of a crime, but heaven forbid one person kill you to rob you. Hypocrite.

Blah blah blah....

I'd hate to think how many trees were chopped down to supply the energy you wasted on this post.

It is obvious you are entrenched in your hatred and anger toward the upper class. Sorry you feel somehow "slighted" that we aren't doing enough to give you what you think you are owed. My advice is to pull up your big boy britches and start working to make a difference in your own status rather than blustering on about what others are or aren't doing.

Originally posted by JonInMichigan
Watch the movie The One Percent (it's available for streaming on NetFlix). I was bored and watched it a few weeks ago. It was made by Jamie Johnson, heir to the Johnson and Johnson family fortune.

The One Percent (Wiki article)

He is an anti-elite and interviews many kids of very high wealth (top one percent), who voluntarily gave up their fortunes because they despised their wealth and how that segment of society acts.

So, to answer your question, yes, there are good elites out there!!!! I never would have thought so until I watched this eye opening documentary.

edit on 16-5-2011 by JonInMichigan because: typo

I believe what you've quoted here,though I haven't seen the documentary,it makes sense to a degree.

I also think the elite, like to feel like they do good,and I'm sure they do some...through their various charities ,etc.
(also believe many charities are just covers for funneling funds)

From what I understand of some of their spiritual beliefs, they like to balance things out.

But...I am far from being an expert on the topic..just my guess that they do at times do some good things .

reply to post by CIAGypsy


I don't think he has envy towards the upper class, and many who have loads of money only have it ,because their families were wealthy,and paid for educations,as well as had many contacts in different fields for their children to get the "top" jobs.

Yes,people can make money on their own,and some do it with honesty and integrity .

But its safe to say,that families , with power and wealth behind them,can help their children rise to the top with much greater ease.

reply to post by vagabond50


Largest donations in history by U.S. wealthy, from Fortune website:

Warren Buffett $30 BILLION in 2006

Bill Gates $11 BILLION in 1999

William Hewlett $6 BILLION in 2001

Gordon & Betty Moore $5 BILLION in 2000

and the list goes on and on. There are are buttload of well-to-do people that share what they have with others. Considering most everyday malcontents won't even cross the road to help their neighbor these days, I have to say America has some wonderfully generous people, regardless of how you choose to label them.

Originally posted by gabby2011
reply to post by CIAGypsy

 

I don't think he has envy towards the upper class, and many who have loads of money only have it ,because their families were wealthy,and paid for educations,as well as had many contacts in different fields for their children to get the "top" jobs.

Yes,people can make money on their own,and some do it with honesty and integrity .

But its safe to say,that families , with power and wealth behind them,can help their children rise to the top with much greater ease.

I spent a lot of time during my childhood in the midwest US between various cities. I loved ice hockey. I wanted to PLAY ice hockey. At that time, women weren't given the same opportunities as men. On top of that fact, I had a size issue. I am 5'7" tall and weigh about 115-120 lbs (depending on the time of the month...ha!). The men I played against were 5'10" to 6'2" and easily outweighed me by 50-100 lbs. When it came to a physical showdown, there was no contest. I simply could NOT compete against that. So if I wanted to be competitive, I had to learn to play SMARTER. I had to learn how to turn my disadvantages in my favor.

The lower and working class are no different. Of course it will be easier for the rich to use their resources...their advantages...to rise to the top. But it doesn't mean it has to STAY that way. And it is those people who learn and practice that lesson who rise to the top. And not ONE of them who succeeds complains that the deck has been stacked against them. And I also guarantee that not ONE of them would support the idea that all they have worked for should be "taken" from them and redistributed to the "less fortunate" because, after all, they *must* have "cheated" to get what they achieved. Sorry for the sarcasm, but that comment is so offensive to me that I could spit nails.

Originally posted by LargeFries
reply to post by vagabond50

 

Largest donations in history by U.S. wealthy, from Fortune website:

Warren Buffett $30 BILLION in 2006

Bill Gates $11 BILLION in 1999

William Hewlett $6 BILLION in 2001

Gordon & Betty Moore $5 BILLION in 2000

and the list goes on and on. There are are buttload of well-to-do people that share what they have with others. Considering most everyday malcontents won't even cross the road to help their neighbor these days, I have to say America has some wonderfully generous people, regardless of how you choose to label them.

I an all fairness you have to look closely at the organizations they give to,and what ulterior purposes are behind them..such as tax writeoff,and just money funneling.
But lets say they did give out of the goodness of their hearts.?? what percentage of their wealth was it?
Like a millionare giving 1000 bucks to a shelter?

CIA gypsey,you said something to the effect of the "new" rich not being able to hang on to their money,because they don't know how to make more.Maybe its because they don't have a greedy mindset,and became rich because they stumbled upon a great idea that took off. Not to mention they probably give much of it away,without concern about always making more.

Originally posted by gabby2011
CIA gypsey,you said something to the effect of the "new" rich not being able to hang on to their money,because they don't know how to make more.Maybe its because they don't have a greedy mindset,and became rich because they stumbled upon a great idea that took off. Not to mention they probably give much of it away,without concern about always making more.

Apologies, my new friend, but that's not typically what happens. I said they "lose it" because they don't understand how money works and they spend, spend, spend. The wealthy have resources long term because they understand the fundamentals of money. They understand the differences between assets and liabilities. For example, 99% of America would list their HOUSE as an asset. It isn't unless you own it 100% outright. If you have a mortgage, the bank owns it and you are not only trying to "buy it back" (i.e. a liability) but you are paying an interest rate that nearly doubles the actual cost of your home.

The wealthy learn how to make money without generally spending their own or they use a short term investment of resources for long term residual gains.

I think alot of them think they're doing the good thing. This happens alot when people are coerced to do evil things.

reply to post by vagabond50


Why do you call them 'Elite'? Don't you realise that all you are doing by calling them that, is subliminally lowering yourself. You are simply making them out to be something they are not.

As for enslaving. I would suggest you step back and take a look at the world around us. If you think you are free and not a slave, then I can only assume you don't have bills to pay, you have no mortgage, you don't have to work, you have more money than sense. Essentially you would be one of these 'Elite' if you think you are free.

Money is a slave system. We are born into slavery. Encouraged to go into debt so that we become a true slave.

Something to think about anyway.

st.

Originally posted by SatoriTheory
reply to post by vagabond50

 

Why do you call them 'Elite'? Don't you realise that all you are doing by calling them that, is subliminally lowering yourself. You are simply making them out to be something they are not.

I totally agree with and support this point!

Originally posted by SatoriTheory
reply to post by vagabond50

 

As for enslaving. I would suggest you step back and take a look at the world around us. If you think you are free and not a slave, then I can only assume you don't have bills to pay, you have no mortgage, you don't have to work, you have more money than sense. Essentially you would be one of these 'Elite' if you think you are free.

Money is a slave system. We are born into slavery. Encouraged to go into debt so that we become a true slave.

Something to think about anyway.

st.

Completely DISAGREE with this point. Here is where your post fell apart, IMHO. Money is not your enemy. Money is simply a tool. Learn the rules of the game and you won't be a slave to anyone.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy

Completely DISAGREE with this point. Here is where your post fell apart, IMHO. Money is not your enemy. Money is simply a tool. Learn the rules of the game and you won't be a slave to anyone.

Well in all fairness, my point didn't fall apart at all. In fact you have help to reinforce it by acknowledging 'the game'.
Why waste half your life trying to learn the rules of a pointless game, when you could in fact live a carefree life learning about more important and useful stuff?

Money is a tool, you are right, but its purpose is to keep some sort of slave/control system in effect. Hence, 'the game'.

The only reason anyone wants money, is be appear above/better than others. To appear of a 'higher class'. They 'fear' being equal to others.

Have another try!

They should have just let us destroy ourselves.

In my opinion there are no good Elites.

If you mean by elite just people with alot of money sure there's good people out there, if you mean TPTB by the means of the word elite then that's a whole nother issue.

Well it depends on your point of view. Unless you were at the wrong place at the wrong time, during a false flag operation or fell for some scam they orchestrated, or live in the wrong part of the world, your life is pretty darn sweet. Sure they live in big castles and drive cars that cost more than your house, but still, your life isnt all that bad. So it depends on who you are, kinda like with every person in power.

Getting the shop confiscated from the jew was a pretty sweet deal too.

Originally posted by Cassius666
Getting the shop confiscated from the jew was a pretty sweet deal too.

Errr.....what does this have to do with anything?

A Thread worth reading through!

I'm new here, this is my first post. My parents are what you would term "elites", and I've wondered about this stuff my whole life. I've been kept out of their affairs deliberately, so I have no idea how most of their world operates. They've always been cagey when I ask for information. I know that my grandfather and his brother "discovered" something, and all of a sudden they had untold resources. My father runs a venture capital firm for energy projects, or so I'm told.
I've always been different to them, and have suffered from mental illnesses since I was quite young, so they've kept me out of the inner loop. (My younger sister is kept in the loop, it's only me who they are secretive with.)
Despite all this, I don't think they're bad. They are philanthropic, generous, and mostly non jusdgemental. At various times, when I've felt neglected, I've wanted to believe that they're evil, but I don't think that it holds water.

a reply to: vagabond50

Are there any good Elites?

If you spot any let us know. We're still waiting for one to show up.