The Paradox of the Left/Right Political Divide and the Denial of Conspiracies

reply to post by PixelDuster


To some extent I can concur with you 100% people are placed.

Whether locally or in the Presidency.

But we as a society can influence and change this we just have to dig deeper.

As for being involved in the community I am heavily invested in just that myself.

Whether we're speaking of my being an adult leader in the Boy Scouts of America, or volunteering with the local city, or even volunteering to assist fundraising for a local women's shelter, I am effecting the change I want to see happen.

Be the change you want.

This is exactly why it saddens me, and even angers me a little, when I see people who are blindly partisan on this forum spewing venom at each other. it's one thing to have legitimate ideological difference with a fellow citizen, but when you become a shill for a political party that, ultimately, is controlled by the same people behind the "other" party, you've become part of the problem.

reply to post by PixelDuster


Honestly I have to say that in my own opinion voting in national elections is an exercise in futility.

I know for a fact that powerful corporate interests hand select and groom the candidates on both sides of the aisle, and that they are bought and paid for and tied into agendas before they even announce their candidacy.

This is in fact how the elections are rigged and while few people want to believe that a shadowy group of wealthy corporate elitists and blue bloods have that much power (this is really what the Bohemian Grove Crowd is really all about) I think a little common sense employed, would realize that with the amount of money and media exposure it takes to run for office, and the effort it takes to put together a staff, an office, and acquire voting blocks, like church and labor and other special interest groups, that the people who own and normally control all these things and have unlimited wealth could and can easily influence the process.

They don't do it in every congressional district, just the most important and populated ones, but when it comes to the Presidency they always do it, because of how important the political appointee process is to them.

Almost all of the Department Head and Cabinet Level members of Government are appointed at the discretion of the President and not elected.

These are the people that the corporate elite really want to put into office the most, the ones who make the day to day decisions and authorize the purchases and payments and can enforce, or selectively not enforce policies and laws.

Like any other huge company and the Government is the biggest employer in the United States, the Cheif Executive is pretty much a spokesperson and a delagator.

Who does he delegate to? The appointed, not ellected department heads of government.

Sure the Senate has a revue committee that can block appointments, but that's one of the reasons why they ensure that select districts always have their men and women voted into office, so they can get them onto those all important oversight and revue committees.

The whole process is corrupt, and no matter who you vote for in most races, you are voting for the corporate elites candidate.

This is why the process can't really correct itself and hasn't.

Thanks.

reply to post by TerryMcGuire


I have never before agreed with someone's choice not to vote, but I support their freedom to make that choice. But reading your post, I saw a light come on. I get why some people wouldn't want to vote. In making the choice at election time, we come to personally identify with that choice ... Very interesting.

I know how tempting (seductive) it is to take sides and defend our 'chosen' team. I fight it in myself all the time and not as successfully as I'd like. If there's one important lesson I've learned from being an active ATS member through two presidents of opposite parties, it's that I know exactly how the other side feels now.

When George Bush was president, I hated him. I blamed him for everything. I was irrationally suspicious and critical of him and the thought of trusting him turned my stomach. He was stupid, incompetent and I couldn't possibly understand how anyone could support him. I did not vote for him.

Now, people are saying these exact same things about Obama. I hear myself in them. The shoe is on the other foot. When I first realized this, I wrote this thread: I Know How You Feel

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by PixelDuster

 

Still at the end of the day most of them run the same official stories up the flag pole and salute, with some ready made label to attach to people who don't.

It really is a form of mass programming that starts with the government then extends to the media, and then on to our own cliques within society.

Oh, dear, mass programming for certain! And so completely pervasive as to boggle the mind. This should come as no surprise to this forum, however... as I'm sure the majority here are aware that only five corporations control nearly or completely all of it. When I was a lad there were at least forty or more.

Even the film and music industries participate and I don't think it's a coincidence (don't believe in those)... I'm doing a post on my blog that contains a bit of the latter and it is most disheartening.

We need better education and a truly independent non-biased media, how we are going to get it?

How, indeed. And yes, better education is necessary, for the current state of that is declining moment by moment. Believe it or not my niece actually complained about the state of it to me a couple of years or so ago... and she's now just eleven. I've always used that as a pretty good barometer.

There must be a way. A way not dependent on the internet.

I am at a loss at this point as to any idea what that way might be. Is it possible for an independent network to be manifested in the current environment? I fear not... but...

...surely, there must be a way, some way, that can reach the people.

Sigh...
Pixel

reply to post by hmdphantom

I think that these are really big problems that you are discussing about. but you are not talking about any useful way to solve these problems. It won't work when you say " Americans need to rethink the left/right divide, the word games, the labels and the stereo types, and start dealing with the real issues, and we need to do it before it’s too late. "

I agree it's not enough but its a start.

Somewhere along the line between the 1970's and today, it's become almost a crime to be critical of the government.

That didn't happen over night, but it represented a real change from an America that was often very critical and questioning of government.

Especially on the heels of Watergate.

If I had to think back two words showed up on the scene in the early 80's both made popular by Newsweek that then started running a small collumn of examples of these new important words.

Politically Correct

&

Conventional Wisdom

To those born and bred in the Internet Age you might not understand how Newsweek good have so much influence but back then pre-Internet, if you were a news junkie and you wanted to stay well informed you read Newsweek every week.

Every week they would have a page dedicated to Politically Correct Statements and statements that were not politically correct by politicians, celebrities, and captains of industry.

Every week they would have on that same page a seperate column for conventional wisdom, what was considered conventionally wise in the actions of politicians celebrities and captains of industry and what wasn't.

From there the culture of politically correct, and conventional wisdom took off and slowly took hold.

So believe it or not simple beginnings based on simple constructs repeated over and over again by more and more people do transform society.

It takes a while, in this case years, a generation or two.

We aren't going to solve America's complex problems over night, but where many of us err is we think walking to the store or peddling a bike when we can't won't hurt the oil companies, that stopping shopping at Wal-Mart isn't going to stop the exportation of jobs, and that switching our money from a huge national bank to a local one or our mattress won't make a difference, because we are just one person.

The truth is that it does make a difference and we all have to start becoming more responsible to our end.

The politicians have sung sweetly to us while we slit our own throats, but make no mistake about it, it was us that slit them, and it's only us, that can reverse the course.

Government isn't going to do it, we though in fact can.

Through our individual actions and responsibilities, that passed down the line, will eventually lead to significant change.

Thanks my friend.

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

It seems to me that these groups try to coerce and recruit more members than the opposing group or groups. They seem to be seeking a unified consensus on their particular processes and patterns. To actually disseminate their own modality far and wide while shamelessly or unknowingly imposing on every ones individual sovereignty.

We find that each group has its own ambiance or familiarized traits that we can readily associate with them. We also find that there is a commonality among them as well. They all seem to have a plan at the ready to bring about a brighter future for everyone and they all seem to have solutions to our perceived problems that we are told we are plagued with. All of them blame these current problems as being the fault of the other groups.

The systems that make up their principals and rules are enforced throughout their campaigns. The decisive use of these disciplines are calculative and their ambition and determination is clearly distinguishable between the groups. We find suddenly that the seemingly limited groups are not afforded the privilege of having the same resources at their disposal as the more seemingly influential groups.

Even though the struggling group or groups may hold the very keys we are consciously or unconsciously wishing for and know deep down would be advantageous for all, we are forced into submission by a might makes right mentality that has been ingrained and enforced in us throughout our whole lives. This is undeniable and should be mulled over carefully by those who are now able to explore such avenues of thought.

So in the end we see that our votes or decisions are not really our own. They are controlled very precisely and carefully to give us the illusion of freedom to choose a group and cast our vote for. Which is meaningless drivel compared to the drive of the mighty in their conquest. Your vote counts!

I completely agree !

I can also add that the MSM operates along the same principals.

on TV for example, we see different networks presenting their own opinions rather than just telling people the facts.

the common game is to show pictures and videos of some event while someone "talks" either about something else, or tells a slightly different and exaggerated story as they "insert" the intended information !

another ploy is to show a picture.... then have a caption that puts a specific illusion in the viewer's mind even though the picture may not actually be related to the words at all !!

TV has professional actors and onslaughts of "experts" all "talking" with their hands and what not in order to relentlessly convey the general policies of the network. the opposing network does the same thing but with the "second" side of the issues.

and of course, each side requires viewers to never question the motives and deeper agendas.

in the end, we are all confused and side-tracked and are never sure WHO to believe.

the Bin Laden issue is the latest example.

we are seeing pictures of an attack but they all lack the convincing details.

we hear the reports that also lack the necessary details.

but yet, we all must believe what we are told .... or else.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I have never before agreed with someone's choice not to vote

I think that not voting is also a form of voting.
Don't you agree?

Also as an FYI, your dog always stares at me I swear!

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
I think that not voting is also a form of voting.
Don't you agree?

I don't know... To vote (in my mind) one has to actually pick a preference. I think voting is to vote FOR or AGAINST something. I guess a choice not to vote in a national election could be seen as voting against something, but against what? To me, voting means voicing my opinion. And if someone doesn't vote, I don't know what their opinion is. It could be that they're just too tired or don't have a ride. Their voice isn't heard - it's just not there.

Also as an FYI, your dog always stares at me I swear!

reply to post by xuenchen

in the end, we are all confused and side-tracked and are never sure WHO to believe.

This is about where we all end up too. All too often the campaign that has all of the funding gets the victory and we stand by and are not surprised at all because that's the way we were groomed. It seems to me that regardless of what the candidate stands for or has done or is going to do, we understand that it was a mightier driving force after all and that is how it goes.

They seem to be able to form a public opinion that is accepted in part or in whole by the constituents of all of the available parties with these massive resources. So when they end up victorious we all feel as though we knew it all along and it is sub consciously or consciously accepted and integrated into our current regimen. We go on about our lives without missing a step, that is by the way predicted and expected, and think nothing more about it. It is amazing to me.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


This is a great thread. It makes complete sense.

Everyone, not just "conspiracy theorists", believe every politician to be a liar. Even other politicians. Look at pre election debates. Both sides use these as a tool to point out each others lies.. Like kids, really.

Intelligent debate over real issues, is an old trend.

"One upping" is the new. It happens everywhere. And here too.

The paradox goes even further, and reveals that the questions that sway from the "obey" attitude, are now also used to create a convoluted topic..

We (people and "conspiracy theorists) have inadvertently created our own fuzzy lines in everything, making any truth harder to find. Governments know this, and the "divide and conquer" technique is firmly happening. Little "propaganda" is needed from the government to fuel it. But when they do..man, it divides. OBL as an example.

I've said it before, but ...imagine if a propaganda wizard like Hitler had had the internet.

I'm finding it hard to articulate the point I wanted to make...but..I hope you get the just of it. I was just spinning off ideas from your OP.

reply to post by jackflap


It seems like far to often the easiest thing to do is to accept the partial answers and just agree with everyone else that wants to, is predisposed to, or sees a benefit in that this is what must have happened, this is the truth.

I think we have seen it again and again, on some of the topics we frequent, where people more or less reinvent the truth or history simply through their willingness and ability to get so many other people to say yes, I think that's what must have happened too.

Tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.

Question that 'truth' and you must have an agenda or motive, or be part of some opposing organized faction.

We see it over and over again on these boards, in this world.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

"The problem"?

It is not easily identifiable.

At least not on the surface.

However, "the problem", as I see it, is a lack of self-leadership.

People cannot and will not lead themselves.

They would rather not step up into the podium due to a lack of courage.

They would rather not step up into the podium due to a lack of morals.

They would rather not step up into the podium due to a lack of ethics.

So few, too few in fact, could stand toe-to-toe with the corruption, and not be bought.

I am the only person I can speak of in this regard due to my own experiences.

"The problem" is people tend to want someone to follow instead of leading themselves and others.

I like this description above so I'm going to use it to preface my addition,
on top of all that was shared in Sparts post , I would like to say that personal identification to a 'position' 99.9% of the time trumps and rules out any address of identification to "need" in problem solving engagements whether they be local or global, and as those positions are defended and attacked the needs, (of all parties, notice i didnt say sides) become buried forgotten and remain unaddressed.
What is left to sift through are ashes of confusion and ambiguity, and it is the 'perfect' place to park a populace and observe the swirling inaction, and voracious consumption of 'press releases, and media created snacks of distraction",
It's the invisible fence, the sleight of hand, the borrowed time needed to advance an agenda, on a short term memory population.
Tragedy awakens some, but only to the current tragedy not to the many planks laid prior that gave access to either remove a right you once had but didnt protect or to enact a new rule to limit your freedoms.
You HAVE TO be a good leader to yourself before you can ever recognize what a good leader would be in front of you.
You will find no integrity in ambiguity, and that has become the leaderless language.

reply to post by Demoncreeper


I sometimes fear propaganda wizards even better than Hitler do have the Internet.

The mainstream media dominates the news sites on the Internet with symplistic, repitious stories that almost never have the classic, who, what, why, when, how and where, of traditional journalism.

Just short editorialized paragraphs of non-information leading you to a clear emotional conclusion that they want you to accept as both intellectual and fact.

Yet they typically do result in having an emotional reaction and walking away with little or not hard information, just a fixed, hard position, emotionally anchored.

That is propaganda.

A lot of people don't understand that propaganda is simply the telling of an event or story for emotional effect.

The information imparted in it can even be true, but if it's written to illicit a specific emotional response, anger, fear, hatred, etc, then it's propaganda.

Our mainstream media in fact produces nothing but propaganda and people would understand and recognize that if they simply looked up the meaning of the word.

Thanks for posting my friend.

reply to post by xuenchen


Great insight my friend, pictures do often tell a thousand words, but just like those funny little ink blots that they show me every tuesday before telling me I still can't get out, what one person sees in a picture isn't always or even often what another does.

So they tell us what we should see in a picture, and far too often we strain our eyes and mind and go oh, ok, yeah, yeah, I think I see it anyway.

Well they showed it to me, therefore it must be true.

We are constantly being led to draw conclusions through various forms of peer pressure, but what's worse is if you refuse to draw the conclusion, that same conclusion, then it's presumed that's from the peer pressure of some rival group convincing you of something else.

You couldn't have figured out what your opinion is all on your own, it always has to belong to some other rival, and detested group, that now by extension you must belong to, making your conclusion as suspect and disliked as the rival group is by inference and extension.

Games with out end, where if you admit to having no master, a master is assigned to you, by people who amazingly want to tell you they are free.

Great post.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


When I first found this website and became a member, I was expecting to meet many people who could see past the illusory nature of the left/right charade. While I have done just that, I was surprised, and still am surprised, by the sheer amount of members on this site who still believe that being a Democrat or Republican matters and makes a difference.

It is difficult to have an honest debate with another person, especially when that person thinks you are only trying to smear their political party.

When I questioned the actions of the Bush administration I was accused of being a liberal, and when I question the actions of Obama's administration I am accused of being a conservative.

Its infuriating.

reply to post by dalan.


It continues to amaze me how many people flock to a conspiracy site to argue left/right political divide issues.

It seems often too like every time a big event does occur it drives in a horde of new members, many of whom want to then approach the issue from a partisan standpoint.

So it gets difficult, then, at such times, even more so, because many of the new members don't read the terms of service, and tend to often angrily dismiss those interested in deeper conversations and debates and conspiracy angles.
All to a backdrop where the staff is overwhelmed by an influx of new members and a dizzying amount of competing threads being posted in rapid order with slightly different takes and aspects to the event.

Many of those new threads started by the new members who's opening pieces often sound like they came from the Republican or Democratic National Headquarters.

The above sounds like a rant and a complaint, but many would say it's an accurate observation, that there really are no real places where a quality discussion can occur without these left/right divide constructs infecting and impeding the conversation and debate.

It really represents a supreme challenge in having a meaningful conversation that leads to meaningful questions and quality answers.

Thanks for posting my friend.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

It seems like far to often the easiest thing to do is to accept the partial answers and just agree with everyone else that wants to, is predisposed to, or sees a benefit in that this is what must have happened, this is the truth.

I think herein lies the key to altering the predispositions we have. Realize that we are predisposed and maintain for ourselves certain expectations. Even if those expectations are not in our best interests. We invite them. All politicians are crooked, what are you going to do? Ever heard that one?

I remember being told that the people who work for the American public had lost the accountability of two trillion dollars. They just couldn't account for it nor did they know where in the world it went but they were on top of it all the same and they were going to attempt to gain accountability as soon as possible. They just knew it had been spent.

I'm not even sure we revisited that confession after we were told the reasons for why we suffered great loss the day after hearing of it. Our emotions were triggered in every direction and we were handed a way to exact justice from a group of people that almost everyone had never heard of before. What did we expect?

Bush gazed around the diamond-studded $800-a-plate crowd and commented on the wealth on display. "This is an impressive crowd - the haves and the have-mores," quipped the GOP standard-bearer. "Some people call you the elites; I call you my base."

Now who else thinks it is odd that he would refer to the elites as his base? Where have I heard that before? This statement was from 2000 by the way.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/480ab46140f9.jpg[/atsimg]

www.cbsnews.com...

There are those that expect to be told how things have happened and why. I will go so far as to say that they actually yearn to be told what they are predisposed to hearing. They need to be reassured of their safety and well being inside the predisposed comfort that they are afforded in the system that they are told is right and good.

Its almost as if we have all been taught very sadistically to maintain this status quo or it can be made much worse. We don't want to believe that we are in fact being held hostage so we play the charade. As long as they do not disenchant us and let us believe the heroic tale that is being spun for us. Oh please do not lower the curtain on this play.

We watched and disregarded as unbelievable when Cheney and his firm Halliburton took over all private contracting programs for the U.S. military globally as our war machine's tempo began to accelerate at fantastic speeds. We seen all this right before our eyes but were determined to see something different. We asked and actually demanded to be lied to. All of this just couldn't be, where is my fairy tale?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Excellent post. I guess, because I'm neither party - I'm an Ethical Planetarian - I don't see the partisanship as much. To me, as You said, the two parties are the same at the basic level - and electing either one is an election of the same old same old.

Yes, I think We need to become Questioning Americans, not "conspiracy" this or "paranoid" that. Not Democrat, not Republican.

Sadly, though... I don't think there's hope for this country - unless we can get electrogravitics out of black ops. Plenum energy would solve the issues.

reply to post by jackflap


You hit on a very big key in why so many of these lies stand, and that's because people are pre-disposed to wanting to hear certain things that validate their own fears, thoughts, beliefs, or hopes.



Many would say this is what the Council for Foreign Relations, Tavistock Institute and others are all about.

That cold calculating desire to understand the psychology of the human mind and exploit it through deliberate deceptions and manipulations that appeal to it.

Much like religion where people acquire a sometimes seemingly desperate need to believe, much of what the Official Stories are, is those calculated attempts to tell people either what they want to hear and or tell them what will effect them emotionally towards a desired and predetermined reaction.

The best lies contain a grain of truth, and if that grain that is offer is the one that you most desire hearing, then swallowing the rest of what comes with it, does in fact become much easier.

Some would say it long ago became evident the government has no interest in informing us, but rather programing us.

Great post by friend.

Thanks.