Osama Assassination: Whatever Happened To "Innocent Until Proven Guilty?"

Innocent until proven guilty

went out the door with

Obama's extremely low polling numbers.

Funny thing is that the numbers are staying about the same. Why?

Because Obama wasn't being disapproved of because of OBL not being captured. It was because he is running the country into the ground-on purpose.

Hence, the public preception of him and what he is doing as President hasn't and won't change just because he happened to be the man at the Oval office when the info came in.

Time will tell but I bet you I'm right. (unfortunately)

Originally posted by Zamini
reply to post by AboveTheTrees

 

Put OBL on a trial that could last for years and OBL would have a World-wide speaker live TV connection to call the yijad in the name of Allah and so--- NO WAY.

That is pure speculation. The fact is that you don't know what would have happened. Heck, the normal Muslims could have seen him and thought: "What a nutcase!" You don't know, you pretend to know. Stop pretending to know and stop making decisions based on your ignorance.

I think it's a lot better for the World this way,

Good, your opinion. You are entitled to this. However, what you are not entitled to is:

even us Europeans and Europan Parliament agree on that.

First of all. What the hell is a European? Last I checked, Europe was a continent with 50(FIFTY!) different countries that ALL have their own culture, sometimes partially shared culture, their own languages, their own government, their own borders, their own people and before the fascist monetary policy of the EU came into play; their own currency.

I want people who read this to recognize this bit of disinformation. It is taught in schools to think of Europe as one country under the European Union. This is a complete farce. There is no "European" and the parliament this person speaks of, is kept at distance from the people in European countries - while they make the big decisions individual countries have to uphold - whether THEIR people want it or not.

And for those interested in why the European Union is bad for the people of Europe;

Look up the European Arrest Warrant.
Look up how farmers are told which crops to grow, effectively killing competition.

European Union is an economic and political union of 27 states, located in a continent called Europe. There are more states and nations in the continent that are not part of EU.

Citizens in the 27 States (members) vote for their candidates in European Parliament in European Elections. These candidates go to Brussels and merge in what we could call "European Political Parties" to deffend whatever ideas they've been elected to.

It's true that maybe not all Europeans feel EU yet as a true operative structure above them, but the fact is that it is. We could dismantle it by voting too. Or by other means such as rivers of blood, beheadings, violent overthrows of kings, presidents and governments, we have frequently used before.

I have to ask you directly: how should I refer to a person living in European Continent if I cant use "European"?


Now.

You call me ignorant and speculative for assuming what OBL would have done on trial. Maybe I should apply the same tag on you when specultaing what common muslims would have thought as a whole. I can assume the speculative, but why ignorant? Is it a matter of knowledge?

Have you realized I -unlike you- was not even talking about common muslim reaction?

I was just pointing what one man like OBL (widely known for his radical statements) could have said when given so much World-Wide focus attention.

reply to post by AboveTheTrees

European Union is an economic and political union of 27 states, located in a continent called Europe. There are more states and nations in the continent that are not part of EU.

You say: "Even us Europeans".

Wake up, there is no collective European. This is the LIE. Now you can be honest and either claim this is not a lie or you could think and realize that you have been sold a lie. There is no shame in it, they are really going overboard with pro-EU propaganda in high schools here.

Citizens in the 27 States (members) vote for their candidates in European Parliament in European Elections. These candidates go to Brussels and merge in what we could call "European Political Parties" to deffend whatever ideas they've been elected to.

This is the standard reply. You would be amazed how many times(and how many people) say this and think they just made an argument or they just informed someone.

It's true that maybe not all Europeans feel EU yet as a true operative structure above them, but the fact is that it is. We could dismantle it by voting too. Or by other means such as rivers of blood, beheadings, violent overthrows of kings, presidents and governments, we have frequently used before.

If you were true to your cause and would research this you will find that more heads have rolled to keep the EU alive. Heck, entire nations have been tricked into a referendum about a European Constitution(but you already knew this didn't you), while others weren't even offered the option, all the while the EU is trying to force the referendum down the throats of countries who refused. (But not for long, as one could anticipate, since the children being indoctrinated in schools now will be the voters tomorrow...and what will they remember? Only good words spoken about the EU - counter-arguments are rarely presented and if they are they are shoved into the corner of the extremist)

Heck, the plane of a member of the EU parliament crashed...this member was a CRITIC. One plus one adds up to...?

I have to ask you directly: how should I refer to a person living in European Continent if I cant use "European"?

That is WHY you use "Dutch" "German" "Danish" "Spanish" "Swiss" "Italian" etc.

Or do you live in the US and assume that Europe is a country?

Maybe I should apply the same tag on you when specultaing what common muslims would have thought as a whole.

Maybe you should, and once you do that you can see how it reflects on your own argument. I wish it wasn't necessary to make a bloody fool out of myself but for your understanding...well there ya go.

I can assume the speculative, but why ignorant? Is it a matter of knowledge?

Truth of the matter is, this Osama thing needs to die out as soon as possible. Speculating only keeps it alive longer which is the actual plan. Conspiracy site :p

I was just pointing what one man like OBL (widely known for his radical statements) could have said when given so much World-Wide focus attention.

There are ways around this, recordings for example. Only release the absolute necessary parts now and release the bunch after the verdict.

Originally posted by mugger
Osama started a war with the U.S. by killing 3,000 at the WTC.He is not a U.S. citizen so our Constitution does not apply to him.
I personally am glad he is dead and better than letting Eric Holder dither with him.

So you had your own trial? That is not how we do things, that is how bad people do things. We have lowered ourselves below the terrorists by not having a trial.

reply to post by BattleFieldPredator


Well it went out of the window when you can not prosecute and bring to justice what is already death.

As I said in other posts about OBL and this mission .. this whole thing seems a bit stinky..
You make a good point as to bringing out this view .. I want to know how this was so conveintly allowed to happen in another country .. um so the Pakistani Governmment dont care who flys over their country???? and we our Millitary just swoops on in to kill a person ?????? with no retaliation at all ..no mention of illegalness .. please correct me if im wrong omg this just gets wierder and wierder .. now if this happened over any other country like what do you think they would do .. holy crap there would be no end to what somme countrys would have done

I personally think that they killed him because they didn't want to risk the embarrassement of a trial they might lose. There's probabyl some kind of proof against him for the 9/11 attacks, but I think the government didn't want to risk the fact that there is a possibility that they might lose the trial. He's already outsmarted our government once when we basically had him and he got away, so who's to say that he wouldn't just do it again?

What do you not understand about the difference between enemy combatant and civilian justice?

You do realize that your constitution and laws are NOT actually applicabel around the World don't you?

That an act of war is something completely outside the "jurisdiction" of a civilian court? That common law does not, nor was ever intended to be used for such events?

I am pretty sure he confessed about the 9/11 attacks in his videos..

proven guilty..

The FBI stated publicly that they had absolutely no evidence that OBL was connected to 9/11.

So why are all the brain washed ,flag waving sheeples saying he got what he deserved ?

Murder is murder , regardless of motive and OBL was murdered.

reply to post by BattleFieldPredator


great idea for a thread...

It is the ugly questions that make america great....

As an old cousin of mine (CH) who served in pattons third army used to say... "The truth is an ugly woman, mean spirited, and vengeful but turn the lights down low..."

Well you deserve more then a star and flag for asking a great question...


The best answer I can give is this.... The spirit of what this great nation stands for is being violated by the application of the rules...

BEFORE i get flamed for this make no mistake I would have done the same thing...

additional questions...

Is this war on Terror a declared war via the congress

Was Osama ever declared an enemy combatant

if either of the above is yes then the rules are different....


good question

I think the bigger question is what about all the dead Iraqi and Afghani civilians. The worlds moral compass needs some serious attention. Big kerfuffle about one dead self proclaimed terrorist but little mention about the thousands of innocent dead during the current wars on terror - rarely see it mentioned in any real way.

reply to post by EL1A5


those videos and audio tapes have been proven to be fakes. He died 9 years ago. Al Qaeda videos have also been proven to be manufacured by the CIA. There is no Al Qaeda.

Originally posted by earthdude
reply to post by EL1A5

 

those videos and audio tapes have been proven to be fakes. He died 9 years ago. Al Qaeda videos have also been proven to be manufacured by the CIA. There is no Al Qaeda.

Fascinating. Since I find evidence of them working in cells all over the World, and the people working in those cells clearly act and believe they are.

You're telling me that Chenchnya, Indonesia, Ubekistan, The Chinese Uigyars, with Al-Qaeda affliated groups don't exist....when they do exist, and are operating? Or that the CIA has Chinese Muslims Uigyars that they managed to drop into this fairly insulated group totally unawares? You're saying that Al-Qaeda of the Mahgreb doesn't exist, and the bombings they've perpetruated in places like Mauritania are actually by a US INTERNAL agency?

Just checking.

reply to post by BattleFieldPredator


I can think of quite a few very good reasons for assassinating him but before I go into it I want to point out something that I think has been over looked on the ATS threads so far that your thread has highlighted. America has just carried out state sanctioned assassination using intelligence operatives and military personnel in a foreign sovereign territory, this is a massive breach of international law. Under the Geneva Convention he can’t even be considered as a enemy combatant killed in combat, that incidentally is where allot of the problems Bush had originated from. That said however I do believe that it was right to assassinate him.

Think about the troubles of getting KSM to trial, could you imagine just now difficult that would have been with OBL, where would he be held, what evidence could be used and still protect confidential intelligence capabilities, where would he be tried, who would try him and so on. Then think of the up roar in America when the discovered that he was not going to be tried for 9/11 but for the 1998 bombings, not the 9/11 attacks as you have said in your OP. The problems with putting him up on trial would be immense when one looks at the case of KSM. Taking out the legal aspect of this, what about security in guarding him security during trials and so on it was just much easier to get it over and done with quickly.

Also the reason he was shot right away (going with the official story) was because OBL had consistently claimed in the past he would not be taken alive and would Martyr himself. With this in mind it is a fair assumption for the members of SEAL Team Six to have assumed he was wearing a suicide vest and that is why they shot him.


The CIA have always said that he would never be taken alive, he was just too dangerous to be kept alive. Although I would usually agree with you that assassination is wrong and the proper procedure of justice should be brought down on criminal’s like OBL, there are some exceptions and he was one of those exceptions.

PS:

I am going to give u a S&F for asking this important question, I don’t seem to be giving much of them out on the OBL threads, most of them are totally rubbish. This could be one of the good ones if people stop having petty arguments over the EU.

reply to post by kevinunknown


I do not remember if we have agreed to disagree in the past but remind me next time we do to bring an axe and a baseball bat.... That was what I was trying to say much smoother and better put....

It deserves a flag on its own...

I also was not thinking of the Geneva convention... good catch on that...


too bad these threads are not getting the same intelligent responses all the way around..... ats needs a few more posters like you

reply to post by ripcontrol


Thank you, I regard terrorism and in particularly the history of Al’Qa’ida to be my specialist subject on ATS. I find it very frustrating that the death of OBL has lead to a bunch of rubbish threads with inaccuracies wild conspiracies and rife with ignorance on the subject yet so full of posters it’s impossible to get a word in edge ways to try and talk some sense, not saying I am right about everything but it would be nice to get a word in. So your kind words really do mean allot and I thank you for that.

I've seen a few statements in threads similar inferring that because bin Laden is not american, there is no law or precedent that would protect him from being punished without due process.

I wish to point out that the US is a member of the UN. Here are a few things we agreed on shortly after entering this collective.

On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."

PREAMBLE

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Inalienable
in·alien·able - adj
(ˌ)i-ˈnāl-yə-nə-bəl, -ˈnā-lē-ə-nə-
: incapable of being alienated, surrendered, or transferred

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 10.

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Universal Declaration of Human Rights


As a member, it is our obligation to adhere to such agreements we partake in.

I don't know whether or not ST6 had the opportunity to take him alive. I was not there

But if they did have the chance to do so, without endangering themselves, the matter of whether or not his right to trial by jury is protected is not a matter of debate.

For further reference here is "History of Trial by Jury" by William Forsyth

Edit: Double post

Edit: Double post