It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by projectvxn
Rich people sign paychecks.
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Rich people earn more than 80% of this nations wealth, they pay 60% in taxes likewise.
Ricardo quotes Adam Smith, who, according to him, “so accurately defined the original source of exchangeable value” (Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, Book I, Chap 5 [An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations, first edition appearing in London, 1776]), and he adds:
“That this (i.e., labor time) is really the foundation of the exchangeable value of all things, excepting those which cannot be increased by human industry, is a doctrine of the utmost importance in political economy; for from no source do so many errors, and so much difference of opinion in that science proceed, as from the vague ideas which are attached to the word value.”
(Vol.I, p.8)
“If the quantity of labor realized in commodities regulate their exchangeable value, every increase of the quantity of labor must augment the value of that commodity on which it is exercised, as every diminution must lower it.”
(Vol.I, p.8)
Ricardo goes on to reproach Smith:
1. With having “himself erected another standard measure of value” than labor. “Sometimes he speaks of corn, at other times of labor, as a standard measure; not the quantity of labor bestowed on the production of any object, but the quantity it can command in the market.” (Vol.I, pp.9 and 10)
2. With having “admitted the principle without qualification and at the same time restricted its application to that early and rude state of society, which precedes both the accumulation of stock and the appropriation of land.” (Vol.I, p.21)
Ricardo sets out to prove that the ownership of land, that is, ground rent, cannot change the relative value of commodities and that the accumulation of capital has only a passing and fluctuation effect on the relative values determined by the comparative quantity of labor expended on their production. In support of this thesis, he gives his famous theory of ground rent, analyses capital, and ultimately finds nothing in it but accumulated labor. Then he develops a whole theory of wages and profits, and proves that wages and profits rise and fall in inverse ratio to each other, without affecting the relative value of the product. He does not neglect the influence that the accumulation of capital and its different aspects (fixed capital and circulating capital), as also the rate of wages, can have on the proportional value of products. In fact, they are the chief problems with which Ricardo is concerned.
“Economy in the use of labor never fails to reduce the relative value [*1] of a commodity, whether the saving be in the labor necessary to the manufacture of the commodity itself, or in that necessary to the formation of the capital, by the aid of which it is produced."
(Vol.I, p.28)
“Under such circumstance the value of the deer, the produce of the hunter’s day’s labor, would be exactly equal to the value of the fish, the produce of the fisherman’s day’s labor. The comparative value of the fish and the game would be entirely regulated by the quantity of labor realized in each, whatever might be the quantity of production, or however high or low general wages or profits might be.”
(Vol.I, p.28)
“In making labor the foundation of the value of commodities and the comparative quantity of labor which is necessary to their production, the rule which determines the respective quantities of goods which shall be given in exchange for each other, we must not be supposed to deny the accidental and temporary deviations of the actual or market price of commodities from this, their primary and natural price.”
(Vol.I, p.105, l. c.)
“It is the cost of production which must ultimately regulate the price of commodities, and not, as has been often said, the proportion between supply and demand.”
(Vol.II, p.253)
Lord Lauderdale had developed the variations of exchange value according to the law of supply and demand, or of scarcity and abundance relatively to demand. In his opinion the value of a thing can increase when its quantity decreases or when the demand for it increases; it can decrease owing to an increase of its quantity or owing to the decrease in demand. Thus the value of a thing can change through eight different causes, namely, four causes that apply to money or to any other commodity which serves as a measure of its value. Here is Ricardo’s refutation:
“Commodities which are monopolized, either by an individual, or by a company, vary according to the law which Lord Laudersdale has laid down: they fall in proportion as the sellers augment their quantity, and rise in proportion to the eagerness of the buyers to purchase them; their price has no necessary connexion with their natural value; but the prices of commodities, which are subject to competition, and whose quantity may be increased in any moderate degree, will ultimately depend, not on the state of demand and supply, but on the increased or diminished cost of their production.”
(Vol.II, p.259)
We shall leave it to the reader to make the comparison between this simple, clear, precise language of Ricardo’s and M. Proudhon’s rhetorical attempts to arrive at the determination of relative value by labor time.
Ricardo shows us the real movement of bourgeois production, which constitutes value
[...]
Ricardo establishes the truth of his formula by deriving it from all economic relations, and by explaining in this way all phenomena, even those like ground rent, accumulation of capital and the relation of wages to profits, which at first sight seems to contradict it; it is precisely that which makes his doctrine a scientific system.
[...]
Doubtless, Ricardo’s language is as cynical as can be. To put the cost of manufacture of hats and the cost of maintenance of men on the same plane is to turn men into hats. But do not make an outcry at the cynicism of it. The cynicism is in the facts and not in the words which express the facts. French writers like M.M. Droz, Blanqui, Rossi and others take an innocent satisfaction in proving their superiority over the English economists, by seeking to observe the etiquette of a “humanitarian” phraseology; if they reproach Ricardo and his school for their cynical language, it is because it annoys them to see economic relations exposed in all their crudity, to see the mysteries of the bourgeoisie unmasked.
To sum up: Labor, being itself a commodity, is measured as such by the labor time needed to produce the labor-commodity. And what is needed to produce this labor-commodity? Just enough labor time to produce the objects indispensable to the constant maintenance of labor, that is, to keep the worker alive and in a condition to propagate his race. The natural price of labor is no other than the wage minimum. [*2] If the current rate of wages rises above this natural price, it is precisely because the law of value put as a principle by M. Proudhon happens to be counterbalanced by the consequences of the varying relations of supply and demand. But the minimum wage is nonetheless the centre towards which the current rates of wages gravitate.
Originally posted by Sinnthia
Originally posted by beezzer
It was an honest reply. If you want to base the Tea Party on ME, then go right ahead. You'd be limiting yourself, though.
Again, I never even hinted that I would base anything on anything. Why is it so hard for people to just respond to what I write instead of the preplanned arguments they already have?
TRY TO PAY ATTENTION THIS TIME.
I simply asked if talking with and reading posts from TEA party people on ATS
COUNTED AS INTERACTION WITH REAL TEA PARTY MEMBERS.
Nothing about basing anything on anyone, nothing about generalizing, nothing about any of the things you have responded with. It is a such a simple question. My head hurts from this, it is almost scary.
I am not sure how to dumb it down anymore. Two responses and neither of them were to what I asked.
I am just asking if talking to you counts as interacting with a TEA party member. That is all I asked, 4 times now. I am sorry if it is not coming across as it should. I really have no idea how else to ask it.
Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by drew1749
No offense received. You're obviously a leftist bigot who hates people who disagree with your party line. Care to share more of your delightful insight?
Consider the Internal Revenue Service's income tax statistics for 2008, the latest year for which data are available. The top 1% of taxpayers—those with salaries, dividends and capital gains roughly above about $380,000—paid 38% of taxes. But assume that tax policy confiscated all the taxable income of all the "millionaires and billionaires" Mr. Obama singled out. That yields merely about $938 billion, which is sand on the beach amid the $4 trillion White House budget, a $1.65 trillion deficit, and spending at 25% as a share of the economy, a post-World War II record.
So who else is there to tax? Well, in 2008, there was about $5.65 trillion in total taxable income from all individual taxpayers, and most of that came from middle income earners. The nearby chart shows the distribution, and the big hump in the center is where Democrats are inevitably headed for the same reason that Willie Sutton robbed banks.
This is politically risky, however, so Mr. Obama's game has always been to pretend not to increase taxes for middle class voters while looking for sneaky ways to do it. His first budget in 2009 included a "climate revenues" section from the indirect carbon tax of cap and trade, which of course would be passed down to all consumers. Such Democratic luminaries as Nancy Pelosi have often chattered about a European-style value-added tax, or VAT, which from a liberal perspective has the virtue of applying to every level of production or service and therefore is largely hidden from the people who pay it.
Now that those two ideas have failed politically, Mr. Obama is turning as he did last week to limiting tax deductions and other "loopholes," such as for mortgage interest payments. We support doing away with these distortions too, and so does Mr. Ryan, but in return for lower tax rates. Mr. Obama just wants the extra money, which he says will reduce the deficit but in practice will merely enable more spending.
Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by bruji76
when have reached a point in modern society when people have forgotten that employer and employee are dependent upon each other.
where have now reach that point when the employee(i dont have enough keep giving me more and more) and the employer( who continually has to spend and spend more and more and take more risk and pays for that land and equipment and continually be told who they cant and cant hire,what they can and cant make, how they can and cant make and where they can and cant sell it and how much they can and cant sell it for.
Originally posted by General.Lee
As far as the Tea Party being created by "billionaires", I've sourced information in the past that showed there was no clear information showing one political leaning was wealthier than the other. It ebbs and flows depending on who is promising the most to big business.
The reality its, the right understands free enterprise better than the left. The left thinks that money for charity just materializes out of thin air. In an ideal society, the wealth of that society is created by free enterprise not government confiscation.
I find it ironic that people will bash "big business" and wealthy people but those same people are the first ones in line to take the hand-outs that the government confiscated from big business.
The bottom line is, the left is afraid of the Tea Party because they love it when Big Brother has the final say and dictates what everybody does. This way, the "wealthy elite" can be controlled. If the Tea Party takes root, it will be a step in taking control back from the government.
I hate to break it to you, but the wealthiest among us contribute the most to our economy and society. Let me make this clear; the government doesn't have any money. They take it from US. Then they turn around and create entitlement programs and give us our own money back. By beating down billionaires, you are effectively trying to slay the proverbial goose that laid the golden egg. Does that really make sense? I fail to see any logic in that thinking.
Originally posted by drew1749
Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by drew1749
No offense received. You're obviously a leftist bigot who hates people who disagree with your party line. Care to share more of your delightful insight?
Yes let us make assumptions.
You are obviously a person who thinks Obama is the anti-christ.
See I can say things without proof also.
My Insight? My insight is this:
Ignorance - The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.
So you ignored videos just because you had a feeling that they were propaganda? Right?
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Originally posted by projectvxn
Rich people sign paychecks.
Rich people earn more than 80% of this nations wealth, they pay 60% in taxes likewise. It's more than a fair trade. What's more, giving tax cuts do the wealthy does not equate to more jobs and opportunity. Reagan lowered taxes from 50% to 28% during his term and that only increased the wealth disparity. Bush senior cut $1 trillion in taxes focused on the wealthy and what did this change? We've seen an increase in jobs being shifted overseas, an increase is wealth disparity, meanwhile companies like GE dodge most of the taxes they owe.
In theory A+B=C. That doesn't mean it will work in exact when applied to real world standards. Trickle down economics is but a theory and that is all it's been. We know full well about the theory of trickle down economics and it's been proven a load of crock as demonstrated over the last 30 years.
Originally posted by dragonridr
Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Originally posted by projectvxn
Rich people sign paychecks.
Rich people earn more than 80% of this nations wealth, they pay 60% in taxes likewise. It's more than a fair trade. What's more, giving tax cuts do the wealthy does not equate to more jobs and opportunity. Reagan lowered taxes from 50% to 28% during his term and that only increased the wealth disparity. Bush senior cut $1 trillion in taxes focused on the wealthy and what did this change? We've seen an increase in jobs being shifted overseas, an increase is wealth disparity, meanwhile companies like GE dodge most of the taxes they owe.
In theory A+B=C. That doesn't mean it will work in exact when applied to real world standards. Trickle down economics is but a theory and that is all it's been. We know full well about the theory of trickle down economics and it's been proven a load of crock as demonstrated over the last 30 years.
Disparity is a joke in case you were not aware you have to look at percentages. For example the average household income increased by $4000 under Reagan. Did the income increase as well of course it did that's what happens when the economy does well people make more money. Lets say you have 2 people 1 person makes 500000 a year the other 50000 a year. Now they both see a 10% the one is now making 550000 and the other 55000. Both got the same benefit from the economic times but my god the disparity increased!!!!!!!!! Iguess that means we need to take 45000 from the one and give it to the other guy right so we can decrease that disparity? what ever happened to people working hard to achieve there goals? I was laid off my job made great money then what did i do went back to scholl got another degree and now im making money again am i done no im not. The trick of life is you either except your lot in life or do something to change it. If your poor its no ones fault but your own you acepted it. Helping people is great i for one think we should have healthcare for americans however should we pay for your housing food clothes? I personally think stuff needs to be earned not given.