Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence

To quote the late Carl Sagan "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

To quote ATS "Deny Ignorance".

So ATS, what has happened?

I have seen more and more threads lately where members spew out all kinds of fantastic claims. When these members are met with questions about their amazing and often outlandish claims, they are met with a "well then prove me wrong" mentality.

What has happened on ATS to cause this shift in the direction of the site?

I was a long time lurker (think years) before finally becoming a member, and I recall ATS having a higher standard than the other sites out there. I remember the old time members not standing for the "make insane claims backed up with no evidence then require any challengers to prove me wrong" attitudes.

ATS, I am dissapoint!

reply to post by YourPopRock


in the short time i've been on ATS i've seen multiple 'headlines' that read like they were penned by staff writers of The National Enquirer or other sensational, overblown tabloid publications.

perhaps allowing posts to go right to public view isn't the best format to follow. as i've mentioned in other threads where veteran ATS members have expressed their unhappiness with the current state of this site, it may be wise to have 'Mods' review and approve OPs before they appear online.

just my two cents, for whatever its worth.

reply to post by YourPopRock


i agree 100%. Though I think this should probably get moved into the RANT section, I'm sure you'll find tons of people feeling the same thing. I can't tell you how many times I've been called a disinfo agent or what not, or told I was closed minded.

the other day i was actually informed that reminding people that UFO stands for unidentified flying object, and doesn't automatically translate to alien space ships, was a form of ridicule!

Seriously, pointing out a simple FACT is not ridicule to these kids.

The good thing is, people like me just won't shut up. If you make some ridiculous claim, I'm calling you on it.

i'm not sure when this happened, but apparently there has been a fundamental shift in how people with this site. Now, apparently, because it's a conspiracy oriented site, we're not allowed to disagree, ask for proof, or even investigate anyone claims. We are expected, because this is a conspiracy site, to just agree with every retarded thing posted here, pat them on the back, and give out unwarranted stars and flags.

in the short time i've been on ATS i've seen multiple 'headlines' that read like they were penned by staff writers of The National Enquirer or other sensational, overblown tabloid publications.

And that's the thing, that gets people click happy, and when a site is run on the proceeds of ad based revenue, all the clicks count. What i would like to see is an opposite approach...

you post up something ridiculous and start the crap about "prove it wrong" you get post banned. If you can't back up your claim without resorting to childish antics, don't post it. Beyond that, nothing new is being posted, it's all the same tired old CRAP.

There's a handful of solid contributors on this site and they are easy to spot. The rest seems to be recycled junk reworded and re-posted.

I've also noticed something else, not sure if I'm seeing too much into it, but I've noticed people will come and make some outrageous claim like the sun is no longer producing light in the red spectrum. they claim the sun is "too white". now of course after reading this I start googling and I don't find much about this at all, anywhere. when I get back to the thread I see like 25 people all saying almost verbatim what the OP said.

That was 1 instance, I've seen various others and it appears to me, to be bandwagon jumping. This isn't helping the situation at all when people are coming posting honest true things that happened to them, then 15 kids all make up stories about how the exact thing happened to them too.

I had a "friend" like this, the story topper is what we called him. whatever story YOU have, he has to one up you.

Extraordinary evidence requires extraordinary amounts of money.

I think this is an inportant enough topic to sit in the general conspiracy area... Since it speaks directly to conspiracy postings in general.

It is really getting to be an issue.

The whole "prove what I am saying is false" approach is the root of ignorance.

Originally posted by YourPopRock
To quote the late Carl Sagan "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

To quote ATS "Deny Ignorance".

So ATS, what has happened?

I have seen more and more threads lately where members spew out all kinds of fantastic claims. When these members are met with questions about their amazing and often outlandish claims, they are met with a "well then prove me wrong" mentality.

What has happened on ATS to cause this shift in the direction of the site?

I was a long time lurker (think years) before finally becoming a member, and I recall ATS having a higher standard than the other sites out there. I remember the old time members not standing for the "make insane claims backed up with no evidence then require any challengers to prove me wrong" attitudes.

ATS, I am dissapoint!

Here here.. I agree completely.. and if you challenge someone to assert any evidence or back it up with logical thinking you get labeled a disinformation agent, or told you're not awake yet .. people are too unwilling to trust in science or logic.. I had someone refute "science" because it's supported by men that just want to save their funding. So I responded basically by saying "You'd rather trust your side which has no basis in fact, no supporting evidence whatsoever vs known basic scientific principals? good luck with that"

Originally posted by Tephra
Extraordinary evidence requires extraordinary amounts of money.

Perhaps true in some cases, if not most cases.. but I'd be willing to listen to someone post a fantastic claim if they were humble enough to admit it's a theory without any facts .. be willing to accept criticism for making such a claim and be willing to thoughtfully consider plausible explanations in the meantime.. instead the usual scenario is someone posting an extraordinary claim and then battling anyone who thinks to the contrary.. if you don't agree you must not get it or you've let 'the man' brain wash you.

It's gotten to the point I'm reminded of Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory FAR too often..

Ok i agree with you.
But i'll play the devil's advocate here:

Sometimes extraordinary ideas or claims must come out,whether evidence exist or not.Through debate and not trolling or name calling people can create a new theory which in time might bring the evidence everyone is asking for or debunk the claim.
Remember there is no such thing as stupid ideas.
If we supress ideas we are no better than the priests in the dark ages.Ideas must circulate you never know when you will find the next breakthrough.
There are some members that i must admit they do have a strong imagination and their ideas are so far fetched that it's hard to follow.If we are not free to express all the thoughts we have here,then what is the point of being memebers at all.

To all the above i exclude troll and hoax threads.

And since we are quoting people here:

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere.
Carl Sagan

No idea is so outlandish that it should not be considered with a searching but at the same time a steady eye.
Winston Churchill

A person with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds.
Mark Twain

Originally posted by miniatus

Perhaps true in some cases, if not most cases.. but I'd be willing to listen to someone post a fantastic claim if they were humble enough to admit it's a theory without any facts .. be willing to accept criticism for making such a claim and be willing to thoughtfully consider plausible explanations in the meantime.. instead the usual scenario is someone posting an extraordinary claim and then battling anyone who thinks to the contrary.. if you don't agree you must not get it or you've let 'the man' brain wash you.

nicely said lets all read this twice and think about what he is saying even more

Originally posted by Phantom traveller
Ok i agree with you.
But i'll play the devil's advocate here:

Sometimes extraordinary ideas or claims must come out,whether evidence exist or not.Through debate and not trolling or name calling people can create a new theory which in time might bring the evidence everyone is asking for or debunk the claim.
Remember there is no such thing as stupid ideas.
If we supress ideas we are no better than the priests in the dark ages.Ideas must circulate you never know when you will find the next breakthrough.
There are some members that i must admit they do have a strong imagination and their ideas are so far fetched that it's hard to follow.If we are not free to express all the thoughts we have here,then what is the point of being memebers at all.

To all the above i exclude troll and hoax threads.

And since we are quoting people here:

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere.
Carl Sagan

No idea is so outlandish that it should not be considered with a searching but at the same time a steady eye.
Winston Churchill

A person with a new idea is a crank until the idea succeeds.
Mark Twain

It sort of goes with what I said above, I don't mind listening as long as someone is humble about the facts surrounding their claim, if there are none.. then admit that much! I've seen far too many threads lately also begin with something like "I was baked and looking at the sky when" .. or something akin to that. If someone has an extraordinary claim then they could at least go into how the idea came to them, why they think it's plausible and support the whole idea with things that make sense.. that is how a good idea blossoms into a great idea..

Often enough though people have no supporting evidence, nothing whatsoever to reinforce their claims other than it sounds good and makes sense in their minds so it should to us as well or we can stuff it.

I have been in enough threads where I was outright challenged to prove the op wrong on what he was saying...

When what he was saying was based on God knows what.

That is my point, be prepared to back up your claims with evidence, or at least be ready to explain how you came to the conclusion you came to.

It saddens me to see that just go unchecked.

There is a problem with this line of thinking.

extraordinary = 'beyond what is ordinary' or NOT ordinary or even remarkable.

I say all you need is evidence. Period.

The issue is, most people are stupid, uniformed, and easily manipulated. And, THIS reality is what we consider 'ordinary'.

So, to expect me to provide BETTER evidence than you, to overcome your ignorance and prejudices is extremely unreasonable.




(obviously, not *your*... One's)

Originally posted by YourPopRock
I have been in enough threads where I was outright challenged to prove the op wrong on what he was saying...

When what he was saying was based on God knows what.

That is my point, be prepared to back up your claims with evidence, or at least be ready to explain how you came to the conclusion you came to.

It saddens me to see that just go unchecked.

Yeah I've been there several times and was actually told more than once that the burden of proof was on the debunker not the person making the claim.. they don't understand scientific theory that states everything is a theory until proven to be true.

Imagine if all science worked that way .. I could make any claim I chose to and have it be fact until otherwise proven to be fantasy .. the color red automatically changes to green all over the world when Obama recites the lyrics to yellow submarine backwards while standing on his head in the shower.. PROVE ME WRONG .. u jelly debunkers? ( reference to science troll for those that don't get the jelly thing )

I have one person getting all butt-hurt (he jelly) because he can't provide any proof to his claims. Instead he spams the same pictures in every thread and tries to make connections based on them (out of context as they are).

These days, I would settle for ANY evidence to back up a claim made on ATS... it doesn't even have to be extraordinary!

The problem is, no one will ever provide any!

I tend to agree with you all. I too have been around on this site for quite some time, and yes the standard seems to have slid back.
I think some of it may have to do with society and the way it behaves in general. A few years ago there seemed to be stronger minded folk who didn't seem to be out to get peoples approval of things. They used to call a spade a spade. So if they didn't have any facts or evidence to their claims, they just plain and simply, kept their ideas to themselves.
But nowdays, everything has to be politically correct, can't go upsetting this person or that person. So if someone wants to sensationalise themselves and say that they have seen a blue fairy in their backyard, they will. Heaven forbid anyone who questions them for any factual evidence.
But as the once infamous Chopper Read once said, "never let the facts get in the way of a good story"

reply to post by jamesthegreat


The mods are some of the worst offenders/enablers of this type of behavior. Call someone out on a claim that is unsubstantiated and you will likely have a mod with their panties in a bundle about manners and decorum... all the time the person making the silly unsubstantiated claims just keeps on babbling!

reply to post by YourPopRock


What happened?
Lemme splain.
You remember Metallica, from waaaay back, mmmhm good sound.
But they went commercial and the quality was lost.
There ya go.

Extrasordinary claims requre extraordinary evidence? I tend to agree with this - and need to say this applies first and foremost to the GOVERNMENT.

When they start acting with transparency and providing open-handed evidence for many of their extraordinary claims, when they start respecting the law and when the judicial system is purged of corruption, the rest of us will have less need to second guess because of their deceitful, dishonest, mafiosos styoe of power mongering.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters


I've also noticed something else, not sure if I'm seeing too much into it, but I've noticed people will come and make some outrageous claim like the sun is no longer producing light in the red spectrum. they claim the sun is "too white". now of course after reading this I start googling and I don't find much about this at all, anywhere. when I get back to the thread I see like 25 people all saying almost verbatim what the OP said.

I replied to the above mentioned thread. I was not trying to top anybody's story. Just giving my own personal opinion. What's wrong with giving an opinion on something that is interesting to you? It does not mean you agree with the OP or are backing up their claims, but just stating that you have been experiencing similar things. Does not mean you're lying or trying to get attention, in my case anyhow.

The problem comes in when all of these claims get made without any evidence to back them.

Now, not to be someone who simply presents a problem but does not offer a solution, I present this thought...

How about instead of stating something like "The Masons eat babies and run the world secretly" when there is no evidence of it, what if that same poster said "I think" or "I believe that" or even "It is my opinion that" before making a baseless claim? Then ats would be back to the free-flow of thought.

But to make stupid claims that are presented as factual, and when asked to back the claims up with proof to say things such as "prove my claims wrong"... well, then you are simply demonstrating yourself to be an idiot or at the very least a black-hole of incompetence.

Promote the free-flow of thought on ATS. The free-flow of facts on ATS. And please, everyone, help stem off the free-flow of BS that this day threatens to drown ATS.