Chance accident or Creator. I have proven it. Now refute it.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking the CONTENT of what you post...and that content is garbage. Look, everything you posted in the original thread has been refuted, including the very same questions you asked in this thread. Yet you decide to just repost them.

And my list of fallacious arguments are based on logic, google "fallacious arguments" and you'll understand.

The fact remains, nothing you posted is based on objective evidence....all you do is PREACH you personal belief. A belief that isn't backed up in the least by science, logic, or objective evidence. You ask for people to refute your claims, when that has already happened. Your claims are demonstrably wrong, and it's been pointed out to you. You just chose to ignore everything that goes against your belief, no matter ho logical and well backed up by science it is.

And no, I won't stop posting as long as you try to dumb down the people with pseudo-science and fallacious arguments. Either start backing up your arguments with objective evidence, or deal with me pointing out what a bunch of nonsense your claims are.

Really. In the last thread you called me ignorant and dishonest. My posts stand on my position. Again. In this post, you are talking about the object of me. You are not talking anything to the subject. Leave me out of it and just provide some context to the thread. That's not hard to do. Speak to the subject, don't step on the object.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking the CONTENT of what you post...and that content is garbage. Look, everything you posted in the original thread has been refuted, including the very same questions you asked in this thread. Yet you decide to just repost them.

And my list of fallacious arguments are based on logic, google "fallacious arguments" and you'll understand.

The fact remains, nothing you posted is based on objective evidence....all you do is PREACH you personal belief. A belief that isn't backed up in the least by science, logic, or objective evidence. You ask for people to refute your claims, when that has already happened. Your claims are demonstrably wrong, and it's been pointed out to you. You just chose to ignore everything that goes against your belief, no matter ho logical and well backed up by science it is.

And no, I won't stop posting as long as you try to dumb down the people with pseudo-science and fallacious arguments. Either start backing up your arguments with objective evidence, or deal with me pointing out what a bunch of nonsense your claims are.

edit on 20-4-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

An interesting quote from Wikipedia:

"The significance ascribed to the wave function varies from interpretation to interpretation, and varies even within an interpretation (such as the Copenhagen Interpretation). If the wave function merely encodes an observer's knowledge of the universe then the wave function collapse corresponds to the receipt of new information. This is somewhat analogous to the situation in classical physics, except that the classical "wave function" does not necessarily obey a wave equation. If the wave function is physically real, in some sense and to some extent, then the collapse of the wave function is also seen as a real process, to the same extent. One of the paradoxes of quantum theory is that wave function seems to be more than just information (otherwise interference effects are hard to explain) but less than real (as the collapse seems to take place faster-than-light, and seems to be triggered by the observer)." LINK

It is interesting that suggests that the collapsing wave function is "more than just information." I have suggested in the past thread that the Higgs Boson particle and wave will suggest streaming data form another dimension. Since we've been off topic, I am hoping someone can answer the questions below with a fresh approach.

Does the abundance of data and information in life suggest a Creator or support evolution?

reply to post by SuperiorEd

In the last thread you called me ignorant and dishonest.

That wasn't an attack, it was stating the obvious. You are clearly ignoring everything that goes against your belief, even if it's backed up by facts (which makes you ignorant)...and you're dishonest because you keep on posting misinformation that's been refuted a dozen times already.

If I call a fat person fat, I'm not attacking him...I'm stating the obvious

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Does the abundance of data and information in life suggest a Creator or support evolution?

Well, given that evolution is a proven theory, and we have no objective evidence supporting the existence of a creator...you do the math

Also, nothing you quoted there would prove the existence of a creator...so all your doing once again is stating your belief

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Does the abundance of data and information in life suggest a Creator or support evolution?

Hmmm. I will try to get this thread back on track. That is an interesting question. Irreducible complexity for a hundred Alex. lol . Just kidding. Its just me I know but it suggests a programmer.

Thanks for the comments on this thread. Let me know if I have proven this to you. If not, just provide the science that refutes my claims. I'll add one more claim below that relates to the first. I look forward to more answers to the first two questions, as well as commentary on this post.

Here is one final proof. If you can't get it from this, I can't help you. Refute it all you want. It's proof and my last word on the subject. I will rely on a few words from previous posts and some new points as well.

Let's travel back to the first verse of the Bible. What we really need is definitive proof of God as the architect of all matter. This is easily achieved. Not proving God as a defined fact, just that he Created. This is fact.

To save space, I will provide links.

As a review of what I first stated, light is where it starts for all matter. God says He provided the Light. Fiat Lux, let there be light. Then in John 1, he claims His Son is the Word (Logos). This is the wave that carries the light. Light is a duality of particle and wave. All particles have an associated wave. Higgs Boson is the last particle and wave yet to be found.

Genesis 1.1 is the schematic of the mathematics of light to geometry. Proof is HERE

If you think this is not proof, then visit Here for the exact mathematics in relation to the first verse of the Bible. All verses of the Bible then can be decoded this same way to reveal the blueprints to reality. Each verse describes the outer layer of the onion, then the reset of the layers are in relation to the mathematics of each verse, as reflected in the links provided.

Here is my take on reality form a standpoint of how it comes about from light.

The imperfection in us is necessary. God is at rest. We are becoming as God is. If there is to be a we, then we can't be God or there is (not are) two perfections at once. That is a perfect image and makes God two. God is one. For Him to Create us, he starts with a point. That's Him, the infinity of possibility at rest. This is just a simple analogy, so hold on. Matter is created from the second point, forming a line. Move that line now and you get a plane. The plane is created one slice at a time as it moves. Now create cube, expanding from all sides of the plane and you have slices again in three dimensions. From these three dimensions, we get form of all types. Now move that form and you get a slice of time. The form moves by possibility, just as the form was created from possibility. Although we are connected to God as the first separate point, our point had to be less than Him to be different. Think of all of this happening at one time by the process of light and wave. Particle and wave duality is what makes up light. Each particle has an associated wave. A galaxy is a toilet that flushes backwards at first, then rolls back on itself creating form by streaming data as it drains back to the source. As above, so below. One side of the universe, through an opening between, then back again. Zero point of infinity in the middle.

Now you get deeper into the process. The particle and wave is streaming data that works from the first dimension out through all the dimensions. As it produces form in the simple process above, we get layers of structure in a fractal. Again, this is simplified as a symbol. If there were second dimensional creatures, they see the second dimensional plane unfold a slice at a comparative time. The third dimension sees the slices of the fourth dimension of movement. Movement is the key. To create form, there must be movement in counter-motion to the first fixed dimension in a vortex. The spin we see display in the golden ratio and in DNA is evidence of the double helix pattern used by the wave to form matter. You only see a slice of everything that exists. There is another half. Google 'tree of life' and then look at the tree and the roots below. It all starts below and then streams up to infinity in forms that come from infinite possibility by collapsing wave function (best analogy we have). All of this arises from the other side where all possibility and infinity is at rest, in all states possible at once. We are merely a reflection of that in parts. We define this as imperfection. On the other side, we are a complete sculpture. Our consciousness merely rides the wave of possibility. It's always now.

But wait, there's more. Entropy heads to decay and disorder. Consciousness, which is directly connected to the original state of infinity at rest, is able to move back against the flow of imperfection to realize this movement back as a journey. The laws that govern the process are set to react when you act, keeping you on a path of movement against death and decay, while the body is used up along the way. This is what we see as punishment. Reward is what we see when we achieve back-flow. Providence is what we call chance. This is the designer from the state of rest acting through the state of imperfect possibility. God, the governor of it all. Love, the state of rest. Hope, the movement back to Love.

Read 1 Corinthians 13. Read Genesis 1 (Light). Read John 1 (Wave). Read the Bible for all it's worth.

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Like mentioned in the other thread (an exact copy of this one, or vice versa), you haven't proven anything. Your "proof" consists of the bible, which isn't objective proof. At no point in this (or the other) thread did you present objective evidence supporting the claim that divine intervention played a role

Of course others have already pointed that out, but you still repeat it like a broken casette player. Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it true. Also, you asking others to present science that refute your claims is beyond laughable given that's exactly what people did in this and the other thread

Did you read it, or are you simply dismissing it without thought like you did in the other thread? Read the links. There is math locked in the Hebrew letters of Genesis 1:1, backed by the mathematics proving it. Read. Refute the math. Bring something to the table besides blind bias.

Others have done precisely what you are doing. Saying simply, "You are wrong." If I am, bring the argument forward. Do the math in the links and provide your review. People can then compare and decide for themselves. Simply saying it is wrong and then standing on that word wrong is a weak platform.

If you have trouble with the dimensions and the idea of collapsing wave function, watch this video.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Like mentioned in the other thread (an exact copy of this one, or vice versa), you haven't proven anything. Your "proof" consists of the bible, which isn't objective proof. At no point in this (or the other) thread did you present objective evidence supporting the claim that divine intervention played a role

Of course others have already pointed that out, but you still repeat it like a broken casette player. Just because you repeat it, doesn't make it true. Also, you asking others to present science that refute your claims is beyond laughable given that's exactly what people did in this and the other thread

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Nothing in that video proves divine intervention or planning

How so? What is the explanation for the obvious dimensionality of the universe and the fact that it is orderly in design and structure? How can the observer create reality himself by collapsing wave function? How does evolution from the material world generate life that can then create reality? Does this suggest, as I have stated, that the material world cannot collapse wave function without consciousness designing it that way? If not, what is your analysis of this last question?

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Nothing in that video proves divine intervention or planning

reply to post by SuperiorEd


First of all, we don't even know for sure how many dimensions there are. Secondly, even if we did, in the absence of evidence supporting divine intervention, you can't just say "how else do you explain that?" and then go on claiming "god did it". That would be called argument from ignorance, and a good example of god of the gaps. Pretty much like the rest of your previous arguments

Just because something can't be refuted doesn't mean it's true.

Human capacity for knowledge and understand is limited, so just because something might be outside the limits of human explanation doesn't mean that it is true or untrue, and by trying to "prove" god's existence through man's limited knowledge leads to an equally (possibly) erroneous conclusion because it is outside comprehension. A square circle.

And this doesn't even address the *concept* of (a supposed) god's (physical or mental) nature, in general, and the equally erroneous description man attributes to "god." While some will argue it's all about the "relationship" with said god, some are more literal and wish to add these attributes--attributes man finds in himself and then thinks must also belong to "god," but that's like trying to describe what a house looks like from the outside when one is stuck inside.

It's like the first cause or the watch argument, which is a fallacious albeit a convenient way to end discussion and reaffirm an opinion because it can't be disproved.

Nothing is proved, it's just one perspective aimed at explaining for personal satisfaction.

*shrug*

I would never place my faith on one item. I need many areas. Like our universe, the truths in the Bible are multi-dimensional. I will leave our discussion here. You have your view and I have been more than clear with my multi-dimensional context. My last words will only be a suggestion. Bias against God or any person blinds. This is true in race relations and true in all corners of life. Truth is only available to those who hold the mirror with clean hands and clear eyes to see.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

First of all, we don't even know for sure how many dimensions there are. Secondly, even if we did, in the absence of evidence supporting divine intervention, you can't just say "how else do you explain that?" and then go on claiming "god did it". That would be called argument from ignorance, and a good example of god of the gaps. Pretty much like the rest of your previous arguments

reply to post by SuperiorEd


Dear SuperiorEd,

I love your questions and will ignore them and talk to your point. I ignore them because I agree there is a God and he proves himself in his creation. Did he not say that we could see him in nature and the stars? The question in the end is what is the nature of sentience and we do not need "alternate" universes for that. A continual flow of understanding rather than alternate understandings is my belief, it may seem like minutia; but, I do not think that it is.

I am enjoying reading your posts, you seem to have done a bit of thinking and I always enjoy new thoughts. I hope we bump into each other on more threads, please be well.

Romans 1 is the chapter you are referring to I think. I think you are right on the continual flow idea. As far as I can see, we are in a sort of initiation, rising by degree to an overall understanding. Much of my view on reality comes from the Bible, but there is a wealth of understanding that comes from a few alternate sources. The most profound are these.

As a Man Thinketh - James Allen
Dhammapada _Buddha
The Discourses of Rumi - Sufi

Do these sources contain complete truth as found in the Bible? No. The truth found in these works triggers deeper insight into the Bible. The Bible is the root and these are only branches. If you have read the Bible, the meaning it contains is unlocked by understanding through perspective. It's a long journey filled with incomplete reasoning. This is where God fills in the missing parts through Gnosis. Ask and you receive. All sentient life will have perspective which is as unique as a snow flake. No two will be the same. Each contains a part of the whole.

Rumi

A woman lost something. She looks left and
right, in front and behind. Once she has found
that thing she no longer searches above and
below, left and right, in front or behind. All at
once she becomes calm and collected. Similarly,
on the resurrection day all people will be of one
eye, tongue, ear and understanding.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Dear SuperiorEd,

I love your questions and will ignore them and talk to your point. I ignore them because I agree there is a God and he proves himself in his creation. Did he not say that we could see him in nature and the stars? The question in the end is what is the nature of sentience and we do not need "alternate" universes for that. A continual flow of understanding rather than alternate understandings is my belief, it may seem like minutia; but, I do not think that it is.

I am enjoying reading your posts, you seem to have done a bit of thinking and I always enjoy new thoughts. I hope we bump into each other on more threads, please be well.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Bias against God or any person blinds. This is true in race relations and true in all corners of life. Truth is only available to those who hold the mirror with clean hands and clear eyes to see.

Then how about you present your truth (which obviously needs to be objective)...because until now, all you did in this and the other thread was preach, or post a bit of science and then link it to god without ever proving that link

Also, I think it's hilarious how you claim the bible is the truth, and scriptures from other religions are sort of 2nd class...of course you never provide any proof of why this is, and the followers of the other religions do the same when talking about the bible, but in the end, none of you believers manages to present any real proof

reply to post by AQuestion


Hey look, it's circular reasoning! The good ol' creationist and theist tactic of using a point to prove itself! Your deity says nature proves it exists because it created it...therefore it exists and created nature.

Lovely job coming up with your own argument that makes no logical sense whatsoever.

This thread has nothing to do with me. You need to answer the two questions. I have answered to my own satisfaction. Now you need to prove me wrong. Two questions must be answered. Evidence should point one way or another. Convince me.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

Bias against God or any person blinds. This is true in race relations and true in all corners of life. Truth is only available to those who hold the mirror with clean hands and clear eyes to see.

Then how about you present your truth (which obviously needs to be objective)...because until now, all you did in this and the other thread was preach, or post a bit of science and then link it to god without ever proving that link

Also, I think it's hilarious how you claim the bible is the truth, and scriptures from other religions are sort of 2nd class...of course you never provide any proof of why this is, and the followers of the other religions do the same when talking about the bible, but in the end, none of you believers manages to present any real proof

edit on 2-5-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)

Simply saying something is wrong does not make it so. Show me the evidence. Produce answers to the two questions. Your answers should be able to negate my points.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by AQuestion

 

Hey look, it's circular reasoning! The good ol' creationist and theist tactic of using a point to prove itself! Your deity says nature proves it exists because it created it...therefore it exists and created nature.

Lovely job coming up with your own argument that makes no logical sense whatsoever.