Egypt to re-open Rafah border with Gaza

Originally posted by gem_man
Israelguy,
I am hopeful that IF the Palestinians have another election Hamas will be erased from the political picture. They will however in my opinion remain a disruptive force for quite a while.

That's the main problem.

You see, the average Gaza resident is not stupid. They know Hamas is destructive for their future. They know that without Hamas their future will be better. So why would they still vote for them?

Because they get killed if they don't. Simple as that.

Hamas is a disruptive force in the area as you say, in such a huge extent that most people don't even realize it. They are the exact reason why there cannot be peace between Israel and Palestine as of this moment.

Personal added opinion - I've been in the IDF. Trust me, if Israel is such a devil and cares not about the public opinions, and it's only goal is to destroy the Palestinian entity in Gaza, we would've done it years ago. Currently the IDF can level out Gaza completely in a matter of one hour or two. Afterwards there will be no Hamas, no Palestinian "problem", and nobody cares about what the public opinion says, right?

No, that's not the issue. Israel tries it's best (although it's best is not enough at times) to find a logical solution to this Hamas issue that will maintain both the Israeli civilians security, and the option for peace between the two entities.

I think blaming Hamas is really quite wrong. I havn't got time right now to go into all the aspects but a quick look at Wiki tells you Hamas was founded in 1987 and didnt gain power till much later.

So are you telling me that before Hamas existed Israel was ready to comply with the wishes of Arabs and the international community? .... ummm no they did not. So Hamas is just an excuse for Israel.

Also I notice that Hamas is a splinter from the Muslim Brotherhood which is gaining strength in the entire region. Does this mean Israel will along with its friends condem all countries that end up with MB governments as illegal terrorists. The west is currently backing these guys.

Israel's zionist policies are the reason for the unrest in Israel/Palestine, nothing else. It's the same reason there is an islamist uprising, because zionist backed despots have held these people back for so long. It's no wonder they want to throw off the shackles and break free, just as palestinians have been trying to do for some time.

Originally posted by bigyinI think blaming Hamas is really quite wrong. I havn't got time right now to go into all the aspects but a quick look at Wiki tells you Hamas was founded in 1987 and didnt gain power till much later.

Before Hamas was founded there were other terrorist groups in power. Look up PLO.

Also I notice that Hamas is a splinter from the Muslim Brotherhood which is gaining strength in the entire region. Does this mean Israel will along with its friends condem all countries that end up with MB governments as illegal terrorists. The west is currently backing these guys.

Don't worry about what will happen IF things go a certain way. WHEN things start going in a certain way you may want to start what's going to happen. So far your scenario is far fetched.

Israel's zionist policies are the reason for the unrest in Israel/Palestine, nothing else. It's the same reason there is an islamist uprising, because zionist backed despots have held these people back for so long. It's no wonder they want to throw off the shackles and break free, just as palestinians have been trying to do for some time.

How on earth would that apply to the rebels of Syria? Iran? Libya? These countries were controlled by Zionists aswell? I don't get it.

A documentary done by an israeli living in Israel
.
topdocumentaryfilms.com...

I think it shows the ugly side of Israeli and the countries that back it up, and you're telling me that Hamas or palastenians resisting Israel occupation are terrorists ? what should they do ? have a party and fire fireworks ? is that what you would do if you get you're land taken away from you and have your community die and live in humiliation ? .

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


I haven't got a scenario.

and I don't get it either, but I'm trying to work it out.

Did anyone notice the BBC reporter said that "Mubarak had an aversion to the Islamic based take over of Gaza by Hamas". What? How do you "take over" something that was there's the whole time? Biased much?

reply to post by IsraeliGuy


He's saying Israel has their nose (no massively large pun intended) in all of the neighboring countries business by way of spying.

Israel has been caught several times over the years, posing as other nationalities, and its no surprise that they are in places like Syria, spreading the revolution. You'd be naive to think they arent.

reply to post by bigyin


The people of the middle east are determined to kill each other. They are simply using Israel for an excuse to somewhat unite them against a common enemy. The majority of the citizens of Israel are actually from Europe. They have allowed to let themselves be used with brainwashing by the powers that be . The taxpayers of the US has footed the bill to build the Israeli military and other aide. Then build the Egyptian military to protect. All this money going into the pockets of weapons and defense companies. All of this has to be done in order to protect a people who were convinced to move there and need protection. Its the biggest scam of the 20th century. Unfortunately a lot of lives and misery follows. What proved to me how well it is all planned out was when I managed to get a copy of Albert Pikes Morals and Dogma book. It stated that there had to be a WWIII in the Middle East. The proof is that the book was written in the late 1800's beore there was a WWI and WWII. However it had stated about WWIII. Franklin Roosevelt once said if it happens in politics you better know it was planned that way. This has been a long time in the planning. Is there anything that can be done to stop it? Very unlikely.

reply to post by backinblack

You mean Israel lets in what little it decides?

Do you have any idea what amounts of supplies and aid Israel lets in?
Do you have even the slightest clue? Tons of construction materials go in to Gaza every day.

But your being clueless is aside the point, the point is that wouldn't everybody be much happier if Egypt handled all of this?
Let them have it..

Also let them supply electricity and water. It'd be better for all of us.

You only blindly respect Israel so that line just P%$$%$ me off..

It's a sign of respect to *you*, as a human being, with opinions which I might disagree with, but can be valid non the less.
I have no respect for people who use schools as a firing platform, and I have even less respect for those who would bomb a school for no apparent reason.
It goes both ways, is all I'm saying.

Plus you haven't addressed any of my points-
Why should Hamas get weapons when the destruction of Israel is on its charter, and why is it that the PA get all the guns it wants and Hamas doesn't?

With respect (something you should learn perhaps),
Eliad.

reply to post by bigyin

But hasn't the international community not been calling for Israel to lift the blockade and allow suppllies in and also been sending ships with aid only for Israel to stop them.

I don't understand your arguement. You seem to be saying that because Israel supplies basic things then that gives them the right to say what goes in, but if somebody else took over all the basic stuff would that mean anything would get in because Israel would have no further say in the matter.

That's hardly what I'm saying..

I'm simply saying that if Egypt really wants to help it needs to assume Israel's responsibilities for Gaza. Gaza gets supplies, it gets tons of supplies daily, now that there have been changes in the policy of the blockade, but still it would be better for them if Egypt handled all those things rather than Israel, no?

I think your talking rubbish.

Yeah, yeah, what else is new
As usual you missed my point completely and put me in your nice little Israeli stereotype..

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by gem_man


The rockets do more than damage to property.. Running to the bomb shelter five times a day makes life difficult on those being targeted.
Yes, it's not even comparable to the lives of those in Gaza, but is that a good enough reason for the Israeli government to say "Oh, alright, whatever"?

Besides, look at the West Bank, do you really think things will get worse in Gaza once Hamas lays down their arms?

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by Ryanssuperman

Israel has been caught several times over the years, posing as other nationalities, and its no surprise that they are in places like Syria, spreading the revolution. You'd be naive to think they arent.

Care to elaborate?

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by bigyin

 

Or maybe Israel will attack Egypt like it did in the past..
I hear schools were easy targets..

I guess history wasn't your strong suit it was the other way around but who cares about the details right!

Now back to the thread i don't think Israel will be that concerned to be honest. In the past Egypt kept the border closed to prevent them from having to deal with Gaza not to protect the Israelis. As far as smuggling in weapons really doesn't matter they have been getting them with the border closed. If anything this should help it loosens the grip of hamas on the people.

reply to post by Eliad

Do you have any idea what amounts of supplies and aid Israel lets in?
Do you have even the slightest clue? Tons of construction materials go in to Gaza every day.

Yeah mate, the UN etc say Israel lets in about 1/4 of what is actually needed..

reply to post by dragonridr

I guess history wasn't your strong suit it was the other way around but who cares about the details right!

I think it's you that needs to read up on history or maybe stop reading the new and revised Israeli edition.

reply to post by backinblack


Doesn't matter, Israel still lets in tons of aid and materials *daily*, this isn't nothing, this isn't little.. You do realize they have to check all of it for illegal materials, right?

Besides who do you think these UN people are? How accurate you think their assessments are? I've met these people, they're good people, but they're not always the most objective bunch...

More importantly- What makes you think Israel can answer the demand?

At any rate since the recent change in policy I've heard that the supply of construction materials has risen dramatically, and that there's no real shortage of those commodities in Gaza at the moment..

Anyways..
Point was that Egypt would probably meet the quota, right? So... Why not? Right?

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by Eliad


Mate, most countries consider the entire blockade illegal so your point is really moot..

But Israel IS deliberately starving the entire population..
It also controls all utilities which seem to stop at regular intervals..

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

I would like to adress you claims. You have obviusly offered the community here on ATS disinformation. I in no way, shape or form condone the actions that Hamas inacts. I hope that in the relative near future they disolve as a political orginization and are subsequently weaken or destroyed as a terrorist force.

You see, the average Gaza resident is not stupid. They know Hamas is destructive for their future. They know that without Hamas their future will be better. So why would they still vote for them?

You are right, Hamas is damaging for the average Gazan resident and many can see that under Fatah the same problems would not be evident. However there is a readon why Gazans would vote for Hamas. It is simple. Hamas offered the basic care that Gazans needed. They offered medical care, schools and the basic necesities required. I would almost gaurantee however that at the next election Hamas would not be re-elected.

No, that's not the issue. Israel tries it's best (although it's best is not enough at times) to find a logical solution to this Hamas issue that will maintain both the Israeli civilians security, and the option for peace between the two entities.

I can find a logical solution. In-fact Hamas have even agreed to garuantee peace if this solution is put in place. The solution is- a full withdrawal from the occupied territories to the pre-existing June 1967 borders. I think if an alien were to land on space it would laugh at the state of affairs between Israel-Palestine as it is one of the least complicated conflicts on the face of the planet.

reply to post by Eliad

You've heard? I'm sorry but here on ATS your word isn't enough- We require sources and proof otherwise that section of your argument will be disregarded.
I would just like to clarify with you which products are barred from entering Gaza by Israel.
Here is a PDF of the large list of products barred from entering. This list is outrageous as products such as construction material, tents, cattle and livestock are banned from entering. These products are necassary to make Gaza self-sufficient otherwise they will be dependants on the small amount of aid that reaches Gaza.
Why are newspapers banned? Is Hamas going to roll them up and invade Israel clubbing the IDF to death>

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by dragonridr

 

I guess history wasn't your strong suit it was the other way around but who cares about the details right!

I think it's you that needs to read up on history or maybe stop reading the new and revised Israeli edition.

Your history lesson May 14th 1948, The armies of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq attacked Israel. Few people thought Israel was going to survive however they did and forced them to negotiate peace. This peace included access to the canal.

The year 1956 Nassar started making incursions into Israel from gaza Israels response the Arab Israeli war in 1957 to stop the incursions Israel takes mitla pass to block Egypt access to Gaza and takes the Suez canal mostly at behest of the British who were planning an invasion from malta.So once again Nassar started the conflict!

Now we move to the 6 day war Gamal Abdel Nasser started the conflict again!! Egypt massed approximately 100,000 troops into the Sinai peninsula and expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai. Then violated the 1957 agreement by closing the straight to Israel even though he was warned this is an act of war.And then took other Egyptian troops to fortify positions in Jordan(which Nasser actually had to convince to attack Israel with falsified intel) . This means the Egyptians made the first moves towards the conflict. This meant the Israelis really only had 1 option left.If they waited for Iran Jordan and Syria to finish there troop deployments Israel wouldn't be here today. Nasser knew he was starting a war he just underestimated the force the Israelis would bring to bear on him.

Yom kippur war again Egyptian troops attack Israel On order from Sadat once again as before same outcome they lost. The interesting thing about this is everyone wouldnt talk peace as long as the Arab league was winning it wasn't until Israel started to win the war that everyone started trying to negotiate the peace. Secretly i think the UN the west and Russia hoped Israel would loose but thats another story.

So in short looking at these wars id say its hard to say that Israel was just beating up on poor Egypt wouldn't you say?