A Village With the Numbers, Not the Image, of the Poorest Place

A Village With the Numbers, Not the Image, of the Poorest Place

www.nytimes.com

The poorest place in the United States is not a dusty Texas border town, a hollow in Appalachia
Crime is virtually nonexistent.

Nearly half of the village’s households reported less than $15,000 in annual income.

About half of the residents receive food stamps, and one-third receive Medicaid benefits and rely on federal vouchers to help pay their housing costs.

Ultra-Orthodox Satmar Hasidic Jews predominate in the village
The concentration of poverty in Kiryas Joel, (pronounced KIR-yas Jo-E

(visit the link for the full news article)

Here's the reason why I posted this:

Most residents, raised as Yiddish speakers, do not speak much English. And most men devote themselves to Torah and Talmud studies rather than academic training — only 39 percent of the residents are high school graduates, and less than 5 percent have a bachelor’s degree. Several hundred adults study full time at religious institutions.

My only question is usually when you are on welfare status you have to prove that you are trying to find a job.

But if you live in the U.S., do not speak english and devote your life to religious books and only speak Yiddish, a language that most jewish people(guessing here) do not speak then you most likely aren't looking for a job.
I say most don't speak yiddish as most jewish people speak hebrew and only rabbis tend to speak yiddish, please correct me if i'm wrong.

They are basically like Amish people, but Amish people do not collect food stamps or anything of the sort, they just rely on farming, their own farming from their own community.

Sure, some work at ultra-orthodox religious schools, but not everyone, so i'm not talking about those that work.

Are these guys cheating the system?
If you read the entire article it does seem like so

Thoughts?

www.nytimes.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Well, it certainly turns some stereotypes about poor people and rich Jewish bankers on their heads.

I dont know what to say, honestly. The fundamentalist Mormons have been know to exploit the system for religious ends too. Personally, I feel that public monies should not be used to fund religious belief systems, even in this manner.

The how to separate it out from other people not trying to educate themselves and limiting their reproduction is the problem.

I dont know. When the system finally does collapse, I guess they are going to have to come up with a new strategy.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


I guess in reality, they do not have to look for work in order to recieve
Food Stamps benefit, and Medicaid...

No pun intended here, from your link...

“I cannot say as a group that they are cheating the system,” said William B. Helmreich, a sociology professor who specializes in Judaic studies at City College of the City University of New York, “but I do think that they have, no pun intended, unorthodox methods of getting financial support.” www.nytimes.com

So it seems in a way they are gaming the system, yes.

I don't see much of a problem, it's more or less a poor religious community of people of extremely deep faith and convictions.

I don't think it's fair or wise to compare them to the Amish because the Amish are farmers and land owners while these people are cosmopolitan and peasants.

It seems like a tight knit community intent on bolstering it's numbers through prodigious breeding, which prevents the woman of the household from working a good portion of the time.

Because of their outward appearance and stringent beliefs they probably do suffer some descrimination in hiring by companies that aren't owned by members of the same sect.

They aren't spending the government money on drugs, gambling or prostitution so I sure have little use for these people!

Ooops I mean these people aren't causing any problems.

As long as they aren't doubling up on benefits through some kind of overt fraud, I don't see a problem.

Different strokes for different folks.

I feel sorry for them, faith is not a substistute for being able to support your families and yourself.

I'm sorry, but religion does not excuse a person from leeching off the system. I think I'd like to pursue my life's dream of doing nothing except painting and reading all day. Since a day-job really gets in the way of my doing that, maybe I should consider receiving support from the Government so that I could do whatever the hell I want without some job weighing me down.

These people have found a way to exploit the system (and by "system" I mean YOU and ME). There's no excuse for it. NONE whatsoever. Learn the language, get a job, and support yourself. Can't afford child care? Stop having more children than you can support! Nobody is paying me to pursue my religious aspirations, and I wouldn't even DREAM of having all the working tax payers supporting me unless I had absolutely no way of earning an income any other way. These people are poor, because they choose to be poor. There's no excuse. This is shameful. ABSOLUTELY shameful. Just because a person believes in some God, prays and reads religious books all day doesn't mean he/she is a "good/decent" person. I think we've had plenty of proof of that in human history.

reply to post by 2manyquestions


They aren't exploiting me! I don't support the system, in part because it's a system. System being another word for racket.

The treasury is 14 Trillion dollars in debt a good portion of it for wars and interests on loans to buy equipment and fight wars.

Much of that equipment over priced to begin with because the money paying for it comes through a racket to extort people indoctrinated into the system.

That you imagine your money is going to these people is in fact part of a system that allows the above to occur.

Your money isn't going to these people, your money is going to a system that taxing you simply signifies your support of it and the justifaction for spending so much money on exporting the system violently too other parts of the world.

I would much rather see your money go to these poor people living peacefully and causing no trouble than paying for wars of agression to export this system and elements of it.

Regardless these people aren't taking advantage of me or exploiting me because I don't support the system, nor are they exploiting you the system is exploiting you.

These people are simply able to exploit that system because they vote in blocks, rather large blocks that can get politicians elected to the system to keep on exploiting everyone.

So to that regard they have a real value to the system, perhaps even greater than your own.

Regardless its the system that exploits you.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I don't think it's fair or wise to compare them to the Amish because the Amish are farmers and land owners while these people are cosmopolitan and peasants.

I would agree that it's not fair to compare them to the Amish only because the Amish do not ask working people to support them.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Because of their outward appearance and stringent beliefs they probably do suffer some descrimination in hiring by companies that aren't owned by members of the same sect.

I'd say they suffer from the possibility of not being employed only because they don't know english and chose to not have skills that are employable.

If they were even more religious than they are but seeked skills and knew english then I wouldn't have so much of a have an issue.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
They aren't exploiting me! I don't support the system, in part because it's a system. System being another word for racket.

Do you pay taxes?
I'm sure you do because you have to eat and travel and wear clothing my friend
System is another word for racket, but then again even they have a system
Whatever form of whatever that a community or state/country has it can always be called a system
Even anarchy can be called a system
Even different parents have their own form of parental systems, don't you agree?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The treasury is 14 Trillion dollars in debt a good portion of it for wars and interests on loans to buy equipment and fight wars.

Fair enough, I do agree with that
But part of not believing in a nanny state is not believing in giving welfare to those that chose not to support themselves, no matter how much we may try to differentiate between the two we cannot.
At least that's my opinion

Part of the goal of TPTB is to make people dependant on Govt., this is how the people allow Govt. to do whatever they want.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Your money isn't going to these people, your money is going to a system that taxing you simply signifies your support of it and the justifaction for spending so much money on exporting the system violently too other parts of the world.

I believe that making people dependent on Govt. is very much part of the same system that you speak of.
Keyword in Nanny state is Nanny.
I see where you are coming from though, but I think it's only part of the picture.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


As far as not paying taxes there really are many ways around that, a lot of people assume it can't be done, and or is wrong and or the risk is too great.

When it comes to establishing yourself as a Tax Payer if you don't sign anything that identifies you as a Tax Payer well you clearly aren't a Tax Payer.

You will note that all IRS Corespondences are addressed to Tax Payer.

So the first thing is being very careful not to identify yourself as a Tax Payer.

Many people also falsely assume you can not get away with paying sales or over the counter taxes, but the truth is there are too ways, by either establishing yourself as a religion or charity you can recieve a tax exemption number from the IRS or if you live some place (like I do) that has 'Soveriegn Indian Reservations' nearby, shopping from tribal stores on tribal land will get you out of paying sales taxes as they don't charge or collect taxes for states or the federal government and are not required to per their treaties and sovereign status.

Perhaps one of the hardest to get around is Gasoline Tax, I peddle a bicycle and simply physically tax myself in that regard.

Presently the only tax I have yet figured out a way to avoid is the communications tax on my cellular and internet service.

As far as the system creating a dependency amongst the poor, disadvantaged and others in exchange for votes and support of the system, yes that is very real.

Of course you could in essence take the money and run, and still not vote or support the system, but it is a big part of the Nanny State.

The big problem I have is the propensity of many Americans to assail those who are living some kind of alternative lifestyle if and when they do recieve government funds or concessions, but very often even when they don't.

In a lot of ways such people are helping the government to define a identical group think that I find both distasteful and dangerous to the cause of freedom.

As far as not working and not eating, you should tell that to my five kids and one grand child because none of them have jobs and eat just fine!

But the truth is a number of people are supported by alternative revenue streams be it inheritence, royalties and commissions from long ago deals, relatives or charity.

One of the things this article makes clear is that this particular community does have wealthier and charitible members who often do give to the poorer ones.

So it's not a given that these people would be starving if not for the meager assistance the government provides them in Food Stamps and to a lesser extent Cash assistance.

Our performance based world based on working at something society considers 'useful' is in fact a system fraught with unworkable factors such as available jobs.

With unemployment at record highs, not to mention the largest per capita prison population in the world that is not even on the unemployment roles, I believe you recently did a thread (at least I think it was you) that some statistics suggest only 46% of Americans actually have a job in a corporate monopoly dominated economic landscape.

So in reality people who can get by on meager government hand outs and choose to are probably doing the people who desperately want work and can't find it a favor.

It would be one thing to use the "if you don't eat you don't work" Jamestown/Virginia Company mindset in a land of opportunity for work, but the truth is opportunities to work are scarce and getting scarcer.

It really is just wanting to be your brothers keeper and if these people are scamming the US Government well it couldn't happen to a nicer entity!

reply to post by ModernAcademia

I would agree that it's not fair to compare them to the Amish only because the Amish do not ask working people to support them.

The Amish are a self supportive community. If you are an Amish male and your 19th year has come and gone and you decide to stay in the sect, land owned by your relatives will be given to you if you plan on starting a new family of your own.

Neighbors will come from miles around to help you build your house and barn and donate the materials to do so.

From there you are pretty much expected to perform and take care of yourself but the Amish are people who live by the maxim "ask and thou shall recieve" it's very rare for an Amish person to not help 'anyone' who asks them sincerely for help.

Likewise this community of Ultra Orthodox Jews seems to be very charitible towards the poorer members.

Imagine me as a frustrated aging musician who never quite made 'rock star' status, a teenager or young adult comes along I take a shine too who wants to live that dream, my dream, a dream that didn't come true for me, but might for them, so I toss them a few bucks here and there so they can pursue that dream.

Spirituality likewise is a kind of similiar dream, learning a religious discipline inside out, getting closer to the source, try climbing up to some Budhist's Masters cave in the Himalayas to seek enlightenment and to keep your day job at Wal-Mart at the same time. Not going to work out.

I'd say they suffer from the possibility of not being employed only because they don't know english and chose to not have skills that are employable.

This doesn't stop half of Miami or Los Angeles from finding work, while they might be short on skills, in our appearance driven superficial corporate world, people with funny beards and hair and hats need not apply!

If they were even more religious than they are but seeked skills and knew english then I wouldn't have so much of a have an issue.

Judge not least ye be judged, what goes around comes around.

All you are arguing for is that they either (a) have to perform in a performance based society because you and I might have to...or (b) shouldn't be able to get money from a corrupt government that creates it out of thin air and borrows and spends it like it has no value what so ever...(c) both of the above.

Me I say live and let live, these people aren't hurting anyone and I support the right of people to be 'different'.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
As far as not paying taxes there really are many ways around that, a lot of people assume it can't be done, and or is wrong and or the risk is too great.

So the first thing is being very careful not to identify yourself as a Tax Payer.

Many people also falsely assume you can not get away with paying sales or over the counter taxes, but the truth is there are too ways, by either establishing yourself as a religion or charity you can recieve a tax exemption number from the IRS

I see what you are saying however I do not see that as not being part of the system
That is very much being part of the system
Secondly to advocate what you are suggesting would destroy the economy
If you believe that not only you but also your countrymen should be free then not only those that are part of a charity/religion or live near reservations should have the right to not pay taxes.

I do personally think that your route can only work for a small minority of the population and is therefore not a solution..

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The big problem I have is the propensity of many Americans to assail those who are living some kind of alternative lifestyle if and when they do recieve government funds or concessions, but very often even when they don't.

So it's not a given that these people would be starving if not for the meager assistance the government provides them in Food Stamps and to a lesser extent Cash assistance.

I do not think they would be starving, these people, any group(s) of people's main goal is to survive.
Such a large group would not impose poverty for the sake of this variant of Judaism that they believe in.

Not only that, but here's two reasons why saying not supporting the system but supporting this community receiving welfare is an can be considered itself as very much supporting the system.

1) Expansion of Govt., it starts with allowing govt. to subsidize people having almost no sense of personal responsibility and taxing the people to subsidize such initiatives, then there's not only taking care of people like parents but also taking too much care of their safety to the point of being intrusive.
Having an intelligent society who understands that they play a role for the benefit of the people means not giving Govt. these tasks.

2) Federal Reserve, would subsidizing such communities be possible without a FIAT currency? A Fiat currency is one of the worst parts of this system, if the U.S.'s currency was not based on fraud then it would be possible to support all these communities? If I'm taking it too far then how would you foresee the country supporting this community if the U.S.'s economy was based off of Gold and Precious metals with no Income Tax?
Here i'm talking about the American citizens, not a select sub-group of them.

What do you think of the two above points?
And also in a free society, that is if you believe in a free society, shouldn't people have the right to decide whether to support said group(s)?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by 2manyquestions

 

They aren't exploiting me! I don't support the system, in part because it's a system. System being another word for racket.

Although It's already been answered, I thought I'd form my own reply. When you take money from the Government to supplement your income, you are taking tax dollars. Tax dollars are collected from people who run businesses and people who work hard to feed and educate their families. Aside from being taken out of your paycheck, tax dollars come from your pocket every time you fuel up, buy clothes, buy food, pay your utilities, so on and so forth. You can't go to a store and say "I want to buy that loaf of bread, but I don't want to pay the tax on it". They're not going to sell you that piece of bread if you don't pay the price + tax. Generally the tax is already included in the price, so I don't think most people notice or pay attention to it anymore..... unless they're buying big items such as TVs, cars, etc. We ARE the system.

The treasury is 14 Trillion dollars in debt a good portion of it for wars and interests on loans to buy equipment and fight wars.

I don't agree with the way our Government spends money. I don't want them to borrow this country into oblivion, and I don't want them to financially support people who refuse to assimilate or at least find some way of honestly earning a living without leeching off the tax payer. You're not going to find me supporting our Government throwing money around for anything that I consider a waste. If you don't have the money and you can't pay back the loans you already have, you can't afford to buy equipment to fight wars or who the hell knows what else.

Much of that equipment over priced to begin with because the money paying for it comes through a racket to extort people indoctrinated into the system.

Again here you're talking about another practice I disagree with. I don't support individuals or companies who needlessly charge exorbitant amounts of money simply because they can get away with it. This (in my book) is immoral and unethical behavior just as much as someone leeching off the system when they're physically perfectly able to find a job if only they try hard enough.

That you imagine your money is going to these people is in fact part of a system that allows the above to occur.

Your money isn't going to these people, your money is going to a system that taxing you simply signifies your support of it and the justifaction for spending so much money on exporting the system violently too other parts of the world.

My money is in fact going not only to this particular group of people, but also to thousands, if not millions of others who choose to exploit the benefits of welfare. While welfare is in place to help those in dire need, certain groups and individuals use it as a way to make a living. Why bother looking for a job when they can collect free money from the Government? That is their attitude. Are there those who genuinely need the service? Absolutely! I wouldn't deny them a single penny. Are there groups who exploit these services on a generational basis? Absolutely, and that is infuriating. I don't understand how you can defend this group of exploiters when they're taking aid money they don't really need away from people who might actually need it more. I believe in taking what you put in, if you know what I mean.

Are these people disabled? Too stupid to learn English or learn a trade? I have NOTHING against their religion or their way of life. They can study and practice any religion they wish AS LONG AS they work on supporting themselves. If I choose to go study the bible in some parish, I'm going to work for my meals. I'm not going to take hand-outs. I will earn my food, my stay and my clothing. I'll live humbly, but at least I won't be a burden on anyone else.

Let's get something straight. I'm not against paying taxes into the system. I will gladly pay if that means this money is going to be spent wisely. I want them to fix roads, build bridges, provide important quality services, maintain habitats, enforce the law, keep the cities clean and safe, offer fair business and employment opportunities, etc. Unfortunately there are so many unethical individuals within this system, that it is difficult to figure out just what they're doing with those tax dollars. There are well-meaning individuals, and then there are despicable crooks. I'm against those despicable crooks. If there is a way for me to weed them out, please enlighten me.

I would much rather see your money go to these poor people living peacefully and causing no trouble than paying for wars of agression to export this system and elements of it.

I would much rather my money goes to people who actually NEED it,... you know... like the disabled, to children without parents in foster homes, to people with terrible illness, etc. I don't care if this community of leeches is "peaceful". People should be peaceful and obey the law whether or not they receive Government aid. Being "good" and "peaceful" is not a qualification for free money. Shouldn't we be doing that anyway?

Regardless these people aren't taking advantage of me or exploiting me because I don't support the system, nor are they exploiting you the system is exploiting you.

You may not realize it, but you and I, we are being exploited from all sides. If you live in this country, you are affected by it whether or not you want to admit it. Just because one side is O.K. with exploiting us, it doesn't make it O.K. for the other side to do it as well.

These people are simply able to exploit that system because they vote in blocks, rather large blocks that can get politicians elected to the system to keep on exploiting everyone.

We ARE the system. You, me, your neighbor, we're the system. The system doesn't exist outside of us, it's not some magical force that keeps us in line. We govern ourselves by our own system. "System" is just a word that describes our laws and our way of life.

This group of people that come together in large numbers and vote politicians in place who will do as they say. They are exploiting us, because they come together to elect people into our office who will give them freebies from our pockets. Those freebies are paid for by the tax payers,... which includes millions of people outside of their little community. The money they take from us is the money that could have helped somebody who truly had no way of supporting him/herself. It could have been better-spent. To purposely, intentionally exploit anyone in a harmful way goes against my morals,... but maybe that's just me. I know we've become a nation of I'll-get-mine-and-screw-everyone-else, but we have got to draw a line somewhere.

So to that regard they have a real value to the system, perhaps even greater than your own.

Regardless its the system that exploits you.

What value do they have that makes it better than mine? What happens when the taxpayer can't give anymore? What if our pockets are empty? How will they survive then? No more food stamps, no more money to pay rent, no more medical. They just might have to take their noses out of their books and start looking for ways to survive on their own. Once my pockets are empty, you better believe that I'm not going to put an ounce of my energy into helping them maintain their lifestyles. I'll be too busy helping those who are willing to help themselves, who are willing to do what's good and right for everyone, not just for their own little group. If one day they populated 3/4ths of the U.S., they'd starve to death, because they wouldn't have anyone to take from anymore.

You know,... I'm sure that if it came down to having to work to survive, they'd do it. I don't doubt for a SECOND that they're incapable of it. I'm pretty damned sure they can take care of themselves quite well. They're very clever, and that is something that probably bothers me the most. They use their intelligence to exploit in order to lead the lives they want to lead (everyone else be damned), and that doesn't sit well with me one bit.

this is a small percentage of the real jews that still exist today.

their religion has been hijacked by zionists.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Many Hasids in Tuxedo NY and up that way. Odd to go for a drive and see the horse drawn carts in the roads. This part of the story was incredible.

One lawmaker, Assemblywoman Nancy Calhoun, a Republican who represents an adjacent district in Orange County, has demanded an investigation by state officials into why Kiryas Joel received grants for the center. “They may be truly poor on paper,” Ms. Calhoun said. “They are not truly poor in reality.”

Dirt poor as far as I can tell. Seems as if her definition of "needy" has to be screaming. Thats cruel.

wow interesting article