Roswell a 'Soviet plot to create panic in U.S: (Time to Deny Ignorance Or...)

Originally posted by anon72

Just Denying Ignorance.

Man I sure hope people find this thread before they consider buying this book.

Matter of fact, maybe the whole UFO community should go on a Frontal Assualt and totally discredit the thing even before it hits the bookshelves.

Maybe you should read the book before going on your "Frontal Assualt".

Originally posted by anon72
Honestly, I can't believe the woman even got someone to publish it.

In a book format anyway.

I bet you the book is about 10 pages long. I mean, what else can she go into?

Now that's Denying Ignorance!!

The book is 544 pages long, and the audio book is just over 16 hours.

reply to post by freelance_zenarchist


Have you listened to the interview with the author? You don't need to read the book to work out that, she has absolutely no grasp on any sort of basic level about what shes is writing about. Even given for nerves, what is quoted as *fact* is simply and provably wrong. It doesn't really matter how long the book is, when it based on such poor research and unnamed sources.

reply to post by FireMoon


History is written by the victors. Just look at any American history text and it's chopped full of falsehoods. Everyone has a price and considering how desperate Mengela was it surely was a cause for desperate measures. No one knows for sure what became of him after the war or the Horten bros. for that matter.

I do think her source needs to make himself known, of course, if anything is to come of this. But I don't think this is anymore outlandish than little green men from outer space. I mean come on, Stalin and the doctor of death were some sick puppies.

reply to post by kazanoom


Reima Horton tried to sell his services, first to Britain and then to China and was turned down by both, he then moved to Argentina where he designed an unsuccessful transport plane project. His brother stayed in Germany and became a ranking officer in the new Luftwaffe.

The Horton brothers were air frame designers they had absolutely no back ground in science or engineering past an amateur interest and a talent for design. They hand;t a clue about power plants/motors etc.

It took me all of 30 seconds to find this about them

www.nurflugel.com...

Here is the actual assessment by the British from 1945 of their work..

www.twitt.org...

Doctor Mengele only left Germany in 1949 because the new Israeli state made it plain they were intending to seek out those who committed crimes against humanity, extradite, try and if found guilty, execute those responsible.

The idea of the Nazi Flying saucer almost exclusively dates back to the book "German Secret Weapons of World War II written by Rudolf Lusar in the late 1950's" Lusar was a German major in a German army technical unit during the war. So it was written by the losing side.

The names traditionally associated with German Flying discs most often are.. Rudolf Schriever, along with other engineers Habermohl, Mierth and an Italian. Bellanzo . In the last few years a Czech designer, i believe name slips my mind, has come forward and claimed they stole the design from him. Now, this guy did indeed defect to the USSR and then defected back to the West. If you are going to make claims about Stalin, he would be the one to cite to make your argument at least look credible.

In fact here's the guy himself one Radu Manichetede *sp talking about it.

www.indyarocks.com...

There again, it's a British documentary so i doubt someone from LA probably has a clue it actually exists . No excuse, though, had the author asked for help on here she probably wouldn't have bothered with the book as she has obviously been 1; fed a pack of lies or 2; made it all up herself.

reply to post by FireMoon


I saw her interview on the Daily Show earlier this week. I thought the book sounded interesting enough to check out. However most of her sources are anonymous, so going into it I'm not expecting to find any proof or smoking guns. Alot of it can't be verified, so at best it'll be an interesting science fiction story. However what anon72 is suggesting is the epitome of ignorance. If you're going to launch a "Frontal Assault" to discredit an authors book, don't you think you should at least read it first?

Originally posted by kazanoom
reply to post by FireMoon

 

History is written by the victors. Just look at any American history text and it's chopped full of falsehoods. Everyone has a price and considering how desperate Mengela was it surely was a cause for desperate measures. No one knows for sure what became of him after the war or the Horten bros. for that matter.

I do think her source needs to make himself known, of course, if anything is to come of this. But I don't think this is anymore outlandish than little green men from outer space. I mean come on, Stalin and the doctor of death were some sick puppies.

The post-war Nazi criminal train to South America is pretty well established. It's where Barbie and Eichmann were caught. It's where Mengele died. Mengele came from a wealthy family and had wealthy friends not to mention the escape networks established by Nazis who could read the writing on the wall. What happened to him after the war, bouncing from Argentina to Paraguay to Brazil, is well known.

How is the book? Is it a real history of Area 51 or is it silly alien/mutant children nonsense? I'm very interested in Area 51 and I will pick it up if I feel it has some substance to it.

I'd also add, there is a documentary made in the Czech Republic which deals with much of the Nazi saucer technology. The reason it was never developed fully is simple. They weren't actually as good or as easy to fly as a bog standard helicopter. The Czech documentary was posted by me on thread some time ago, I will endeavour to find it, it is on Youtube.

Everything else about Vrill and Mercury based plasma engines is utter moonshine and has been invented in relatively recent times and virtually all of it resembles nothing more than a rewriting of Harbinson's novels in the Inception series and fiction is now "the truth*.

reply to post by Turiddu


My impression is that it's mostly a history of Area 51, the secret planes and bomb tests that went on there (not all of her sources are anonymous), and then at the end there's some of that alien/mutant children nonsense. However, I have only read a very small amount of it so far. Mostly been skimming through it and listening to some of her interviews.

This is not sinking in or I'm having blind spots. who the # is saying this?

Originally posted by FireMoon

www.indyarocks.com...

There again, it's a British documentary so i doubt someone from LA probably has a clue it actually exists .

Was thinking of that as soon as I started reading your part about Nazi Flying Saucers, pretty weird! I remember watching it a few years back and thinking it was a great documentary. No idea how right or not it was overall though, will have to watch it again and look further into it if I get the chance.

www.abovetopsecret.com...,i posted on this subject here and 2 other threads,

An interesting theory, but I strongly disagree. Read Stanton Friedmans "Flying Saucers and Science". There are simply too many people who have come forward from Roswell claiming that they have recovered bodies. There are too many documents (addressed to the president elect!) that explain how several saucers have crashed over the years. Jesse Marcels son, who was exposed to the debris and bodies says that his father was forced to lie about the disk. In one of the pictures of Marcel next to the (most likely) fake debris, he is holding a memo in his right hand. In six of the seven pictures he turns it away from the camera. But in one of them, for whatever reason, a tiny slit of the paper is exposed. David Rudiak had worked with high-thech computers exstensively to try to read the message. What he has found is amazing. The memo, contains several phrases of very interesting information. It states things such as "the victems of the crash" and "the disk they will ship". This proves both the weather balloon and the soviet union theory wrong. If it was a weather balloon test, there would not be victims or a disk. If it was the soviets there would have been no crash.

Originally posted by freelance_zenarchist
reply to post by Turiddu

 

My impression is that it's mostly a history of Area 51, the secret planes and bomb tests that went on there (not all of her sources are anonymous), and then at the end there's some of that alien/mutant children nonsense. However, I have only read a very small amount of it so far. Mostly been skimming through it and listening to some of her interviews.

Wow I wrote a whole response that somehow disappeared. Not going to rewrite it. I don't really buy her theories, but I thought her book was pretty well researched. The aviation stuff on the U2/SR71/F117 is all consistant with previous info. The Nazi deformed kid stuff is towards the end. Interesting, maybe some truth to it and she has some interesting info to back it up and even explains some of the obvious critisisms.

Originally posted by Frith
This is an utterly preposterous idea. More so than actual extraterrestrials crashing.

Would the US government actually cover-up a Russian-made hoax? No. They would say the Russians were trying to pull a fast one and show the trickery. During the red scare era where the U.S. government was actively seeking to prosecute anybody they thought was a communist this information would have been widely disseminated as leverage against Russia in the U.S. that indeed they were spying and in very strange ways.

To believe the U.S. government would hide this from American citizens to protect the Russian government is more silly than to think they covered up actual extraterrestrial bodies and equipment.

edit on 14-5-2011 by Frith because: (no reason given)

it would make the US look weak, not even knowing our air space had been penetrated

not saying I believe it, but I can see why the US would cover it up

Listened to the Fresh Air interview a couple of times and read the sections of the book on this topic. In the interview Jacobsen says that she believes her source is telling what he observed and/or was told. This doesn't mean she necessarily believes it to be true; however, she gives no alternate explanations either.

What is conspicuous in its absence is what this EG&G engineer made of the "equipment" from this craft, which he analyzed. Did he think it beyond human construction? As far as I can tell, this is never discussed, although it seems to be a crucial issue.

Also, what about alternative explanations for this source's information? Couldn't it well have been a loyalty test/counter-intelligence operation to see if these critical civilian personnel were capable of keeping government secrets, or to out some Soviet spy?

In the bit I did read of Jacobsen's book, I noticed one glaring error or typo. In describing German attempts at stealth technology during WWII, she says the Germans were imbedding "graphic" material into aircraft surfaces, where she clearly meant "graphite". On may argue that this is a trite error; however, I disagree. If one is discussing technical issues, one needs to use the correct terminology; otherwise one's credibility is undercut -- as well as whatever point one is trying to make is muddied. It seems such errors are common for non-technical persons relating technical issues.

FTR, I find the Soviet Roswell connection to be the least likely actual explanation for the Roswell incident -- for the many of the same reasons given by others in this and related threads. That said, I find it interesting how many people cite wikipedia information in refuting Jacobsen. They seem to think wikipedia is the final arbiter of fact. Jacobsen does discuss the Horten brothers whereabouts and cites sources; she also makes the assertion that the Soviets did acquire Horten plane designs, something others in this or related threads claim not to be the case -- although no citations or sources are provided. In this respect a bit of the criticism leveled at Jacobsen's books seems more than a trifle bush league. Let's strive more more intellectually robust discussions; it will make this a more valuable forum.

reply to post by MrInquisitive


I posted this video in this forum but it was moved. Rather frustrating as I was trying to show those with an interest in UFOs that the Russkis were not the country bumpkins they are often painted as.

Secret Soviet Aircraft of WW2

To my mind this was an important piece to contextualise much of what happened and shows that the Horten Bros designs didn't really add much to what the Russkis already had or knew.

I would also urge people to read this detailed and expertly compiled link.

Operation Cahrlie January 1947

It totally blows the myth Arnold's was the first sighting and also shows how Russki planes were considered and dismissed as the source.

It is my opinion, had the author of the book actually done their work properly and frankly had any real feel or knowledge of the subject of UFOs in the early post war period, they would have told their mole.."Yeah and I'm the fairy queen"

On the other hand I have to say, I doubt had the author had any knowledge of the era and UFOs they would have been *given* this material in the first place as they would have undoubtedly asked way too many awkward questions.

Area 51 and Roswell are nowadays, nothing more than cash cows for every author who wants to publish a book with their name on the cover. This situation perfectly suits those seeking to keep it quiet about the truth of what goes on in Area 51 and what really happened at Roswell.

I honestly don't know what happened in 47 at Roswell, however as the the revisionists carry on their merry way I'm fully expecting a knock on the door and camera crew awaiting my comments on how it was me, my cat and Chitty Chitty Bang Bang that crashed in Roswell as we were testing the time drive.

reply to post by FireMoon


Good links; hadn't seen this documentary about Soviet WWII-era aviation, and although I was aware of this UK UFO site, I hadn't perused anything there (the site seems to have well-researched articles, some with citations). Thanks.

Referring now two these two links:

Although the Russians apparently did have it going aviation-wise back then, they still didn't have anything way beyond what the US and Britain were capable of, i.e. no apparent ET technology, and didn't seem to have super long-range recon aircraft either, so it doesn't boost the Soviet Roswell connection -- which I think was essentially your contention, too, FireMoon.

The early British radar sightings are interesting. Seems some of the sightings could have been either atmospheric, Soviet or ET, for the specific article you linked to -- with one exception that had to be ET or atmospheric because of the estimated speeds (1000 mph, as well as stationary) and flight trajectory (erratic and fast diving). Does seem that as that was still in the early days of radar, that atmospheric causes could be likely explanations; however, another article at the site

early RAF visual flying saucer sightings

discusses significant visual and visual/ground radar sightings that I haven't heard about previously, and which caused the British government to take UfOs, i.e. flying saucers, seriously.

As an aside, I saw "The Thing (from Another World)" tonight (not half bad for sci-fi flick of that era). It was made in 1951. The space creature came specifically by flying saucer. So the pop culture notion of flying saucers from space was already in full gear by then, which might partly explain the rash of flying saucer sightings in 1952. I'm no trying to discount all such sightings, in particular the Washington DC ones, but it is important to take UFO sighting waves in historical context.