Would you ever give up your religion for the greater humanity?

This post may be a bit premature, but I'm almost certain it will be a seriously debatable topic within the next few months.

Accepting it or not, religion is a key element that gives conviction and vindication. I just read a topic on Muslims beheading children in Thailand [LINK]. Judaism and Christianity have been just as blood guilty. However, religion is still the moral foundation in many cultures.

When the time comes to choose "what" to believe, would you choose to discontinue your religion for the sake of peace? How close do you feel we are to the tipping point where we would choose humanity over religion?

reply to post by CodeRed3D


I would give up my religion but not my beliefs. I don't want a label, I just want to live right.

reply to post by Ryanp5555


Of coarse you are entitled to your own beliefs but yea... getting rid of belief systems

Not in a million years would I do this.. My faith is a large part of who I am... and I personally beleive I am a better person because of it. Of course I've never beheaded children or anything of that nature....

I personally think that the right to practice your religion is one of our most important rights and I think no one should ever have to make the choice you present here. Sure religious belief systems do a lot of harm in many cases, but they do equally as much good. Many many people have been helped in the name of God especially in the third world from the first.

Mormonism would be a great example of this.. Sure people make fun of them and all that, but these people (all of them) go on a mission to third world countries and in most cases give them some serious hope among more tangible assistance..

If what I believed was proven to be "wrong" then heck yes. If I believed Jesus was the son of God and someone proved it to be false then why would I continue believing that?

I gave up on religion a long time ago. It is nothing but a justification for people to do evil themselves and to each other in the name of some higher power, whom no one should question. I also see religion as a power mongering structure that teaches externalism and pushing personal responsibility off oneself, and is filled with hypocrisy.

I have beliefs, but I refuse to subscribe to religion. The sooner religion crumbles and people start taking responsibility for themselves and their actions and start realizing the devil didn't make them do it after all, the sooner things will start changing.

Originally posted by mrjones7885
reply to post by Ryanp5555

 

Of coarse you are entitled to your own beliefs but yea... getting rid of belief systems

If we are talking about belief systems then no. I would still maintain my current set of beliefs. They are obviously too important to me. Besides, in my belief system, it is not humanity who actually decides what is right and wrong.

Originally posted by MJZoo
If what I believed was proven to be "wrong" then heck yes. If I believed Jesus was the son of God and someone proved it to be false then why would I continue believing that?

That's a very good point. In this thread, I'm not taking that stance that there is only one religion that's acceptable to humanity. I'm not talking about choosing a god to worship or proving which one exists.

I'm asking would people give up their religion for the greater humanity and peace? Or would you continue to protect that right by force?

Originally posted by CodeRed3D

Originally posted by MJZoo
If what I believed was proven to be "wrong" then heck yes. If I believed Jesus was the son of God and someone proved it to be false then why would I continue believing that?

That's a very good point. In this thread, I'm not taking that stance that there is only one religion that's acceptable to humanity. I'm not talking about choosing a god to worship or proving which one exists.

I'm asking would people give up their religion for the greater humanity and peace? Or would you continue to protect that right by force?

It's hard for me to give a true answer since I'm not religious, but I would probably say "yes". Religion just seems to be a huge pissing match. Even within ONE religion there are huge differences, let alone the differences between religions. It's hard for me to understand how people are willing to fight for something or someone they have no proof of, but they are not willing to fight for their fellow humans just because they believe in something different.

I think a religion is something you never give up on, Thats what makes it such a dangerous thing. Alot of people would die for it, and alot more then just the few radicals here and there. It wouldn be just giving up your religion. To most it would be like giving up a lifestyle, giving up on cultures history

reply to post by CodeRed3D
Yes.

Since this topic is somewhat controversial, and my personal beliefs are just that - Personal, I will be brief in my answer.

There was a time that I 'followed' Christianity - more specifically I aligned with Catholicism, I attended church for a few years, read the bible somewhat extensively (great book!), and I really did the enjoy the whole aspect of what it stood for, and like to think that I learned a lot during those days. I believe following one religion can be a good way to build a spiritual foundation on what sort of morals and values we should strive to live by, but that the amount of enlightenment one can gain from it is limited.

Then, I spent some time in the middle east and for over a year observed the (other, some would say opposing) religion of Islam and slowly but surely realized that adhering to only one religion is not the answer for me, and may not be the answer to humanity in regards to advancing to a higher stage of civilization. I am convinced that basing everything you believe on one religion, on one book, in one church is the very brick wall that will prevent us from reaching a state of higher enlightenment and planetary unity, and will continue to result in bloodshed as long as mankind remains stuck in this sort of train of thought and belief.

I should not have to give up my religion as it is a peaceful nonviolent religion. People who murder, kill, or find any way to take another life need to ask themselves on a very deep level how God would feel as they cause harm to their family of brothers and sisters. Just because Catholics have murdered in the name of God, or some other group or government entity murders in the name of Jesus, or in some other being, does not mean that God condones the killing. True followers of Christ do not murder or kill. I think all to often the people on ATS have a distorted and inaccurate view of what being a humble true and faithful follower of Christ or any other benevolent being is really all about.

The greater good is served by following what is right... and murder is never right! Whatever the truth is, religion or not, murder would not be an answer to anything. Jesus says to turn the other cheek when those cause you harm. Look at His life as an example for nonviolence.

with love and peace,
GV

reply to post by GoldenVoyager


Yeah except there are tons of examples in the Bible that condone murder. And isn't the Bible the "word of God"?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

.........you get the point.

reply to post by CodeRed3D


It is said there are two types of people in the world, those with false dichotomies, and unicorns.

For the masses of our human population these rules of thought seem to hold true, that there are those who are religious and anti-state, there are those who are anti-religious and pro-state, and finally there are those who are dishonest with themselves and thus others about all of the above. There is however a smaller group of people, one that largely goes unnoticed within society, that truly seeks to move beyond these barriers and find a new foundation on which to establish ethical behavior. These are the people that see no need for religious doctrine or statist authoritarianism to establish the “right and wrongs” of ethical behavior. They are considered the radicals, and have often been subjected to persecution and even violent suppression.

It seems to me that anyone who is sincere about living in harmony with others, sincere about living in accord with virtuous/moral/ethical behavior, would have no problem in letting go of their religious identification of self if its attachment threatens the very things they hold dear to their heart, being harmony with others and virtuous/moral/ethical behavior.

Saying you cherish virtuous/moral/ethical behavior, saying you seek harmony with others but still refusing to let go of the barriers that keep this from becoming true is nothing short of hypocrisy in my opinion.

Good thread! S&F!

Would you ever give up your religion for the greater humanity?

And go to Hell for the greater humanity?

Hell no!

reply to post by MJZoo


MJZoo, all good points on the Old Testament. I am no bible thumper as I feel the Holy Bible appears to have plenty of holes in it and other problems with it. That being said, basic intuition and personal life experiences have resonated with me that killing is not of the Truth. In any case, with regard to the OP, the greater good is achieved when we rid ourselves of the anger and hostiliy towards each other. Whether or not someone believes in a particular religion does not mean that their beliefs are in conflict with the greater good.

As for the Old Testament I have little connect with it. My beliefs are not molded from any particular book. I am skeptical about the Bible like most here, yet I do still have strong faith in Jesus Christ, based upon personal experience and not necessarily solely upon the New Testament.

Should we be forced to give up our faith, even if we have the most benevolent intentions for all of mankind? What kind of tyrant would impose this?

GV

reply to post by CodeRed3D


If Group A believes something different than Group B, Group A must be horrible and be destroyed. That is the thinking that causes most of our wars. Without religion, I believe we'd have a lot less fighting and wars.
My family doesn't have a specific religion but we are very spiritual people. We believe in helping our fellow neighbors and hope that our neighbors would help us if we needed. We don't have to worship the same "God" or any "God" for that matter to know how to respect each other and get along.
I think the best thing that could happen is for everyone to drop organized religion and learn to live life day by day, be thankful for what you have and get along with others. You don't need a book to teach you how to do that.

Interesting thought provoking thread. We should have the freedom to believe what we want. There are so many different Christian religions with slightly different beliefs. True, it is very sad that so many use religion to condone murder on those who have opposing views. Fundamentally, I would hope that our freedom to believe is never stripped from us. We have given up so many of our personal freedoms to the government already. What's next?

reply to post by CodeRed3D

When the time comes to choose "what" to believe, would you choose to discontinue your religion for the sake of peace? How close do you feel we are to the tipping point where we would choose humanity over religion?

First of all, most of us don't really get to "choose" what we believe. Clearly, most of us inherit "beliefs" of some kind, we didn't ask for them.

Later, some will have opportunities to evaluate their beliefs, and then make choices accordingly.

In both cases, you have people who believe, or have come to believe in their world-view. Of course, it doesn't necessarily require "god". "Secularism", or "humanism" share traits with "religion", because they are competing paradigms.

So the first question doesn't really work, IMO. People might choose to give up their paradigm ("religion"), but only if something else arrives to replace it. We each apparently must have one, a world-view, whatever it it may be (and I would submit that the "default" isn't necessarily "humanity").

The second question sets up a false "choice". By presenting "humanity" as Option B as opposed to religion, the assumption is that "humanity" is automatically understood to be a preferable paradigm.

In fact, "humanity", the way the term was used, is rather ill-defined. In your usage, it serves as an alternate "paradigm". What exactly might that be? "Humanism" perhaps? Live and let live? Justice for all? Hmmm.

We can't get rid of religion, anymore than we can rid ourselves of our individual world-views. We each see the world in different ways, and if tomorrow we woke up, and didn't remember what came before, it still wouldn't be long before this one began "worshipping" the sun or the moon, or that one decided they could control people by installing some system of superstitions.

I'm not a religionist, but if there is a "problem", it's not religion, per se. It's people. We're the problem!

JR

well first lets clear up the brainwashed propaganda-
Christ/ian= Christ Jesus a man at the core (first~last Adam/mankind/new creation)
who was raised from the dead and never murdered anyone and
is not a religion- if would like to see scriptural proof, I can provide
what your asking is to "give up" -"God so loved the world"?
why is that?

Christ/ians responsible for what?

And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.'

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

biblegateway.com

In Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free

??

Michael White, writing for the Twentieth Century Atlas, has compiled an intriguing list of body counts, attributable to the worst known acts of war, and other human atrocities, dating back to the fall of Rome. I will venture to briefly list them here by count and century:

55 million, Second World War (20C); 40 million, under Mao Zedong (20C); 40 million, Mongol Conquests(13C); 36 million, An Lushan Revolt(8C); 25 million, Fall of the Ming Dynasty(17C); 20 million, Taiping Rebellion(19C); 20 million, toll of American Indians, (15C-19C), 20 million, under Joseph Stalin(20C); 19 million, Mideast Slave Trade(7C-19C); 18 million, Atlantic Slave Trade(15C-); 17 million, Islamic Conquest of India(14C-15C); 17 million, British India(19C); 15 million, First World War(20C); 9 million, Russian Civil War(20C); 9 million, Hindu Thuggee cult killings(13C-19C); 8 million, Fall of Rome(3C-5C); 8 million, Congo Free State(19C – 20C); 7 million, Thirty Years War(17C); 5 million, Russia's Time of Troubles(16C-17C), 4 million, Napoleonic Wars(19C); 3 million, Chinese Civil War(20C); 3 million, French Wars of Religion(16C).

Taken all together, we have 401 million deaths over nearly 2000 years of war and barbarism. Just for the sake of argument, let’s add another 10%, or 40 million, to cover margins of error, and other wars. This would bring our total to 441 million deaths over the last 20 centuries.

Now, what about abortion? At the low end of the Guttmacher scale, even if we ignore all abortions done prior to 1980 when accurate numbers are a little more difficult to ascertain, abortion accounts for more than twice the number of deaths by war! In just the last 25 years, the ghastly toll for abortion has totaled over 900 million dead babies. Taking the more probable mean average, the toll rises to well over 1 billion babies; or nearly three times the amount of deaths due to war.
www.covenantnews.com...

This is an incomplete listing of some very bad things that happened before the 20th Century. I've scoured the history books and collected most of the major atrocities that anyone has bothered to enumerate.However, just because an event is missing from these pages doesn't mean that it wasn't very bloody..Maybe the 20th Century really was more barbaric than previous centuries (as some people say), but you'll need more complete statistics to prove it. [n.1]
necrometrics.com...

Body Count of the Roman Empire
•(Extremely Preliminary and Debatable) TOTAL:
◦All Punic Wars: 1.0M
◦Gladiators: 1.0M
◦Slave Wars (Servile Wars): 1.0M
◦Cimbri-Teutoni War: 0.3M
◦Social War: 0.3M
◦Mithridatic Wars: ca. 0.5M
◦Gallic War: 1.0M
◦Juleo-Claudian Paranoia: 0.028M
◦Jewish Wars: 0.4M
◦Boudica's Revolt: 0.15M
◦Decline and Fall: 7.0M
◦TOTAL: over 13.0M
necrometrics.com...

Total War Dead Throughout History
I haven't the foggiest, but here's an interesting essay on the subject: The Great "War Figures" Hoax: an investigation in polemomythology rint.rechten.rug.nl...