Encounter with a chemtrailer!

For some reason, southern CO and northern NM seem to be a hot bed of chemtrail believers, and every other conspiracy too. And this week was no exception.

I was in a UPS store in Taos NM, and a man was shipping off a water sample to a lab, and mentioning to the clerk about all the aluminum being found in rain water and how it was above EPA allowable drinking water limits. I knew right away this was a real life chemtrailer! not just some online entity, but a real person.

I did ask, if this was about chemtrails, and when he said yes, i did mention that I was a professional pilot who has also worked in the Environmental Sciences, and I have seen nothing but junk science and zero knowledge of aviation, from the chemtrialers.

We actually had a friendly, but spirited debate there in the UPS store, but unfortunately, every assertion of his was not backed up by science or meterology, but more just indicative of perceptions and reading chemtrail sites. Its wierd in a way, that people who live in the desert and dusty areas, do not realize that rainfall brings down dust. Anyone who lives in NM, CO and AZ, can attest how light rains or sprinkles, can leave a car dirtier than before, so of course rainwater will be contaminated with dust, which is just the soil and sand kicked up by wind.

He was erroneously comparing water samples of rainwater and water exposed to the air, with guidelines for municipal drinking water, which makes zero sense. Of course rainwater and water exposed to dust will test high for whatever is in the airborne dust it fell through, which has nothing to do with drinking water from city water plants.

He also claimed that all the chemplanes has forced the airliners to fly lower, which was incorrect. RVSM actually allows more aircraft to fly up high than before.

He disagreed that WW2 aircraft made contrails, and insisted it was some particle trail so that they could find their way home. And he insisted there should not be much traffic overhead Taos, but quite a bit of air traffic flies over northern NM, and contrails can be visible here from 100 miles away up here too.

Unfortunately he had many misconceptions spread by chemtrail sites regarding aircraft, contrails and science. This guy is spending his own hard earned money sending water samples around, all because chemtrail sites are promoting junk science and this guy fell for it all. I tried to explain that Aluminum and barium are part of the soil, and will always be found in dirt and water

He did insist that contrails did not used to persist, and I told him that not only have that persisted, that there is a guideline chart called the Appleman Chart, used to have an idea when contrails will persist. He was actually interested in that and wrote it down to look it up for later. I also told him about the computer equipment you can buy, such as the SBS-1 box that deciphers transponder returns and you can get the raw data instead of having to go get it from websites.

I did make sure and shake hands with the guy as he left, and tried to make sure our debate was on a good note. Hopefully he did learn a few things that he did not know before.

reply to post by firepilot


Oh, dear me......

He disagreed that WW2 aircraft made contrails, and insisted it was some particle trail so that they could find their way home.

When faced with that sort of intellectual vacuum.....what hope is there, anymore?? Is it that sort of illogic, and poor understanding of history (WW2 this case) that keeps this hoax flourishing, for so long??

reply to post by firepilot


So what was meeting one in real life like?

I keep waiting to run into a chemtrailer in real life, but it just hasnt happened yet, but I'm sure one day it will. I am suprised though, from your account that it ended with a handshake, and not him screaming at you that you're a disinfo agent or something along those lines

Two jets of the same type, flying side by side, same altitude, one is leaving a contrail and one is leaving a chem trail....Can you explain why one persists for a hr. or more and the other disappears in a matter of seconds.... I can only guess that the one leaving the normal contrail is full of $hit and the one leaving the chemtrail is for real...Also, I have never seen myself a chemtrail jet flying low...They don't want you to see it for some reason or another...95% of them fly high as hell...around here anyway.....

reply to post by Caji316

Two jets of the same type, flying side by side, same altitude, one is leaving a contrail and one is leaving a chem trail....

First, how do you know they were "same altitude"?? And, "same type". Photos? Videos?? Or,just your "word"??You said "side by side".....how far apart laterally??

Do you know what the normal (civilian) minimum separation rules are, for high-altitude flights on parallel courses (or, for all high-altitude situations, at same altitude)??

Originally posted by Caji316
Two jets of the same type, flying side by side, same altitude, one is leaving a contrail and one is leaving a chem trail....Can you explain why one persists for a hr. or more and the other disappears in a matter of seconds.... I can only guess that the one leaving the normal contrail is full of $hit and the one leaving the chemtrail is for real...Also, I have never seen myself a chemtrail jet flying low...They don't want you to see it for some reason or another...95% of them fly high as hell...around here anyway.....

Simple, determining the exact altitude of an airplane by eye only is next to impossible.

Two jets flying above 35,000ft, 1000ft apart from eachother are going to look like they're at the same altutude from the ground.

The difference in conditions conducive to contrail formation can change in as little as 500ft elevation difference; hence your "claim".

Originally posted by Caji316
Two jets of the same type, flying side by side, same altitude, one is leaving a contrail and one is leaving a chem trail....Can you explain why one persists for a hr. or more and the other disappears in a matter of seconds.... I can only guess that the one leaving the normal contrail is full of $hit and the one leaving the chemtrail is for real...Also, I have never seen myself a chemtrail jet flying low...They don't want you to see it for some reason or another...95% of them fly high as hell...around here anyway.....

What type were they, and what was their altitude?

reply to post by firepilot


Well done for keeping the debate on a good note. This always helps when you are trying to put your point of view across. Afterall, we are all adults and throwing our toys out of the pram really never gets us anywhere or taken seriously.

Anyway, I know that a lot of people are debating this topic, although many are requesting it is called a HOAX.

With regards to the WW2 planes, sure they were flying at high altitude in order to evade being spotted, but the contrails would have given them away. However a lot of the trails that were seen at lower level, would be due to the planes having piston engines, therefore the exhaust fumes would have contributed to this. Which could and imo, should be classed as chemtrails as CO2 was being emitted.

Originally posted by Caji316
Two jets of the same type, flying side by side, same altitude, one is leaving a contrail and one is leaving a chem trail....

How can you tell they are the same type and at the same altitude?

Can you explain why one persists for a hr. or more and the other disappears in a matter of seconds.... I can only guess that the one leaving the normal contrail is full of $hit and the one leaving the chemtrail is for real...

Different propulsive efficiencies - there's a whole paper on it here that tells you EXACTLY why - elib.dlr.de...

Also, I have never seen myself a chemtrail jet flying low...They don't want you to see it for some reason or another...95% of them fly high as hell...around here anyway.....

Because usually the temperature is far too high at low altitudes for contrails to form - but it can happen where there are very cold temperatures at low altitude - like here:



The best one isn't until the a/c takes off, but in the mean time you can see obvious contails coming from the engines that then get obscured by blowing snow, and also a contrail from a truck in the foreground at about 3:50.

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
reply to post by firepilot

 

Well done for keeping the debate on a good note. This always helps when you are trying to put your point of view across. Afterall, we are all adults and throwing our toys out of the pram really never gets us anywhere or taken seriously.

Anyway, I know that a lot of people are debating this topic, although many are requesting it is called a HOAX.

With regards to the WW2 planes, sure they were flying at high altitude in order to evade being spotted, but the contrails would have given them away. However a lot of the trails that were seen at lower level, would be due to the planes having piston engines, therefore the exhaust fumes would have contributed to this. Which could and imo, should be classed as chemtrails as CO2 was being emitted.

Actually no, contrails were the same then as now, piston engines resulted in contrails too, since its still high temperature exhaust with water vapor as a component of of it. How exactly does C02 emissions qualify as chemtrails though, since you would not see it, and any combustion results in C02 for that matter, when that is not a conspiracy but a consequence.

WW2 planes did not fly high to avoid being spotted, they flew that high because they have much longer range when flying in thinner air, due to less drag. Contrails were a consequence of that, and at times they would definitely persisted

The Hoax term can be appropriate however, because I totally believe some of the promoters of it, invented it to make money, such as Will Thomas, and Len Horowitz. And I believe that people like Tony Hilder and Michael Murphy, are continuing with that, promoting it in order to make money from chemtrailers. Some of them are actively defaming each other online, because they are fighting over money and product sales.

So a clear day at say 80 degrees F. A plane travels over the city and leaves a trail which doesn't dissapate for say about an hour. However, due to the wind it travels across the city. Yet there is another plane in the sky and this one leaves a trail, which disappears within 2-3 minutes of being created.

What altitude would these planes be travelling at in order for this to happen?

Thanks for your advice in advance.

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
reply to post by firepilot

 

With regards to the WW2 planes, sure they were flying at high altitude in order to evade being spotted, but the contrails would have given them away.

Yep - and you can find comments online about teh crews being mightilly persisted off at exactly that point.

However a lot of the trails that were seen at lower level,

What ones are those??

would be due to the planes having piston engines, therefore the exhaust fumes would have contributed to this. Which could and imo, should be classed as chemtrails as CO2 was being emitted.

CO2 is invisible, and is coming from the exhaust all the time whether there is a visible trail or not. Smokey exhausts are visible at low level - and plenty of turbine a/c have them too - especially back in the earlier days of jet a/c, but C-130's have noticeably smokey exhausts at least up to the H version.

Here's some low level smokey exhausts for you:



This is cased by water injection at takeoff to increase thrust - the water cools the air down so more oxygen is in a given volume, but it also causes a lot of fuel to remain unburned in the combustion chamber, which then becomes smoke in the hot exhaust.

Water injection isn't used on modern a/c any more.

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
So a clear day at say 80 degrees F. A plane travels over the city and leaves a trail which doesn't dissapate for say about an hour. However, due to the wind it travels across the city. Yet there is another plane in the sky and this one leaves a trail, which disappears within 2-3 minutes of being created.

What altitude would these planes be travelling at in order for this to happen?

Thanks for your advice in advance.

Well obviously one was at an altitude that was good for persistence, and the other was probably lower. As for what specific altitude, there is no way I can tell from that, because the altitudes that are favorable for persistence, changes with the weather. That would be like me asking you what altitude the clouds are at outside the winter here right now.

But you can easily have a plane at 32,000 ft with a short contrail, and one at 34,000 ft with a much bigger persistent contrail.

reply to post by Caji316


You mean like this?
Look at the picture and the explanation at the bottom of the page

Two different planes. Two different engines. Two different contrails.
Just like two different cars making two different plumes on a winter day. Lots of variables, but some cars will make big clouds, others small clouds, and some no clouds at all.

Same with airplanes.

Originally posted by Cobaltic1978
So a clear day at say 80 degrees F. A plane travels over the city and leaves a trail which doesn't dissapate for say about an hour. However, due to the wind it travels across the city. Yet there is another plane in the sky and this one leaves a trail, which disappears within 2-3 minutes of being created.

What altitude would these planes be travelling at in order for this to happen?

the altitudes could be anything above 25 or so thousand feet - temperature is one criteria, and the others are humidity & pressure.

Temperature can be roughly calculated by the rule of thumb that it decreases by 2 deg C per 1000 ft altitude.

If it is 80 deg F at Sea level that is 27 deg C. So at 25000 ft it will be (roughly) -23 deg C, at 30,000 ft -33 Deg C and at 35,000 ft -43 Deg C.

the Appleman chart isn't 100% accurate, but it remains a useful tool for seeing if conditions are at least roughly possible for contrails - asd-www.larc.nasa.gov...

so at relatively high pressure - 500mb - that's about 18,000 ft for "standard" conditions - se www.csgnetwork.com... - you would not be surprised to see contrails somewher between -33 and -43 deg C.

30,000 feet is about 300 mb - so about -38 to -48 deg C,

35,000 feet is about 240 mb - so about -40 to about -52 deg C

So in thie scenario I have constructed the conditions seem right for at least some contrails at about 35,000 feet, but not at about 30,000 feet.

the difference between a persistant contrail and a non-persistent one would be less than that 5000 ft difference.

Again the actual formation or otherwise will depend upon the real life conditions - the figures above are only a combination of "rule of thumb" and "standard conditions", so can only be an illustration of what might hapen.

That is awesome, I love that guy! I bet his house is rigged with all kinds of gadgets and he has a bunker full of goodies! Now why can't my neighbors be like him, I live in NM!

I am feeling all bunkerless out here!

I do understand what you mean, seriously he is comparing the drinking water levels of contaminates? Our municipal water should be banned from becoming airborne! Zero Sprinkler policy for fear of chem-trailing the neighbors!

Originally posted by firepilot

WW2 planes did not fly high to avoid being spotted, they flew that high because they have much longer range when flying in thinner air, due to less drag.

Is that true for piston a/c? I know turbine a/c get much longer range at altitude.

AFAIK they flew high to be above as much AA fire as possible. The max effective altitude of the standard "88" - the FLAK 36 was about 26,000 feet.

the Germans also deployed some better guns than that of course - 105mm & 128mm and higher velocity 88's that could reach higher.

The British Stiling bomber was notorious for having a loaded ceiling of only about 18,000 ft IIRC, which resulted in a significantly higher loss rate than the later british heavies that could fly higher.

Contrails were a consequence of that, and at times they would definitely persisted

no argument there!

Originally posted by Greensage
That is awesome, I love that guy! I bet his house is rigged with all kinds of gadgets and he has a bunker full of goodies! Now why can't my neighbors be like him, I live in NM!

I am feeling all bunkerless out here!

I do understand what you mean, seriously he is comparing the drinking water levels of contaminates? Our municipal water should be banned from becoming airborne! Zero Sprinkler policy for fear of chem-trailing the neighbors!

Well he was not indicting the drinking water supply, more of insisting rainwater is contaminated by chemtrails, since the rainwater would violate EPA drinking water standards as applied to city water systems.

One could also say that air near a forest fire or volcano would violate the Clean Air Act.

I try to stay away from this topic, but sometimes I have to tell my story. Last year I was at work and I noticed on my blackberry facebook app that some people I know were talking about "chemtrails" and the jets that were trailing our area at that moment and the weird "stuff" falling from the sky behind them.

I had never put any stock into the chemtrail stuff at all, so I had to go see what the fuss was about. I went outside and looked around. There were some jets and contrails high in the sky, but I didn't think that was too interesting. So as I was about to go back inside, I noticed something else...

A very low flying jet, actually it appeared to be an old B 52, appeared over the crest of Lookout Mtn. This apparent B 52 was laying a VERY thick double contrail behind it. Wait a second, I thought, and looked closer. This jet had 4 engines along the wings, and the 2 contrails were not coming from anywhere near any of them.

My interest was peaked. I stood and watched it pass over and away, it leaving its hugely thick cloud behind it. That's when it got really odd.

Now for a long time I have noticed long strands of what appeared to be spider silk on cars or trees or buildings. Never any webs or spiders, just long strands stuck to stuff, especially in the mornings. - had never given it a second thought...

So I was standing there watching and the sky started to sparkle a bit, with what looked like snow. As it got closer, I realized that it was long silky strands and small wads of this spider silk like substance. For several minutes it fell from the jets trail. I actually collected some samples and tried to get pictures of it, but I couldn't really focus on it, as all I had was my cell phone.

Then, more weirdness, a few hours later, ATS was buzzing with people talking about "angel hair" and "strange weblike substances" all over the country, especially out west. At the same time as the B 52 had dumped the stuff on me here in Alabama. I tried to tell them what I saw here, but no one listened. Everyone wanted to believe it was aliens or spiders or anything other than something from a "chemtrail". Because we all know chemtrails don't exist, right?

Well, I don't know what the stuff was made of, or why it was coming from contrails from a B 52 that did NOT come from its engines, but I do know that when I see that stuff stuck on my car these days, I know better than to assume its from spiders, and usually, if I look up, there will be a trail across the sky, just lingering.

Just my experience. You guys probably won't believe it, and I don't blame you, I never believed either. Not until I saw it first hand. You can't deny it when you witness it first hand.

Thanks for your replies.

I will do some research and hopefully gain some education from this. I was sitting on the fence regarding this issue, so maybe I can make a decision either way. I have seen some strange trails being created as mentioned in previous threads, but I find the whole issue fascinating.