The Paradox of the Left/Right Political Divide and the Denial of Conspiracies

Originally posted by wonderworld

O.K since I dont wish to argue with you about what % we pay to keep the federal and state government running I'll simply agree you dont pay 31% , 45% or 50%. I also never asked for your tax statements or wished to know how much you paid in.

Backpedaling you are. I am not arguing the statistic. I am asking why you stated one thing, then turned around and claimed another, contradicting yourself.

Regardless, it's all off topic and you are showing no signs of being able to stick by your word I will refrain from this line of debate with you from this point on. I refer to engage with those who can debate a point without moving the goal posts every other post.

Originally posted by wonderworld
reply to post by xuenchen

 

These were peacefull protests, some of the costs were to arrest people reading the pledge of allegiance. They werent out throwing rocks or grenades.

of course !

that's how they react.

TPTB were (are) scared to death of anything that makes sense.

that is one reason we always see confusing and conflicting reports on everything.

another "step" would be for them to infiltrate and install "instigators" to give any movement the illusion of being violent.

it happened in the 60's.

good observations

Originally posted by incrediblelousminds

Originally posted by wonderworld

O.K since I dont wish to argue with you about what % we pay to keep the federal and state government running I'll simply agree you dont pay 31% , 45% or 50%. I also never asked for your tax statements or wished to know how much you paid in.

Backpedaling you are. I am not arguing the statistic. I am asking why you stated one thing, then turned around and claimed another, contradicting yourself.

Regardless, it's all off topic and you are showing no signs of being able to stick by your word I will refrain from this line of debate with you from this point on. I refer to engage with those who can debate a point without moving the goal posts every other post.

I prefer not to entertain you by stating my opinions. I have noticed you have jumped from thread to thread today not only insulting me but others. I think you know what I mean and it’s againt ATS rules, especially the comment on the other thread to Sam.

reply to post by poet1b

As long as you don't go preaching free market ideology.

The crap TPTB peddle as "Free Market" these days is an abomination. It is just more twisting of words by the multinational cartels. CAFTA, NAFTA and WTO are NOT about "free market" they are about wiping out small businesses in third world countries and reintroducing economic slavery.

How the heck is it a "free Market" when a subsistence farmer in Mexico is "competing" with an American farmer receiving "Farm Aid" for growing corn AND working a full time job?

...At a recent press conference in May when the German Chancellor Angela Merkel was visiting Mexico, he said that high levels of subsidies available to European and US farmers had a debilitating effect on the competitiveness of Mexican farmers, resulting in a large number of his compatriots migrating to the US "abandoning land, because it was simply impossible to compete with subsidies in other countries"[5]....

Transnational agri-business tends to have much closer links with larger farmers and producers, who have better access to land, irrigation and credit, all of which are scarce commodities for small farmers[16], particularly after the withdrawal of the state. And the little state assistance that remains tends to inordinately favour larger farmers. Little wonder then that it is the larger farmers that have taken advantage of global integration and changing cropping patterns and now account for a larger proportion of domestic markets.

Alongside this, as hoped for by designers of NAFTA, has been 'modernisation' - a sharp decline in the share of agriculture and allied sectors in the workforce. From nearly 27% in 1991 it declined to slightly less than 15% in 2006, losing more than 2 million jobs[17]. Again small and marginal farmers and agricultural labour bore the brunt, as evidenced by very sharp decline in the number of rural households. According to a study by Jose Romero and Alicia Puyana carried out for the federal government of Mexico, between 1992 and 2002, the number of agricultural households fell an astounding 75% - from 2.3 million to 575, 000[18]. www.networkideas.org...

This next article is from December 2007 BEFORE Russia, Australia, Mexico and now the USA have had crop failures. Playing ducks and drakes with our world food supply is nothing more than MASS MURDER as far as I am concerned.

In 2008, nearly 9 million children died before they reached their fifth birthday. One third of these deaths are due directly or indirectly to hunger and malnutrition. While those children were starving three companies, Archer Daniels Midland, Cargill, and Bunge control the world’s grain trade. Chemical giant Monsanto controls three-fifths of seed production. Unsurprisingly, in the last quarter of 2007, even as the world food crisis was breaking, Archer Daniels Midland’s profits jumped 20%, Monsanto 45%, and Cargill 60%. Former President Clinton made it very clear that the WTO "free market" policies that CAUSED the problem were intentional.

Bill Clinton, now the UN Special Envoy to Haiti, publicly apologized last month for forcing Haiti to drop tariffs on imported, subsidized US rice during his time in office. The policy wiped out Haitian rice farming and seriously damaged Haiti’s ability to be self-sufficient.

...The risks of food riots and malnutrition will surge in the next two years as the global supply of grain comes under more pressure than at any time in 50 years, according to one of the world's leading agricultural researchers.

Recent pasta protests in Italy, tortilla rallies in Mexico and onion demonstrations in India are just the start of the social instability to come unless there is a fundamental shift to boost production of staple foods, Joachim von Braun, the head of the International Food Policy Research Institute, warned...

"Demand is running away. The world has been consuming more than it produces for five years now. Stocks of grain - of rice, wheat and maize - are down at levels not seen since the early 80s," said von Braun, whose organisation is the world's largest alliance of agricultural researchers, economists, and policy experts.

So far, crises have been averted because states have eaten into national stocks, but this could be set to change because China, in particular, has run down its supplies.... www.guardian.co.uk...

On May 1, 2008, The USDA anounced "The cupboard is bare" US food surpluses had run out. Meanwhile The Grain traders chortled with glee

“In summary, we have record low grain inventories globally as we move into a new crop year. We have demand growing strongly. Which means that going forward even small crop failures are going to drive grain prices to record levels. As an investor, we continue to find these long term trends...very attractive.” Food shortfalls predicted: 2008 www.financialsense.com...

“Recently there have been increased calls for the development of a U.S. or international grain reserve to provide priority access to food supplies for Humanitarian needs. The National Grain and Feed Association (NGFA) and the North American Export Grain Association (NAEGA) strongly advise against this concept..Stock reserves have a documented depressing effect on prices... and resulted in less aggressive market bidding for the grains.” July 22, 2008 letter to President Bush www.naega.org...

Hope that makes my position on "free market" clear

(Darn I think I will have to replace my keyboard, I think I singed it )

reply to post by incrediblelousminds

Wow. That's lot. I pay about 25% at the end of the year. How are you getting 45%?

The problem, and one most people make, is you are not adding up ALL the taxes you pay.

Federal, State, Sales, SS, medicare, medicaid and then all the "hidden" taxes
restaurant tax, hotel room tax,tax on your phone, tax on your electric bill, Property tax on the place you live (rented or owned you still pay it)

"A third of the cost of a gallon of gas is tax, half the cost of a pack of cigarettes and last I checked (20 years ago), there were 109 different taxes on a loaf of bread before you paid sales tax on the loaf and carried it home.' - JB Williams

"If people need any more concrete explanation of this, start with the staff of life, a loaf of bread. The simplest thing; the poorest man must have it. Well, there are 151 taxes now in the price of a loaf of bread — it accounts for more than half the cost of a loaf of bread. It begins with the first tax, on the farmer that raised the wheat..." - President Ronald Reagan


Actually it is more like 70 to 80% of your wages by the time you pay all the hidden taxes.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

...."The problem" is people tend to want someone to follow instead of leading themselves and others.

....During the '70s, researchers began to test the effectiveness of "chemical therapy" using Ritalin in the classroom as a way to deal with student behavior and attention problems. In order to see if "chemical therapy" was the answer,

teachers with no medical background were given the authority to prescribe Ritalin to their students.

It was believed this method of treatment would take care of any "discipline problems" the children had, so the teachers could focus more on educating students, rather than correcting behaviors.

In the 1970s, around 150,000 children were taking Ritalin. Just four years later, in 1974, the number had climbed up to 500,000 children. By 1977 there were an estimated 1.8 million kids using Ritalin on a day-to-day basis. Between 1990 and 2000, the production of Ritalin in the United States increased seven-fold. In 1991 over 3 million prescriptions for Ritalin were written. By 1998, over 11 million Ritalin prescriptions were written.... www.cpyu.org...

It seems that some private schools did not (do not) go along with the ritalin program because the parents were (are) aware of the problems.

We sent our daughter to a private grade school in the Chicago area in the 80's and 90's.

The school admin was dead set against the ritalin thing as were all the parents.

and guess what ?

when those kids went to public high schools (and colleges), it was pretty easy for them to "accel" as the competition was minimal.

My daughter still spots the tell tale signs of people now as adults who were probably (and still may be) on ritalin !

I have friends who told the same story in suburban areas that were heavily "Jewish". The public schools in those areas had a "quiet" taboo on ritalin !

No small wonder some groups seem to move up the ladders without stumbling !

I also believe there has been a "dumb-down" effort with food.

I call it the "aspartame/GMO/MSG" complex.

the food gets the kids early on, and the adults too.

mix all that with ritalin and we see the results !!!!!!

reply to post by xuenchen


A.D.D., A.D.H.D., bi-polar, these are all labels with medication affixed to them as a cure.

Well, not so much a cure, but something to negate the action, the acitivity levels of the brain.

What these kids most likley need is something which will keep their mind busier.

All of those symptoms of each only tells of higher brain activity and more imagination.

Structure, discipline, and high educational challenges can solve this not pumping them full of medicine.

Especially not medicine which makes them stupider and more apathetic.

It also takes parents who are interested in being parents not in being workaholics.

But this is a part of the "work, work, work, pay, pay, pay" scheme against America.

It has a lot to do with a lack of self-control and a lack of being able to wait patiently.

I am of course referencing delayed gratification for purchasing items people do not need.

Society is all screwed up with idiotic the mentality that a car is something of a status symbol.



From the Keeping Up With the Joneses Mentality.

Society is all screwed up with idiotic the mentality that a house is something of a status symbol.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2daffa1c9ae0.jpg[/atsimg]

From the Keeping Up With the Joneses Mentality.

Society is all screwed up with idiotic the mentality that a job is something of a status symbol.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/8d593e9abc85.jpg[/atsimg]

From the Keeping Up With the Joneses Mentality.

They are not status symbols whatsoever by any means nor by any stretch of the imagination.

Furthermore these are the areas where people believe, falsely believing I might add, that they have to be different, because they were not allowed to be different in school, had to fit in, had to run with a certain clique, or do what a certain peer pressure forced upon them. They believe, falsely believing, I say again, that the 9 to 5 cubicle Hell of a job is the only way to work and "be human" according to society. Then they see a bright and shiny bauble and have to have it because their cubicle-buddy the next prison wall over has it.

And we wonder why these idiots snap and come back with an AK-47 and kill the entire office?

9 to 5 - Dolly Parton with lyrics


And then Hollywood "celebrates" it by promoting this inane behavior through funny movies.

Where people can feel the "yes, that's me" feeling and then the next stimulus is thrown in.

Then the behavior modification begins again.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

And then Hollywood "celebrates" it by promoting this inane behavior through funny movies. Where people can feel the "yes, that's me" feeling and then the next stimulus is thrown in. Then the behavior modification begins again.

Very nice break down of the process Spartan. Funny movies, scary movies, action movies, sitcoms and any other type of cinema production replete with our favorite celebrities all vie for the masses to emulate and become. It really isn't so apparent to many which means they are left feeling as though they'll never achieve or become. That's where the pharmaceuticals begin because many are obviously depressed about themselves and their situation or their past which is nothing like what they are led to believe is reality. What a tangled web to unravel. I can go on and on.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Good to hear, I hope that at last, people are starting to wake up to what a scam the whole free market concept has been. To me, it is just another form of communism. Sounds nice on paper, but the reality is a complete undermining of individual rights and democracy.

Along with the left pushing affirmative action and special interest groups, which grossly distorts history, actually encourages bigotry, and pits working class people against each other.

The two parties form a left right punch to the nose of the average person, working together to strip us of our rights and dignity.

reply to post by xuenchen

I call it the "aspartame/GMO/MSG" complex.

Actually it is all the blasted high fructose corn syrup and sugar they now put into everything. The stuff is a slow poison for our system. Soft drinks and candy bars in vending machines at schools should be yanked instead of doping up the kids!

High fructose processed foods linked to obesity, gout, hypertension, diabetes, cholesterol and fatty liver

... Food manufacturers have been adding pure fructose to foods in the quest to lower the glycaemic index (GI) of the food because fructose does not affect insulin production therefore is considered to be a low GI sugar (this is contrast to glucose which does raise insulin levels). The food industry have also been adding fructose in the form of corn syrup (popular in the United States) or sucrose (this is half fructose) to foods, especially low fat/diet foods to improve flavour. There is emerging evidence that this may be making the obesity epidemic even worse, starting with damage to our liver cells, the hepatocytes.

The only organ in your body that can take up fructose is your liver and this is where the problem begins. In contrast, glucose can be taken up by every organ in the body, only 20% of glucose load ends up at your liver - the rest is metabolised by muscles, brain, kidneys, heart etc. .

Fructose increases uric acid which in turn increases blood pressure and causes gout (where uric acid crystals are deposited in joints)

Fructose increases phosphate depletion of the hepatocyte which ultimately causes an increase in uric acid. Uric acid is an inhibitor of nitric oxide - nitric oxide is your naturally occurring blood pressure lowerer.

Fructose increases fat production in the liver (also known as denovo lipogenesis) which in turn increases blood fats like cholesterol and triglycerides (glucose does not do this) and liver fat (which could result in non-alcoholic fatty liver disease). In fact fructose is being metabolised via the same pathway as alcohol and is actually damaging your liver in the the same way as alcohol. Fructose causes deposition of fat within the liver so it is actually like alcohol and alcohol is like a fat. So in contrast to glucose, it can be said that fructose behaves like a fat.

Fructose increases inflammation which in turn increases insuln levels in the long term: fructose initiates an enzyme called Junk one in the liver which stimulates the inflammation pathway. This in turn stops the insulin receptor in your liver from working resulting in higher insulin levels in the body (pancreas responds to this situation by pumping out more insulin in the hope to get the insulin working) . Eventually insulin resistance sets in where your insulin receptors are no longer responding to the excessive amounts of insulin and thus less glucose gets into the cells and more remains in the blood (this is when diabetes is diagnosed). High insulin levels stimulate the conversion of sugar to fat which means you will be storing more fat in the liver (which could result in non-alcoholic fatty liver disease) and more fat in fat cells, especially around the abdomen and internal organs (resulting in abdominal/visceral obesity).

Fructose doesn't raise your insulin in the short term because there's no fructose receptor on your beta cell in your pancreas which produces insulin but there is a receptor for glucose (fat also does not increase insulin production). However, in the long term fructose will raise insulin due to the effects on inflammation in the liver which in turn can make you insulin resistant (mentioned above).....



Source: ABC Health Report - Dr Norman Swan interviews Obesity expert Dr Robert Lustig Professor of Pediatric Endocrinology, University of California www.abc.net.au... www.healthyeatingclub.org...

And all those candy bars and burgers.....

Physiologic Effects of Insulin

Insulin is a key player in the control of intermediary metabolism, and the big picture is that it organizes the use of fuels for either storage or oxidation. Through these activities, insulin has profound effects on both carbohydrate and lipid metabolism, and significant influences on protein and mineral metabolism. Consequently, derangements in insulin signalling have widespread and devastating effects on many organs and tissues....

In other words major over doses of fructose screw up you whole body and especially the brain that is dependent on glucose for food!

I find if I eat over 20 to 30 gr of carbs in a day it will mess me up for not only that day but for about 72 hours!

Darn I can not find my reference with the exact numbers...

Oh well. Some one looked at the historical diet for the last couple of centuries. The number of carbs consumed on average has gone from under 30 gr to well over 200 gr surging sharply in the last half century. Couple this with a more sedentary life style and it is no wonder we now have health problems!

Metabolism Conference: The History of Low-Carb Diets

...Following the obesity conference, I attended the annual symposium of the Metabolism Society (used to be the Nutrition and Metabolism Society and is considering returning to that name). This group is, as far as I know, the only organized group which focuses on the science of how diet influences metabolic processes such as those that affect diabetes, metabolic syndrome, etc...

...Again, a highlight was a talk by Gary Taubes, this time on the history of low-carb diets. (I am definitely going to write an article about this.) The main point is that basically since we have had records of people dieting, the primary method has been limiting carbohydrate. Gary cited numerous examples in the historical record. In fact, the ONLY time this hasn't been the case is the last 35 years....

[I leave out many interesting studies]

....Eric Kossoff works with children with seizure disorders at Johns Hopkins and spoke about the success they have had using ketogenic and modified Atkins diets for children with epilepsy and other neurological disorders, and how there is preliminary evidence that they may help some adults as well.... lowcarbdiets.about.com...

If I didn't know better I would think there was a conspiracy to MAKE us sick... Oh wait I forgot the Rockefeller's OWN the medical industry....

reply to post by poet1b

...Along with the left pushing affirmative action and special interest groups, which grossly distorts history, actually encourages bigotry, and pits working class people against each other....

It is also a gross insult to the "special interest group"

Think about it.

Everyone takes a test (ie Civil Service Exam) to see who is most qualified for a position and then ten points are added to the score for the "poor underdog"

When you consider affirmative action educational bussing has been going on for at least two generations so the "educational opportunities" have been equalized, one must reasonably conclude the politicians secretly believes Blacks and Hispanics are not as smart as whites males.

But then again TPTB think we are ALL subhuman cattle so I guess that is to be expected.

Not only does it perpetuate racism, it puts poorly qualified people in positions they should not hold promoting feelings of inadequacy and destroying productivity.

People should be judged on their merits, ability and desire to do the job PERIOD!

Originally posted by jackflap
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

And then Hollywood "celebrates" it by promoting this inane behavior through funny movies. Where people can feel the "yes, that's me" feeling and then the next stimulus is thrown in. Then the behavior modification begins again.

Very nice break down of the process Spartan. Funny movies, scary movies, action movies, sitcoms and any other type of cinema production replete with our favorite celebrities all vie for the masses to emulate and become. It really isn't so apparent to many which means they are left feeling as though they'll never achieve or become. That's where the pharmaceuticals begin because many are obviously depressed about themselves and their situation or their past which is nothing like what they are led to believe is reality. What a tangled web to unravel. I can go on and on.

Of course, jackflap, and thank you.

It creates a "virtual sense of self" for people to rebel only in their minds through imagination.

Meanwhile, crippling them of any real thoughts on the rebellion, because they feel inferior.

The people are left with an overwhelming sense of downtrodden uselessness.

And the cycle begins again.

Work, fun, medicate, work, fun, medicate, a hamster wheel of idiocy and inane actions.

To never truly find happiness except through competition of who is better than their cubicle-buddy.

To never truly find happiness except through competition of who is a better neighbor with greener grass.

To never truly find happiness except through competition of who has the better house.

To never truly find happiness except through competition of who has the better car.

Except the "Joneses" are the only ones winning this game.

Ever wonder why they call it "Keeping Up With the Joneses"?

It is not just because "the Joneses" were some nice neighbors to keep up with.

It is the same as "Jonesing For A Fix" of a crack-addicted whore.

Too busy pumping her veins full of crack and getting John's to eat.

After a time the "crack" for the common worker is their lack of self-esteem and lack of will-power.

And they're looking for the next vein they can jab their needle of "self-loathing" with.

reply to post by crimvelvet


Yeah, I made this observation long ago. Here is a thread I started on the subject, in case you are interested.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think most moderate liberals see this problem. What is keeping moderates from coming together is that so many on the conservative side still want to embrace free market theory, but slowly, they are starting to recognize what a con job the whole free market line really is.

With the two party system, we are left bargaining with one devil or the other.

If moderates could come together, we could create a party that truly represents all but the extremists, throwing off the policies that favor the super rich and minorities, and pushing those ideologies out to the extremes where they belong, and create policies which again provide opportunity and liberty for all.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by poet1b

 

...Along with the left pushing affirmative action and special interest groups, which grossly distorts history, actually encourages bigotry, and pits working class people against each other....

It is also a gross insult to the "special interest group"

Think about it.

Everyone takes a test (ie Civil Service Exam) to see who is most qualified for a position and then ten points are added to the score for the "poor underdog"

When you consider affirmative action educational bussing has been going on for at least two generations so the "educational opportunities" have been equalized, one must reasonably conclude the politicians secretly believes Blacks and Hispanics are not as smart as whites males.

But then again TPTB think we are ALL subhuman cattle so I guess that is to be expected.

Not only does it perpetuate racism, it puts poorly qualified people in positions they should not hold promoting feelings of inadequacy and destroying productivity.

People should be judged on their merits, ability and desire to do the job PERIOD!

Though I do not agree with affirmative action (schools and universities), work place discrimination is a real problem. Studies have been done where resumes were sent to prospective employers virtually identical except for some marker of ethnicty (Tyrone Jackson, Jose Rodriguez, Jen Wang-Li, James Smith etc..) and the results came back lopsided towards the causian sounding name. That being said, I don't believe laws should be in place to "even the odds". It's a good example of a REAL world problem trying to be fixed by a backwards law.

Affirmative action through test scores is beyond dumb and unconstitutional. As long as you score well and aren't discriminated afterwards (class = poor with high score, overlooked for class = rich with medicore score and the latter accepted over the former) then I see no reason to give bonuses just for being a minority.

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas


The whole disposable society, planned obsolescence market system serves two purposes.

One, it keeps people too busy to stand up for their rights.

Two, it enables the elites to siphon off all the wealth created by the working classes.

With modern productivity capabilities, we should all be working 20 hour or less weeks, providing the basic necessities for a good life, and the rest we could spending time raising our children, and pursuing more quality experiences.

Instead, our productive capabilities are being used to force people out of the system, create unnecessary division, and get us fighting amongst each other, like rats, for resources/access to resources/jobs, when we have more resources than we need.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


I don't know where, when, or how that study was done, but it wouldn't be true where I live.

You send a resume to a company, the group doing the hiring will predominately choose someone who matches the ethnic group that is doing the hiring, and this is very evident, and quite obvious. Affirmative action does nothing about this blatant discrimination.

A great many white middle managers will not hire whites to work in production on the floor, because the whites will actually stand up for their rights, written in as laws, where as the minorities, will do what ever they are told.

Those white middle management college educated liberals and conservatives love being the masta, while acting morally superior.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms

 

I don't know where, when, or how that study was done, but it wouldn't be true where I live.

I'm sure it wouldn't, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen elsewhere.

You send a resume to a company, the group doing the hiring will predominately choose someone who matches the ethnic group that is doing the hiring, and this is very evident, and quite obvious. Affirmative action does nothing about this blatant discrimination.

Hence the reason why I said the law allowing affirmative action is backwards. I don't agree with the law at all, but there is a reason why it was put in place the first time around and that was to combat obvious discrimination. Those that believe there's no racism in this day and age are living in a fantasy world.

A great many white middle managers will not hire whites to work in production on the floor, because the whites will actually stand up for their rights, written in as laws, where as the minorities, will do what ever they are told.

That's a generatization/exaggeration that opens up new light on how you see minorities.

reply to post by Chewingonmushrooms


Actually it is a statement of observed behavior, and a repetition of what I have been told by others, on how these white middle class managers see minorities, by many, including minorities.

Not all white middle class managers think this way.

Not all minorities think this way.

Not in my opinion.

Many of the "tendacies" observed aren't necessarily a minority thing but rather a class/generational thing. Many of poor whites and new generation "need to have it now" are guilty of the same observed behaviors. But I do understand what you are saying to a certain extent, I'm just not one that likes generalizations especially negative ones based on race. It's all gravy though, still starred a few of your posts on this thread.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by xuenchen

 

I call it the "aspartame/GMO/MSG" complex.

Actually it is all the blasted high fructose corn syrup and sugar they now put into everything. The stuff is a slow poison for our system. Soft drinks and candy bars in vending machines at schools should be yanked instead of doping up the kids!

you are quite right !

I will amend my thinking to include "high fructose corn syrup and sugar".

trouble is, I like all that crap !

great input as always.