Has anyone seen the moon.

reply to post by WhatAreSpinkters

You guys obviously find this stuff interesting ... as do i .. .hopefully i can learn some stuff from you around these threads when my heads a bit clearer ... i absolutely love this stuff .. and love trying to wrap my head around some of it

I love physics, and something tells me stereologist does too. For all intents and purposes, I'm majoring in physics at university (though, my focus is Quantum Mechanics...but my interests extend to the outermost reaches of the cosmos and back again).
Astrophysics is a stimulating topic.

Speaking of which .. is it a co-incidence that we are supposed to pass through this plane on winter soltice next year ?
I dont mean the fact that its 2012 .. but the fact that its winter soltice ? ... astranomically .. im guessing thats just a coincidence ? an astranomical one

Actually, the idea that the Earth passes through the galactic plane is a false one. There are two definitions of this "passing" and both are false...

1) The "bobbing" of the entire solar system up and down through the plane of the galaxy is one which lasts millions of years, and no single date pinpoints our crossing of that plane.

2) The alignment of the Earth, the Sun, and the Galactic Center is also not as well-defined as people try to make it seem. The three are relatively aligned on December 21, 2012, at 11:11 UTC, exactly on the winter solstice, but (and here's the kicker) they have been aligned already for the past 31 years. It takes 38 years for the Galactic Center to pass behind the angular diameter of the Sun (about 0.5 degrees) in the sky, and this is already in progress. Nothing special occurs on December 21, 2012. The reason it "coincidentally" falls on the winter solstice is because superstitious people (who claim to be backed by the Mayans...a whole other group of superstitious people) have picked the winter solstice to hype, rather than revealing the fact that there is really nothing special about the date. It's all in their heads.

There's isn't even any sort of planetary alignment on December 21, 2012.

Oh...but there is that graffiti in the Egyptian pyramids that mentions 2012. Now there's a highly reputable source

OK, so i run into the moon yesterday right? And i say hey whats new? And the moon says..".man? you got $10 bucks I can BORROW?"

Im like what? He owes me $25 bucks already..the nerve of this guy.....

Yea, Ole Moon hasn't been the same....its all about him apparently...

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by WhatAreSpinkters

 

You guys obviously find this stuff interesting ... as do i .. .hopefully i can learn some stuff from you around these threads when my heads a bit clearer ... i absolutely love this stuff .. and love trying to wrap my head around some of it

I love physics, and something tells me stereologist does too. For all intents and purposes, I'm majoring in physics at university (though, my focus is Quantum Mechanics...but my interests extend to the outermost reaches of the cosmos and back again).
Astrophysics is a stimulating topic.

Speaking of which .. is it a co-incidence that we are supposed to pass through this plane on winter soltice next year ?
I dont mean the fact that its 2012 .. but the fact that its winter soltice ? ... astranomically .. im guessing thats just a coincidence ? an astranomical one

Actually, the idea that the Earth passes through the galactic plane is a false one. There are two definitions of this "passing" and both are false...
1) The "bobbing" of the entire solar system up and down through the plane of the galaxy is one which lasts millions of years, and no single date pinpoints our crossing of that plane.
2) The alignment of the Earth, the Sun, and the Galactic Center is also not as well-defined as people try to make it seem. The three are relatively aligned on December 21, 2012, at 11:11 UTC, exactly on the winter solstice, but (and here's the kicker) they have been aligned already for the past 31 years. It takes 38 years for the Galactic Center to pass behind the angular diameter of the Sun (about 0.5 degrees) in the sky, and this is already in progress. Nothing special occurs on December 21, 2012. The reason it "coincidentally" falls on the winter solstice is because superstitious people (who claim to be backed by the Mayans...a whole other group of superstitious people) have picked the winter solstice to hype, rather than revealing the fact that there is really nothing special about the date. It's all in their heads.
There's isn't even any sort of planetary alignment on December 21, 2012.
Oh...but there is that graffiti in the Egyptian pyramids that mentions 2012. Now there's a highly reputable source

edit on 30-4-2011 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)

Spot on with everything nice work. But there is a planetary alignment....but its just an optical illusion from our position here on earth. But yeah when you see the orbits, they arent even close to aligned...people have to remember...mayans saw the alignment from here and thats what they saw, the illusion of alignment and it happens every year if im not mistaken. They werent predicting anything with their calendars they were just meticulous time keepers.

Originally posted by CLPrime

I love physics, and something tells me stereologist does too. For all intents and purposes, I'm majoring in physics at university (though, my focus is Quantum Mechanics...but my interests extend to the outermost reaches of the cosmos and back again).
Astrophysics is a stimulating topic.

Excellent ... Its great to have minds like these here .. Welcome to ATS

I also have a love, or appreciation and awe for these and other sciences in general .. though my basic knowledge is limited by my understanding of what i learn from documentaries, and the internet, which i can appreciate may be a tad frustrating to some people people, when trying to talk technical sense .. Thanks for your time & patience

I am also mystified by quantum physics ... I don't pretend for a second to understand most of the concepts .. and many concepts, such as string theory, are apparently eternally impossible to directly prove the existence of anyway ... (ie, see them), but are fascinating all the same ..

Originally posted by CLPrime

The "bobbing" of the entire solar system up and down through the plane of the galaxy is one which lasts millions of years, and no single date pinpoints our crossing of that plane.

Exactly ...
Though my understanding from these ever more increasingly dubious articles i read was ... It takes millions or hundreds of thousands of years to complete a cycle .... but, they can calculate an very approximate centre of this plane (not too hard for those in the know i guess .. look at where everything else is sitting ... see the average thickness of this plane) ...
Although the actual 'bob' may take millions of years (think i even read some source say 23,000) ... they can pretty much tell where the approximate centre of this bob is .. and where the majority of matter lies on the plane, in relation to the extent of our 'bob' ... The claims i read (i know i need to try find my links again .. i did a quick google search, and it just returned pages of headaches and migraines .. think i need a coffee ...) were something to the effect of, they calculate an approximate area of this 'dead centre' to take several years for the earth to pass through .. (there was disagreement as to the actual width of this area that could potentially effect us, and therefore how long it would take to pass through .. ranging from months .. to years ... ) but generally, the period we pass through that centre was in 'general' agreement

But if their calculations of the approximate centre are at least, approximate enough, that we do 'roughly' pass through a part of the plane with significant gravitational variability, 'roughly' next year ...
Then ... so far the earth is still holding it together .. so when we are approx another year through the other side ... the earth (and solar system) should be in a similar state as it is right now ... (gravitationally, electromagnetically, and so on) ..
But .. in my 'speculative theory' if you will ... that leaves us anywhere from now, to up to a year and a half to still travel into a potentially denser 'gravitational' region (some people are also giving weight to some sort of electric universe .. i wont go there just now) ..

I know yous agree gravity can not be directed .. for a sphere like a star or planet ... yeah .. it would be pretty much even from all angles ..

but stick with me .. lets go on to say for example, it is the overall gravity of the galaxies mass that keeps all the stars in place, and should eventually settle us in place from our 'bob' .. if you could visualse the gravitational pull of our sun for a moment .. would likely look like a visible sphere .. .. as the galaxy is a disc, and not a sphere, as its gravitational pull is equal in all drections from its actual matter content .. the magnetic pull (as observed from a vantage point outside the galaxy), would not be spherical , but more elongated like the shape of the galaxy ...

and if it is indeed down to the total gravity of the galaxies mass .. then, as the galaxies matter is obviously not even equally distributed within the actual plane (spirals .. and irregular uneven spacing of individual stars) that the resulting gravity (an overall mesh of all the contributors, if you will) would also be quite irregular ... and certainly not even from all angles on a galactic scale .... and even in this 'galactic mass gravity' model .. i imagine there would be a greater gravitational force, or / and some other force, in the dead centre of that plane ...

im not saying gravity can be directed as such or even has to be ... but it doesnt have to be equal from all angles .. im sure this can even apply to bodies such as the earth on a smaller scale where its slightly greater at the equator (perhaps aided by centrifugal force in this example, but a measurable variation all the same) ... or if our core was not pure spherical (which i beleive to be the case also) ...

the point im making is .. i think if gravity can be affected by such things to a measurable degree (and even more so .. time .. which always sends my brain into overload when i try to grasp the time / space / universe relationship) ... then we cant truly say how the dynamics of a supermassive black holes gravity works .. but i wouldnt be 100% certain it reaches out equally from the black hole in all directions .. and from my limited perspective .. as crazy as black holes are .. its not a huge leap for me to imagine their gravity may be a bit more focused, at their equators (if such a scenario were true, it could mean the gravitational force at that section, could be up to .. say, at a guess, 100 times greater or so ? as all of the bodies gravity is condensed further to that region ?) .. and if not wholly responsible for the layout of our spiral galaxy, very well could be a huge contributor ... as its in the dead centre of the spinning spirals .. and likely rotating in the same direction .. its obviously spinning with the galaxy due to its relationship ... it would suggest to my naive mind that either:

A - the supermassive blackhole has a huge influence on the galaxys matter .. or
B - the galaxy, and this dark matter or whatever, have a huge influence of the black hole, forcing it to spin with the flow of the galaxy ...
due to the apparent nature of the supermassive black hole .. i will go for option A .. we only just discovered them 5 minutes ago ish ..

I also appreciate you dont believe a supermassive black hole can warp its own gravitational field by the speed of its extreme rotation and / or other forces (since i only invented the concept last night in bed ) .. and bearing in mind, i dont fully understand what gravity is, and suspect even the greatest minds dont .. so from my limited perspective .. its possible gravity can emanate from an object with a nature similar to a wave for example (emitted in all directions, like light from a star) .. but the extreme spin and forces at work other than gravity (since gravity is apparently the by far the weakest force compared to the other 3, which may or may not exist in their same form within a black holes environment anyway) can actually warp the gravity (which is eminating like a wave remember, in my wee reality .. i know its likely not .. but just to simplify things for the sake of this theory ... i only thought of this as i was about to go to sleep, so may need refined ) .. i propose that supermassive black holes, and perhaps standard black holes, may have the ability to warp its own gravitational field / pull, due to the extreme physics, or lack of, within .... and coupled with our limited understanding .. , I dont think its overly radical to contemplate such a thing .... just a couple of decades ago, a scientist could be ridiculed for giving weight to the theory that black holes actually existed ..

Although i am no scientist, and have no equations .. can you be 100% sure im incorrect ? .. so sure youd have no problem betting your life on it .. or only sure enough where youd bet a grand or so

I don't know where you're at, with regards to earth changing events on the increase .. but i do beleive something very noticeable is taking place on Earth, possibly the sun, and rest of solar system .. i have no desire to debate this now, or try to convince anyone .. but if i could ask you to appreciate, this is where i am just now, just as i appreciate anyone who is of the opinion the earth just going about business as usual ... i ask you appreciate, i do beleive the earths starting to go a bit mad .. that, although i make no absolute assertions as to why, I have certainly considered many theories .. and this one certainly sounds the most plausible to me so far, (at least it did, when i thought it was accepted as fact in main stream science that we were going to pass thourhg it next year) as it explaines why the sun (and perhaps rest of solar system) also appear to be going through some sort of before un-noticed cycle, at the same time as us ... the rest of the theories dont really explain that for me .. and i cant really embrace the nibiru theory .. ill reconsider that when we see a planet whooshing past our telescope lenses ...

Also .. the other reason i consider this theory so much ... is ... the physics (and my wild, perhaps unrealistic theories) are fascinating ... Even more fascinating, now that few scientists suggest we may not even be from Milky Way .. hence the bob up and down ..


Whether my proposal (not a belief as such), or dark matter, or gravity of the overall galaxy ... or whether some other unkown force we are still to uncover (not to far out there to say such an unkown force likely exists, and thats as far as we know of it so far .. ie, an alternative to this proposed dark matter) .. the point is .. something is holding the galaxies stars on the in place on this plane ... something is holding all these stars into the spiral formation ... science hasnt yet been able to explain exactly what it is thats holding the galaxies in place, in their form ... they are undecided amongst themselves ... thats fine .. im no einstein . im not judging, and am glad they are split and considering alternatives .. but since dark matter purely exists in calculations (as black holes once did to be fair), and have no real tangible existence in our reality yet, and due to their nature apparently can never be tangible anyway ... and since they have barely scratched the surface of supermassive black holes .. i wont embrace any theory just yet as to what the responsible force is thats holding it all together .. and it probably doesnt matter so much whether that force is the galaxies overall gravity as a whole, or my far fetched (in both senses) gravity from the supermassive black hole ... as long as i can see there is some force, known or unkown, holding the majority of the galaxies matter on this relatively thin disc / plane .. it suggests to me, the force is greater at that section ...

With the earths delicate balance, and weakened current magnetic field / poles ... Im not so certain we can be sure that any force there will not interact with our magnetic poles / fields / tectonic plates / weather or so on ... and that this is not what is already happening, gaining momentum, as we progress further towards and interact with this apparently not real denser gravitational section (which some suggest may also apparently have more 'debris' lying around .. which, if theres plenty of debris around .. would make sense it gathers in that cetral zone ... some speculate it is this debris we pass through that causes mass extinctions) ... but i truly respect anyones opinion that everythings fine and none of these things are happening ...

due to the inconsistincies i now read, in the actual cycle . . dates .. etc ... that doesnt serve to ease my mind that its all non sense .. but just makes me more inclined to sit on the fence for now, and try learn more ... Although it doesnt surprise me tehre are inconsistincies as to when we are due to pass through (ie .. now, or millions of years from now) ... it cant be that hard for science to have figured out ... there must be a few reputable sites that have this info and dont contradict each other ... but all i can find just now in my search is a huge list of 2012 related sites


Sorry my posts are like mini novels .. i cant help myself ..
If i came to a post like this ... and saw a reply was expected .. id just close the page and pretend my internet went down ..

Originally posted by karen61057
reply to post by WhatAreSpinkters

 

I gave you a star just for the fluffy kittens line!

Bless

reply to post by Rekrul

you know... the moon does have phases. look up a chart. there is also things called "shadows" the earth creates on it.

The only time the Earth's shadow falls on the Moon we call it a lunar eclipse. Phases are due to what we see of the Moon being lit up by the Sun. Because the position of the Moon relative to us changes we see varying parts of the Moon lit up. You can create the same effect by holding a ball at arm's length and turning around in the sunlight.

reply to post by Givenmay


The Moon like the Sun and all of the other heavenly objects rises in the East and Sets in the West. All of this is due to the Earth rotating. There is no switch with the change of the seasons.

reply to post by topherman420


The Mayans also did not know about galaxies. That's a modern idea. If I recall correctly the Mayans saw the Milky Way as a road in the sky.

reply to post by WhatAreSpinkters


What is interesting here is that you spent quite a bit of writing attempting to state that a nebulous zone can be identified by doing a lot of averaging or some other mathematical work. So somehow this vague center can be identified. Think about it this way. Average all of the income for you and your friends to come up with an average income. Does anyone actually earn this average income?

Although you might find an average for some measurement does it mean that this is where the max is? What the calculation for the center produces is a position and not necessarily something else assumed to be associated with the center.

You also consider that gravity is different at different places around the galaxy because of the shape of the galaxy. That's true. But the force is still due to the sum of the forces acting on something such as our solar system.

Take a look at the shape of the Earth's oceans. Did you know that the water is piled onto the sides of the continents? The gravitational pull of the continents draws the water towards the continents so that a ship traveling towards the continents actually climbs up a hill?
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoid]Geoid
A ship does not experience a climb or see the water flowing down this hill. What the ship experiences is a surface of the same gravitational potential. That's a fancy way of saying that the pull of gravity is at right angles to the ocean's surface. The ship moves perpendicular to by moving along the surface of the water.

something is holding the galaxies stars on the eliptic ... something is holding all these stars into the spiral formation

The shape of the galaxies is due to the forces between the parts of the galaxies. That is well understood by science. What appears to be a problem is that the matter that can be seen is not enough to account for the motions of the parts we can see. Thus there must be some unseen matter. That is why it is called dark matter. It is not lit up and visible like the stars.

and weakened current magnetic field / poles

The magnetic field of the Earth is due to convection cells in the outer core which is liquid. The magnetic field we experience at the surface is only a tiny part of the actual field most of which is inside of the Earth.

Originally posted by stereologist
What is interesting here is that you spent quite a bit of writing attempting to state that a nebulous zone can be identified by doing a lot of averaging or some other mathematical work. So somehow this vague center can be identified. Think about it this way. Average all of the income for you and your friends to come up with an average income. Does anyone actually earn this average income?

Not quite sure why its interesting i spent so much time ... and i can appreciate why averaging like this, and making assumptions to someone as apparently educated as yourself, may seem a waste of time .. or crazy ..
But it is teh way my mind works ... i never had a great education .. but i do have a huge fascination of these things and my mind loves to try to visualise how they work ... that is enough for me at my 'hobby' level .. and i do spend much time pondering many things that fascinate me, no matter how far fetched, on a wide array of far out topics ..

Are you suggesting i shouldnt bother ? .. cos to be honest .. ive enjoyed my scientific adventure up until now ...
Or are you saying i should go get an eductaion .. and get the facts laid out to me as you know them ?
I cant be bothered .. i prefer doing what im doing and love my life as it is ...

You also consider that gravity is different at different places around the galaxy because of the shape of the galaxy. That's true. But the force is still due to the sum of the forces acting on something such as our solar system.

Yes .. i understand this .. i was using this as an example to show how gravity can be inconsistent .. using this to further hypothesise that perhaps maybe a super massive black holes gravity could be far more inconsistent to the point of being far more dominant at its equator .. basically going back to our earlier point of whether a black hole can produce a 'directed gravitational force' ... im not convinced it cannot .. and is still what im swaying towards ... no pun intended ..

Take a look at the shape of the Earth's oceans. Did you know that the water is piled onto the sides of the continents? The gravitational pull of the continents draws the water towards the continents so that a ship traveling towards the continents actually climbs up a hill?

my understanding was the earth oceans bulged at both sides of the planet (as well as the planet itself apparently).. one always facing towards the moon, and one directly on the opposite side ... both of which, move with the moon due to its gravitational interaction, and are responsible for our tides ... perhaps were talking about 2 different effects here though ... though i may be missing the 'bigger picture' .. you keep telling me here and past replies things i already know .. i know im far from educated on these things, and i do appreciate you are probably trying to help me ... .. but hope in time .. you are able to give me some more credit for intelligence ... no offence ..

The shape of the galaxies is due to the forces between the parts of the galaxies. That is well understood by science. What appears to be a problem is that the matter that can be seen is not enough to account for the motions of the parts we can see. Thus there must be some unseen matter. That is why it is called dark matter. It is not lit up and visible like the stars.

Yes .. im aware of this also .. not sure where i lead you to beleive i dont understand this ..

The magnetic field of the Earth is due to convection cells in the outer core which is liquid. The magnetic field we experience at the surface is only a tiny part of the actual field most of which is inside of the Earth.

I do have a basic grasp of this ... but as a magnetic field is the result of some interaction at the earth core, with the surrounding liquid as you put it .. like a dynamo for my simple mind ... but as the magnetic field is the result of this reaction ... its fair to say, that another outside magnetic, or gravitational force, could interact with, either, the magnetic field, or the iron of the core and liquid which generate the said field ...

I also read recently .. that although the field, may be a result of the dynamics of the core ... the dynamics of the core also relies now, on the magnetic field .. alsmost like a perpetual motion .. if you will ... if you could somehow remove the magnetic field right now ... teh dynamics of the core .. the liquid .. the mantle .. etc .. would all change ..

cause and effect ...

im unsure if you were describing the earths magnetic field to me .. to show me that it could not be affected by going through this plane ... or just for information ... but ... as yet .. im still sitting on that fence

I hope i didnt offend you at all .... and if i picked you up wrong in your first response to me .. and last response .. and are in fact not intentionally being derogatory towards me, then i apologise for my misconstruance

Thanks for taking the time to read my mini novels though .. especially since you know your probably going to roll your eyes at what you end up reading anyway .. hat off to you

I really can't be bothered to read all the replies so this may well of been pointed in an earlier post but C'MON think about it...

Full moon 18th April the moon is on a 28 day cycle, therefore 2 weeks later on the 1st of May it is in what phase? wait for it, waiiiiiiiiiit YESSSSSSSSSSSS the dark of the moon

See here for current phase of the moon

Moon Phase

See here for an explanation of the Moons phases if you don't understand them

Explanation

Don't worry it will be back

Dinoman .. maybe you should change the thread title now to, the gravitational dynamics of a supermassive black hole

Stereologist beat me in replying to most of your post (and, though I would have a couple things to add, I don't have a lot of time at the moment), but I will respond to this:

Originally posted by WhatAreSpinkters

I don't know where you're at, with regards to earth changing events on the increase .. but i do beleive something very noticeable is taking place on Earth, possibly the sun, and rest of solar system .. i have no desire to debate this now, or try to convince anyone .. but if i could ask you to appreciate, this is where i am just now, just as i appreciate anyone who is of the opinion the earth just going about business as usual

If it helps any, I do have some semblance of an inkling that "earth changing" events are certainly on the increase. But, I also believe that this is, in fact, business as usual. I believe that the Earth has seen numerous "earth changes" and will continue to for as long as it exists. Extinction-level events are just as normal for the Earth as uneventful days, even if they do occur a lot less frequently (which, I might add, is a good thing), and I would never rule out the possibility that what we are seeing now may be indicative of some impending cataclysm. I do note, however, that such a cataclysm could come at any time - even at a time when us humans aren't seeing signs (though, when aren't we?).
So, I do agree that recent events (even just those of 2011, so far) may indicate a coming catastrophe, but, then, this may also be as bad as it gets...or, we may really be making much ado about nothing. Regardless, it's all "business as usual."

reply to post by CLPrime


Thanks for reading CLPrime ... and going easy on me .. appreciated ..


So were all in agreement then .. the moon is still there

I'm in Arizona, and I've noticed this year that the moon seems extremely large and bright, compared to normal.

I have heard rumors and rumblings that some people have noticed that the big dipper seems to be out of alignment. Since I live in a big city, I don't get to do much star watching these days, I can't confirm this. I haven't seen the big dipper in a while, nor have I looked for it!

But here is another piece of information some of you may not know: The sun rose 2 days earlier than expected this year in Greenland. (Remember, they are in the Arctic circle, so they have long months of winter with no sun.)

One theory of why it happened is that the glaciers have melted due to global warming, and so the residents could see the sun earlier than usual. (All I can say about that is...HA! Give me a break.)

Here are some links.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

www.livescience.com...

So, if some people are noticing the big dipper is out of place, and if the sun rose 2 days earlier than expected in Greenland and if others are noticing the moon looks different... then perhaps the alignment of the stars, moon, sun, etc.... is changing because our Earth is shifting on its axis.

I heard that both the Indonesian and the Japanese earthquake made our days shorter or longer by a few seconds, so if that is true, wouldn't it make sense that perhaps our axis is shifting as well?

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by topherman420

 

The Mayans also did not know about galaxies. That's a modern idea. If I recall correctly the Mayans saw the Milky Way as a road in the sky.

I do realize that they did not specifically know about galaxies, what I was saying was they noticed the pattern in the stars as an alignment, and modern interpretation assumes they meant it literally.

reply to post by WhatAreSpinkters


My pleasure. Opinions are subjective, so I typically try to be understanding... considering that, where one person sees "earth changes", another person sees "business as usual", and it's very possible for both to be right. You may have noticed, I actually encompass both points of view. I may be somewhat unique in that respect. At least, on ATS. People here tend to militantly stand by one side or the other. This often often represents a narrow-minded worldview. Such a view is dangerous.

Now, I've found (or forced) some time, so I want to respond to the physics a little more...

First of all, some basics. Why do black holes spin? They spin because the stars that collapse to form them are spinning. Angular momentum is conserved as the rotating star collapses, which results in a rotating black hole. Why does matter form a disc around a black hole? This is a common illustration, but try standing and spinning with your arms out. Then, while spinning, bring your arms in to your sides (you don't really have to do that... I'm sure you know what happens). Naturally, you spin faster. The same happens when a star collapses. The conservation of angular momentum, as the mass of the star becomes compacted into an incredibly small volume, means the mass that forms the black hole spins a lot faster than it did as a large star. Consequently, black holes spin much faster than most things we encounter, either in space or here on Earth. The centripetal force involved, then, is huge. When the black hole takes in more matter, then, this concentrates that mass to the black hole's equator, forming the familiar accretion disc. Gravity pulls equally on external mass from all directions, but the centripetal force of the rotating black hole greatly overpowers the force of gravity near the event horizon, forcing that matter (which comes in from all directions) to the equator.
The Earth, as I know you know, bulges at the equator due to its rotation. If the Earth were to spin as fast as a black hole (and still be able to hold itself together), it would be a flat disc, as well (any Flat Earthers reading this just peed a little, I bet).

Now, as far as this extends to the plane of the galaxy... at our distance from the Galactic Center, it really doesn't. The fact that the galaxy is a disc is more related to the fact that it used to be one giant clump of rotating gas, as opposed to it having a black hole at its center. There is a ring of gas surrounding the center of the galaxy, which corresponds to an accretion disc, but that's it. Our solar system is not an accretion disc. We are an artifact of primordial rotation. The clump of gas that our galaxy formed from was rotating, so it flattened out. The center collapsed to form a supermassive black hole, and stars formed beyond that, within the already-disc-shaped gas-clump. This also means that the "plane" of the galaxy is much less well-defined than an accretion disc. Centripetal force isn't forcing us to form a disc... it's now pretty much just the gravity of all the other stars that keeps things disc-shaped. Even the residual rotation of the Milky Way likely isn't enough to hold its own disc shape. There's just nothing to disturb the system, so we hold form.
So, the "plane" of the galaxy isn't really a plane, it's an entire region defined by relatively high density. It doesn't take a single minute, or a single day, to cross, it takes millions of years. I think people have an over-simplified view of the Milky Way. It's a lot more messy than I think most people imagine it (especially given the fact that it's currently mid-collision with another galaxy). And, despite what you may have read or heard, no scientist has seriously calculated that we will be crossing any sort of galactic plane on December 21, 2012. If you read of any "scientist" who has done so, congratulations - you've just discovered yourself a quack. They pop up here and there.

The solar system is bobbing up and down through the denser portion of the galaxy because of the gravity of everything in that denser portion. At this distance, it has very little to do with the black hole at the center. Out here, it's our neighborhood of stars and other local gravitational sources that keeps our solar system in-line. And, the gravitational pull of our solar system helps keep all other objects in-line. It's a mutual attraction that holds things together out here.

And, finally, you suggested that the rotation of a black hole might warp its gravity in some way. This is actually a little inside-out. The rotating gravitational field of a black hole warps the space around it. This is called frame-dragging. This warping, even regardless of the rotation, causes light to bend around a black hole, allowing objects behind it to be visible (typically) as double images on either side (gravitational lensing). Rotation merely twists the effect a bit, like pushing your fist into a bed and twisting it, so it wraps the sheet around your hand. Gravity is not affected - gravity causes the effect.

Otherwise, I'm pleased to see someone with some creativity in the area of astrophysics. Science needs out-of-the-box people. You should write a book about all of this .

reply to post by WhatAreSpinkters

and i can appreciate why averaging like this, and making assumptions ... may seem a waste of time .. or crazy ..

Averaging has many interesting properties which is why it is so useful. It is easy to do. That's a useful property. It provides an easy to understand single number that represents a large set of numbers. That's useful. There are a number of proofs to show that averaging is connected to bell curves making that another useful property.

I certainly see that you are exploring what is possible, which is very good. All I am trying to point out is that there are limitations to the process and we want to be sure that the result we get is useful. Just because we can imagine some measurement or some position in space doesn't make them useful.

to show how gravity can be inconsistent

Gravity won't be inconsistent. Maybe you meant to say that if you placed a sphere around the galaxy and went to places on the sphere and measured the force of gravity you would see that it is not the same everywhere on that sphere. Correct. You wouldn't expect it to be since the galaxy is not a homogeneous ball.

my understanding was the earth oceans bulged at both sides of the planet (as well as the planet itself apparently).. one always facing towards the moon, and one directly on the opposite side ... both of which, move with the moon due to its gravitational interaction, and are responsible for our tides

There are these bulges, but the waters of the Earth are not evenly distributed because gravity varies across the Earth due to the continents and the interior of the Earth not being homogeneous.

The surface of the ocean is dependent on the sum of the gravitational forces acting on it. The Earth shapes the oceans as does the Moon and the Sun. The other celestial bodies are too far away to have a detectable effect.

Yes .. im aware of this also .. not sure where i lead you to beleive i dont understand this ..

No offense intended. I was just making sure that this issue was stated.

especially since you know your probably going to roll your eyes at what you end up reading anyway

Not all. I pick up interesting ideas here all of the time.

reply to post by nikiano

One theory of why it happened is that the glaciers have melted due to global warming, and so the residents could see the sun earlier than usual. (All I can say about that is...HA! Give me a break.)

Why do you find this hard to believe?

The motion of the Earth is carefully checked. It is checked down to tiny fractions of a second. This is done on a continual basis. When appropriate leap seconds are added to the calendar so that the motions of the Earth are back in agreement with atomic clocks.

So, if some people are noticing the big dipper is out of place, and if the sun rose 2 days earlier than expected in Greenland and if others are noticing the moon looks different... then perhaps the alignment of the stars, moon, sun, etc.... is changing because our Earth is shifting on its axis.

If something as glaring as a pole shift occurred, then every astronomer in the world would know immediately. Amateur astronomers world wide would know too.

The Greenland sunrise was not seen everywhere in the world because it was a local event due to local changes. The constellations are not out of place. Whole sky surveys are done on a continual basis. Any changes would be noticed in days.

Project Pan Starrs
This project uses a 1.4 gigapixel camera to scan the skies. If anything were changing in the skies such as constellation stars then it would be picked up quickly.

I heard that both the Indonesian and the Japanese earthquake made our days shorter or longer by a few seconds, so if that is true, wouldn't it make sense that perhaps our axis is shifting as well?

You are off by a factor of a million. The day is now 2 microseconds shorter. The small change causes the Earth to spin faster because of conservation of momentum just as a skater spins faster when they pull their arms in.

reply to post by CLPrime


Wow CLPrime ..

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond with that .. for actually reading what i had written, and not half skimming it .. but more so .. for taking the time to understand my idea i was trying to convey, with my limited appropriate terminology ...

A lot of what you say makes sense ... I very much did want you to address what i said about the massive black holes gravitational effect ... I can absolutely accept everything you say, even, that the black holes gravitational grip 'very possibly' has no influence on our part of the edge of the galaxy ...

But, to be honest, i absolutely cannot embrace dark matter yet ... as far as i know, it was a calculation that was added to general relativity or something, at which point, made our model of the galaxies and universe work ... but as yet, has no substance more than that within our reality .. other than 'filling in an annoying gap' and due to the convenient nature of dark matter, is unlikely we could ever detect it anyway .. ... sorry ... not trying to be awkward .. but i cannot embrace such a thing as that just yet, without something a bit more, erm .. solid .. to go on .... i do appreciate dark matter makes the sums work .. thats fine .. ironically, i realise the concept of black holes was conceived in a similar manner ... on the chalk board, with no basis in reality at the time .. but not enough reason for me to conclude dark matter definitely exists ..

So .. with regards to what is holding the galaxy together in its form ... its back to my fence on that one for now

I appreciate, and understand what you say about how a galaxy is formed .. i can see how, the gas could already spinning prior the massive black holes birth (although the last i heard on how the galaxies were made, complete with super massive black hole in centre, these theories were still being revised, and formed, since the discovery of supermassive black holes churning away at the centre) ...

I truly appreciate you taking the time to explain all that .. and giving me what i wanted with regards to the dynamics of a black holes gravity .. where you say ..
"Gravity pulls equally on external mass from all directions, but the centripetal force of the rotating black hole greatly overpowers the force of gravity near the event horizon, forcing that matter (which comes in from all directions) to the equator. " .....

so the centripetal force at that point is greater than the gravity ... thats what i imagined ... but in my mind .. i further hypotheised, that perhaps it could be great enough to warp its own gravity ....

I do understand it is its gravity that is warping light around (from other galaxies say), and stopping any light escaping from the event horizon once it passes over (from perhaps matter it is devouring) .... and im certainly not suggesting there is not a mind boggling huge gravitation pull from all directions around the black hole ... just that, could a black holes gravity be warped by the speed and force of its own centripetal force, as to 'pull', some of its otherwise evenly spread out gravity .. down, and more concentrated, at its equators .... by a relevant amount

Can anyone here say with absolute certainty, that it definitely doesnt happen .. its impossible for a super massive black hole to warp its own gravitation field in the way i just suggested ...
What if i told you i had a PHD in astrophysics (which i dont)... would my idea gain any further weight and gain further consideration by anyone ? although its kinda irrelevant to what i was saying earlier, if indeed, it is not responsible for holding the galaxy 'together' as such ... But i still find it hard to accept in my mind, that a super massive black hole gravity would be even from all angles ...

I am not certain even our best minds could say with absolute certainty i am wrong ...
can you guarentee absolutely, its gravity must and would be even all over .. are you so sure you would bet your life on it .. or just sure enough to bet several grand ..
Im generally curious ... nothing is set in stone here yet with regards to what is holding it all together in my opinion ..

I understand what you are saying about not being able to pinpoint passing through a centre of a plane to one day in december next year ... fair enough .... prior to speaking with you .. i just assumed main stream science knew this .. due to the way it was presented to me ..


So its not a supermassive black holes grip that keeps us swirling, so much as all the galaxies matter was already set in motion this way, and continues uninterrupted ... Brings us back to the mass of the matter of the galaxy (stars and planets etc), creating its own gravitational force .. and keeping itself in check .. like a self regulating system i guess ... combined gravity of the whole ..

and there is no absolute dead centre to teh galactic plan as such ..

okay ..

so answer me this ...

as we are bobbing up and down ... and you say it takes millions of years ... when we get to the top, or the bottom of one of these 'bobs' .. and our solar system slows down, on its vertical vibration .. as it reaches the very end of its path ... and slows right down .. gradually, briefly appearing to stop, before making its long road back the opposite direction again .. What happens to our lovely planet then ?

.. ahaaa .. kidding .. i guess thats another thread for another time .. hopefully millions of years ...

Many thanks Sir