On the logic in the ATS "Manifesto" (about page)

Some thoughts on ATS' "manifesto" (about page):

The motto: "Deny ignorance"

Semantic meanings of 'deny' according to dictionary.com:
1. To declare untrue; contradict.
2. To refuse to believe; reject.
3. To refuse to recognize or acknowledge; disavow.

and of 'ignorance':
The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

ATS either
a) Declares the condition of being uneducated, unaware or uninformed untrue. This condition does not exist.
b) Refuses to believe in the condition of being uneducated, unaware or uninformed. ATS reject the possibility of the condition of ignorance (oops, circle-definition).
c) Refuses to recognize or acknowledge the condition of being uneducated, unaware or uninformed.

All this boils down to Ignore ignorance, more or less, which is as sensible as turning a blind eye to the blind.

Stating that this would be included in a list of most powerful paradigms is practically overstating the matter and far from an appropriate way of going about this great example of flawed logic.

Using strawman: another motto with a similar lack of meaning: "Deny rocks".

Here's the real bogger tho:
"Who can you trust? No one! So what can you do? It's simple. If you can't trust anybody, perhaps you can trust everybody!"

The latter part (after "perhaps..") does not cohere in spirit with the short (and bragging) "It's simple." as it safeguards the possibility of the sentence not being true.

Now..
You can not trust anyone. Semantically this includes yourself as well.
Terms of interest being used here is

No one - No person; nobody.
Anybody - Any person; anyone.
Everybody - Every person; everyone.

[explanations from dictionary.com]


Let's look at the text again but replace the terms used with dictionary.com's semantic versions:
[Who can you trust? No person! (..) If you can't trust any person, perhaps you can trust every person!]

'You' being the target of this line, and most probably a person as well, this sentence is utter useless.
'You' cannot trust self, other, which should make it likely that you can trust every person?

I've had my piece. Peace out

Well done, Chomsky. I got everything up to the point of "strawman".

I thought and posted similarly when the motto "Deny Ignorance" was launched. Thanks for a deeper semantic analysis of something that does appear a little nondescript.

Deny Satan.

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Well done, Chomsky. I got everything up to the point of "strawman".

And yet, I found the savant nature of denying the Wizard of Oz character lacking a brain quite appropriate considering the analytical subject.

Well, thanks for pointing out that we are all denying the fact that some people are uneducated.

What's your point, that we refuse to accept that some are uneducated?

I would tend to believe, regardless of your well pointed semantics, they we refuse to allow ourselves to be ignorant. I think the actual point is to educate yourself, learn the finer points of the many topics available here, and to not allow yourself to wallow in stupidity.

Nice post.

Would you prefer "Refuse Ignorance" ?

I often wonder if some on this forum would prefer "Deny, Deny, Deny"

EDIT: Smiley format

[edit on 27/7/04 by Ouroboros]

Imho the Deny Ignorance motto is ment to be read as Denying Ignorance to be the master of the world by educating them as much as we can.

ATS thrives to Deny "Ignorance" as an entity, to consume the minds of the people, by trying to educate them.

Another thing the motto tries to say is that we should deny people to use ignorance as an excuse for all sorts of things. People declaring themself ignorant of a situation or a fact happens all the time and is abused by politics, criminals and everyone else.

[edit on 27-7-2004 by thematrix]

Moved to a better location (how in the heck did it get in *Introductions*???)

Call me ignorant but uneducated I think not, people that have knowledge or become knowledgeable is not uneducated but I still like the plain Deny Ignorance.

Can't "deny" also mean simply to "refuse" or "do not allow"
eg. to deny access to someone or to deny someone their rights?

In that case it can be read in various ways, of of which subliminally amplify it's meaning.


1. Refuse to accept ingorance.
2. Do not allow ignorance.
3. Claim that you are not ingnorant.

(1) is the reason we are all here rather than watching television right now.
(2) is what we aim to acheive.
(3) forces us to ask ourselves that most difficult of questions, "Am I ignorant?"

Powerful stuff

[edit : great post BTW!]


[edit on 27-7-2004 by muppet]

bold
\Bold\ (b[=o]ld), a. [OE. bald, bold, AS. bald, beald; akin to Icel. ballr, OHG. bald, MHG. balt, D. boud, Goth. bal[thorn]ei boldness, It. baldo. In Ger. there remains only bald, adv. soon. Cf. Bawd, n.]

3. in a bad sense, too forward; taking undue liberties; over assuming or confident; lacking proper modesty or restraint; rude; impudent.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, � 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.


How bold it is to join a community such as this, and immediately attempt to attract attention through an introductory post that criticizes a statement that through its simplicity, should be self evident.
"refusing the state of being uninformed"
Simplicity is an art. Minimalism is beauty.

I've not been here long, and perhaps do not agree with all that I see. But I would not be so rude as to create such a post as a form of "hello".

It also appears to be fashionable in some circles in this community to jump in and cry "me too" in these cases. I suppose it's all to often easier to criticize rather than conceive of material contribution.

I'm curious FUBAR, do you criticize the decor of a stranger's living room?

dp

dp, can I call you dp, Dramatic Pause?

From what I took of the post, I do not believe he was criticising anything. Maybe I'm wrong, I guess we'll see.

And even so, I don't think there's anything wrong with some constructive criticism every now and again... From anyone, be they the newest to grace these fine forums to the oldest hat.

I wanna play I wanna play!

FUBAR...why did you LEAVE OUT the definitions that any 12 year old could pick as the most appropriate:

deny:

1 : to declare untrue
2 : to disclaim connection with or responsibility for : DISAVOW [emphasis by Webster ]
3 a : to give a negative answer to b : to refuse to grant c : to restrain (oneself) from gratification of desires
4 archaic : DECLINE [emphasis by Webster ]
5 : to refuse to accept the existence, truth, or validity of

ignorance:

: the state or fact of being ignorant:

1 a : destitute of knowledge or education ; also : lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified b : resulting from or showing lack of knowledge or intelligence
2 : UNAWARE, UNINFORMED [emphasis by Webster ]

Well, it was easy enough for me FUBAR [emphasis by Valhall ]

we DISAVOW the state of being UNAWARE and UNINFORMED!

Maybe you should stick with Spot, Dick and Jane!

[edit on 7-27-2004 by Valhall]

How about the simple meaning of "rejecting the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed".

Under that definition, Deny Drama might be better, or in the case of one longterm malcontent...Deny Ego.

I wanted to highlite the CHOSEN definition (yes, Fubar and Masked Avatar, it is utterly appropriate to select ONE of several possible definitions when you are creating a motto or, in this case, a mission statement) but I was beaten out by Valhall... I'll share anyway...

Our chosen definition of the myriad attached to "Deny" is...

wait for it...

Disavow you see, gents, us having a clue, we decided that "Deny Ignorance" sounds a lot BETTER than "Disavow Ignorance" it simply rolls off your tongue better...

I surely enjoy these opportunities to display the reason this site has attracted some of the most BRILLIANT, LOGICAL, Members on the internet...

Thanks!

m...


[edit on 7-27-2004 by Springer]

I liked the post. Instead of slithering around the site like a voyeur they kicked open the door and walked in carrying their balls out in front with both hands.

I liked it.

and don't sweat the old crusties here...the "Deny Ignorace" statement logic is flawed, but you've got a better chance of having the CIA admit to 911 then getting any self-reflection here.

Don't let it bother you. If you can separate the "founding fathers wanted a christian nation" crap from "Russia was a communist state" ignorance, you'll find some writers that are really on the ball and have posted some gems.


and to the rest of you, Yes...they really wanted a christian nation and yes russia was a perfect example of cummunism and why it failed. Go back to sleep.....go back to sleep............sleep..............bah......bah........

grass is good.....eating grass is good.....bah....bah......


There is no friend anywhere - Lao Tse

A simple question... If you disagree with so MUCH here why do you persist in posting/participating on this site?


Becasue it's GREAT that's why... Ever wonder WHY it's GREAT? Look up.

m...

In reply to Valhall I need to say that I only used dictionary.com's list (as mentioned in the post) which obviously wasn't sufficient. Good reply, Val (May I call you Val?).

Yes, I am an idiot and yes I have an ego the size of a planet (see: Jupiter).

You all win, I am the ignorant. I am inferior to you. You are all my masters. I thought I could hide my ignorance by playing intelligent, but it is apparent to me now that you are all fine intellectuals.
You won, I lost, you're smart, I'm stupid.

As for taking so long to reply, I didn't expect anyone to read this post, so I forgot the password
I was idleing around when I came upon cryptozoology stuff related to AboveTopSecret, read the "about page" and shortened my day @ work by writing the post at the top of this page.
Stopping by I found 15 replies and thought it my responsibility to clear up what I had messed up.

Boredom is dangerous.

From now on I'll deny ignorance as soon I can find any, starting with myself.
I'll simply deny it.

[edit on 30-7-2004 by FUBAR]

From Merriam-Webster Online:

Main Entry: ob�fus�cate
Pronunciation: '�b-f&-"skAt; �b-'f&s-"kAt, &b-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -cat�ed; -cat�ing
Etymology: Late Latin obfuscatus, past participle of obfuscare, from Latin ob- in the way + fuscus dark brown -- more at OB-, DUSK
1 a : DARKEN b : to make obscure
2 : CONFUSE

Words have different meanings, and certainly the word "deny" can be interpreted in many different ways depending on context and connotation.

For my part, I rather like the ambiguity of the "Deny Ignorance" slogan. It gives me a cute hook for my counter-slogan:

ADMIT IGNORANCE. Then do something about it.

But still a fun topic. Hours of fun for the whole family!

Well, my avatar says it all, glad you guys stuck with a simple name or I wouldn't have been able to stick it on there lol.

Originally posted by FUBAR
You all win, I am the ignorant. I am inferior to you. You are all my masters. I thought I could hide my ignorance by playing intelligent, but it is apparent to me now that you are all fine intellectuals.
You won, I lost, you're smart, I'm stupid.

Very nice "I'm taking my ball and going home" response. It's a simple motto/slogan and has a simple definition. How about Nike's "Just Do It" slogan?

just1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jst)
adj.
Honorable and fair in one's dealings and actions: a just ruler. See Synonyms at fair1.
Consistent with what is morally right; righteous: a just cause.
Properly due or merited: just deserts.
Law. Valid within the law; lawful: just claims.
Suitable or proper in nature; fitting: a just touch of solemnity.
Based on fact or sound reason; well-founded: a just appraisal.

adv. (jst, jst; jst when stressed)
Precisely; exactly: just enough salt.
Only a moment ago: He just arrived.
By a narrow margin; barely: just missed being hit; just caught the bus before it pulled away.
At a little distance: just down the road.
Merely; only: just a scratch.
Simply; certainly: It's just beautiful!
Perhaps; possibly: I just may go.

Are you going to play the semantics game with something like that too, or would you simply agree that you understand their simple message? Then again, I'm sure the drama your trying to create is much more fun and helps you fight the boredom. You could try BTS if your bored...I don't EVEN want to tell you what the motto/slogan is over there.