So you think "Chemtrails" are real huh? Here's some debunking for ya!

Originally posted by User8911
Just like any conspiracy, it's just a plausible possibility. And to deny that is it a POSSIBILITY on a CONSPIRACY internet forum, is just weird.

I don't think people are denying it is possible. Obviously it's possible.

People are just pointing out that there's no evidence that it's actually happening.

Ok so just from a briefly looking at the website this guy has no idea what people are talking about. Those aren't chemtrails in his link they are just exhaust trails from planes. The different between those and the trails now are that those in the link will have dispersed in 15 to 20 minutes after being made you can see in one that it's clearly been there for a few minutes because it's already fading.

The trails left by some planes now not only stay there but when I say they get big, I mean they get BIG. Within half an hour the trail goes from regular looking jet exhaust to being 10-15 times as wide as it began and makes a long thin cloud. Once again, it doesn't go away. Look at the streams now a days if there's not much wind. You will be able to see the full sized cloud almost an hour to an hour and a half later still spreading and by this time another plane has crossed it and that trail is spreading.

Now I'm not totally sure what it is because chem trails aren't something I have kept up with. However it doesn't mean that I deny their existence. I SEE them and I know they are there. I remember being a kid and looking up watching big 747's flying through the air. and I remember watching their trails disperse within 15 minutes and start fading to nothingness. Now I just notice thate instead of trails the planes make clouds. They criss cross and with their spreading long lasting trails they end up being clouds that cover the sky.

I don't know about anywhere else but around Fort Bragg NC the sky will be perfectly clear and in 3-4 hours it's been sky-dusted to form a massive cloud over Bragg and the surrounding areas. And I could also prove that they fly in a grid that evenly spaced the trails. So, like I said, I am not very concerned about them because I haven't payed attention to many theories on it but it is something I've noticed around my neck of the woods.

Originally posted by jaydeePNW
I saw a PBS show with some hippie "scientists" and a inacurate testing method claiming the aluminum levels were much higher when taken after jets fly over.... They had a little girl out there taking the tests in pond.... That is the problem with PBS. Anyone with the cash can air their show no matter how misleading it is.

edit on 4-5-2011 by jaydeePNW because: spelling

edit on 4-5-2011 by jaydeePNW because: (no reason given)

Whoa, hold on their cowboy. I think you mean Public Access....not PBS...They couldn't be more different....PBS doesn't allow people to broadcast their own stuff....Public Access does. Also PBS is non profit....and actually Public Access is generally free for anyone to broadcast just about whatever they want short of porn..At least it is so in my State.....so I'm not sure what you mean by 'anyone with cash'.
No offense meant.
Just thought I'd make the record strait on that issue.

reply to post by InnerPeace2012


So debunking the fact that the sky looks different now than it ever did (which is basically the MAIN reason people give for thinking there are Chemtrails) is meaningless? Explain why you think this.

Originally posted by Cataclysmo

I don't know about anywhere else but around Fort Bragg NC the sky will be perfectly clear and in 3-4 hours it's been sky-dusted to form a massive cloud over Bragg and the surrounding areas.

This exact same thing has been noticed for over 50 years:

contrailscience.com...

See this 1955 newspaper, which says "An extremely persistent contrail might stay in the sky all day"
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fdec44e38a77.jpeg[/atsimg]

Note you say you remember trails lasting 15 minutes. If you talk to some chemtrail theorists they will tell you they don't remember that, at that it's impossible for a trail to last more than a few seconds. People remember different things.

Originally posted by Cataclysmo

Now I'm not totally sure what it is because chem trails aren't something I have kept up with. However it doesn't mean that I deny their existence. I SEE them and I know they are there. I remember being a kid and looking up watching big 747's flying through the air. and I remember watching their trails disperse within 15 minutes and start fading to nothingness. Now I just notice thate instead of trails the planes make clouds. They criss cross and with their spreading long lasting trails they end up being clouds that cover the sky.

I

When you were a kid did you get out your watch and time them, or watch them for any length of time, did you make observations over periods of days or weeks? Not knowing how old you are, aircraft travel has increased so much in the past 20 yrs. I don't remember noticing contrails when I was a kid, but they were there, and they did persist depending on conditions.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Hally Burton

 

Two things about high-altitude cloud cover:

• It is transient, in the long term....does not last permanently.
  
  
• Clouds, from above, are reflective....they increase the albedo of the surface (much like snow) .... this, during daylight, of course. Hence, a bit less heating. Conversely, after sundown, when aloft they can act as a sort of thermal blanket, trapping accumulated heat energy, to prevent radiation into the upper atmosphere, and into space.

When you say it is transient and does not last permanently, do you mean that the clouds created by the trails disappear altogether, or do the ice particles (including the soot nuclie held within) spread out and are still in the atmosphere?

If they are still in the atmosphere, is it possible that they could travel towards the poles?

Chemtrails have been around forever. People who believe something nefarious is going on with this are drinking their own bath water...

There are REAL LEGITIMATE conspiracies but this is not one of them.

Originally posted by Hally Burton
When you say it is transient and does not last permanently, do you mean that the clouds created by the trails disappear altogether, or do the ice particles (including the soot nuclie held within) spread out and are still in the atmosphere?

If they are still in the atmosphere, is it possible that they could travel towards the poles?

Contrails are just clouds, and so they behave the same as other clouds. The ice will eventually sublime back to water vapor, or the ice crystals will sink down to warmer levels, where they will melt and evaporate. Vary rarely it might reach the ground if it's very cold at ground level.

The actual amount of water and particulates created by aircraft is minuscule compared to other sources. Most of the water you see in a persistent spreading contrail is water that was already in the atmosphere.

I used to think The idea of chemtrails was dumb. But then one day I saw 30 of them in less than an hour, and then it was cloudy for days. You could see then spreading out and becoming clouds. There is no way I could deny cloudseeding is going on today.

Originally posted by Ghost375
I used to think The idea of chemtrails was dumb. But then one day I saw 30 of them in less than an hour, and then it was cloudy for days. You could see then spreading out and becoming clouds. There is no way I could deny cloudseeding is going on today.

Did you consider that the large number of persistent contrail might have been indicative of a change in the weather? Such as an approaching front? The National Weather Service does:

www.wrh.noaa.gov...

"As a matter of fact, sailors have known for some time to look specifically at the patterns and persistence of jet contrails for weather forecasting. On days where the contrails disappear quickly or don't even form, they can expect continuing good weather, while on days where they persist, a change in the weather pattern may be expected."

Originally posted by Uncinus
Titling that report "Aviation condensation doubles warming" is rather misleading. The report only suggests that the warming effect from contrails is twice that of the warming effect from the CO2 in those contrail, not total globals CO2 emissions. Aviation CO2 is only a small fraction (3%) of total global CO2.

The amount that contrails contribute to climate forcing (global warming) is really unknown, and estimates are int he range of 2% to 14%. The possibility that it's at the high end of that range makes it well worth investigating. But it's not "doubling warming".

Refs:
www.nature.com...
www.nature.com...
And check the "related content" on either of those.

Ok, I don't know what happened with this post as it was having difficulty loading, But to repeat what I said.

But nevertheless the problem is still there despite the numbers, although it might not quite be the doubling suggested.
If there was heavy air traffic for a week in a certain area and the contrails persisted covering the sky, would it follow that heat could be trapped in the same are creating a hot spot?

reply to post by Uncinus

.... sailors have known for some time to look specifically at the patterns and persistence of jet contrails for weather forecasting.....

Even for centuries, long before airplanes were ever invented.

One version of a rhyming ditty, to be used by mariners:

Red sky at night, sailors' delight!

Red sky in morning, sailors take warning....

For those who don't believe, look it up.....

Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by Hally Burton
When you say it is transient and does not last permanently, do you mean that the clouds created by the trails disappear altogether, or do the ice particles (including the soot nuclie held within) spread out and are still in the atmosphere?

If they are still in the atmosphere, is it possible that they could travel towards the poles?

Contrails are just clouds, and so they behave the same as other clouds. The ice will eventually sublime back to water vapor, or the ice crystals will sink down to warmer levels, where they will melt and evaporate. Vary rarely it might reach the ground if it's very cold at ground level.

The actual amount of water and particulates created by aircraft is minuscule compared to other sources. Most of the water you see in a persistent spreading contrail is water that was already in the atmosphere.

Not quite, contrails contain a soot nuclei, that may actually create a mirroring affect.

Aircraft engine soot as contrail nuclei

The physico-chemical properties of aircraft engine soot are characterized with respect to their ability to act as CCN. Comparison with laboratory-generated kerosene soot shows a significant influence of combustion conditions on the morphology, microstructure, chemical composition, surface nature, and hygroscopicity of soot. Engine soot particles separate into two components based on composition and structural heterogeneities: a main soot fraction and a fraction of impurities containing an appreciable amount of metal and sulfur. The high concentration of soluble sulfates, of inorganics and of organics in the fraction that contains impurities, explains the engine soot hygroscopicity and its ability to act as CCN at threshold conditions for contrail formation. Laboratory–generated kerosene soot is not able to reproduce the hygroscopicity of engine soot, but we show that it is a good surrogate for the insoluble black carbon fraction of aircraft soot in the upper troposphere.

Link

reply to post by Hally Burton



Good questions....nice to see an engagement.

When you say it is transient and does not last permanently, do you mean that the clouds created by the trails disappear altogether, or do the ice particles (including the soot nuclei held within) spread out and are still in the atmosphere?

ALL clouds are transient. You may not realize this, in human time scales....if you search video sites for "time lapse clouds" it becomes much more evident.

In addition, of course, upper level winds play factors. These are varied, and different seasonally, and globally.

In terms of the soots, or any other particulates needed for condensation nuclei....these are sourced from many natural phenomena, as well as anthropomorphic activities (Human pollution....both ground-based, mostly....and some from aircraft).

Ocean salts in the air, for instance....can also act as condensation nuclei....most people are unaware of this.

If they are still in the atmosphere, is it possible that they could travel towards the poles?

Earth's atmospheric circulation patterns are always being studied. Due to the planet's rotation, winds generally tend to be West/East in direction. Localized flows can occur, though....and this due to Coriolis effect, and also can be caused by orthographic flow influences.

There is no simplistic answer, it is always a very complex system, the atmosphere.

Originally posted by joelatour
reply to post by bhornbuckle75

 

Believe it or not I found this interesting article about a drunk pilot admitting to the spraying of chemtrails who he works for and some other good info

www.2012theawakening.com...

Its about a drunk pilot (I don't even think they mention his name) of which the article says he spilled the beans when he" attempted to impress one of the pretty ladies".
So please tell me again why I should trust some drunk trying to impress some chick?

Originally posted by Hally Burton
Not quite, contrails contain a soot nuclei, that may actually create a mirroring affect.

A mirroring effect? Do you mean make the polar ice caps less reflective, so they absorb more heat?

Contrails don't NEED soot as condensation nuclei. The soot just adds to the existing potential nuclei. An engine burning pure hydrogen would produce no soot, but still produce a contrail.

Side note, 93% of aviation is in the northern hemisphere, but most of the landlocked ice is in the southern hemisphere, so even if there was some local reflective radiative forcing issue from soot in aircraft exhaust, it would (in theory) not effect sea levels much.

Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by Hally Burton
Not quite, contrails contain a soot nuclei, that may actually create a mirroring affect.

A mirroring effect? Do you mean make the polar ice caps less reflective, so they absorb more heat?

Contrails don't NEED soot as condensation nuclei. The soot just adds to the existing potential nuclei. An engine burning pure hydrogen would produce no soot, but still produce a contrail.

Side note, 93% of aviation is in the northern hemisphere, but most of the landlocked ice is in the southern hemisphere, so even if there was some local reflective radiative forcing issue from soot in aircraft exhaust, it would (in theory) not effect sea levels much.

When I say mirroring affect I mean that the ice crystal itself may become for reflective due to the soot nuclei.

What is the existing potential nuclei? The nuclei to my knowledge is the center of the ice crystal that forms the contrail.
I am not asking about hydrogen I am asking about jet fuel exhaust emissions and the soot that they produce, surely jet fuel must produce soot that acts as a nuclei for the ice to form around which helps to create a persistent contrail when the conditions are right.
For instance now and again we see wing tip contrails that are formed by ice crystals, but I have never seen a persistent wing tip contrail, from my obdervation they are always short lived.

Sea levels?

A little more information on soot nuclei.

The Salt Lake City region experienced an 8% increase in cirrus cloud cover over a 15-year period2 which covariates with an increase in regional commercial air traffic. If soot particles act as freezing nuclei to cause contrail formation3 heterogeneously, they would be linked to a secondary effect to cloud modification that very likely is climatologically important.

Link

reply to post by Hally Burton

While soot in the exhaust may help, there are more than enough ambient aerosols to act as condensation nuclei.

Wingtip contrails form as a result of the low pressure in the wingtip vortices forcing supersaturation which leads to condensation of water vapor. It is a different process entirely and can occur at temperatures much higher than those which are necessary for the formation of contrails (persistent or otherwise). Once the energy of the vortex has dissipated, the pressure at its core rises and the condensed water returns to its vapor state.

The primary factor which determines contrail persistence is relative humidity. The number of ice crystals (or nuclei) is not really pertinent.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Hally Burton

 

While soot in the exhaust may help, there are more than enough ambient aerosols to act as condensation nuclei.

Wingtip contrails form as a result of the low pressure in the wingtip vortices forcing supersaturation which leads to condensation of water vapor. It is a different process entirely and can occur at temperatures much higher than those which are necessary for the formation of contrails (persistent or otherwise). Once the energy of the vortex has dissipated, the pressure at its core rises and the condensed water returns to its vapor state.

The primary factor which determines contrail persistence is relative humidity. The number of ice crystals (or nuclei) is not really pertinent.

edit on 5/5/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)

So does the water vapour of a wingtip contrail still form an ice crystal?

Just to add: You say.

The primary factor which determines contrail persistence is relative humidity. The number of ice crystals (or nuclei) is not really pertinent

I understand that the primary factor in the creation of contrails persistence is relative humidity, but what I don't quite understand is that the number of ice crystals (or nuclei) is not really pertinent.
Are you saying that without the ice crystals a persistent contrail would still form with the right relative humidity levels?