"Oh, you're reading with your mind, not you're heart"

I just wanted wanted to bring this up.

Well, I'm the black sheep in my family(I'm 17, still a minor), because I'm not a Jehovahs Witness like them. I'm considered a rebel, untrustworthy, and given less lenience because of this, even though I have a nearly clean track record besides this.

Well, often being preached at mostly from articles from the watchtower corporation, I'm frequently able to provide scientific fact or testimonial contradicting their claims.

So many times I've heard, "quit trying to analyze things, listen with your heart." Or other similar things. Which brings me to my point. What turned me against the bible in the first place, is that it didn't 'feel' true to me. My heart tells me I'm reading a story. I get the same feeling from the bible, as I get from, say, the Epic of Gilgamesh, or all the Norse Mythos stories that I find myself interesting in.

Shouldn't I feel inspired? If this book was a gateway to god, why doesn't it feel real? I can understand it feeling real to people who were brought to believe it, or really want to believe it, our psyche decides how we interpret everything.

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If looking at it from a scientific standpoint, I can't say I find the bible factual, that leaves me to look from my heart?

If looking from my heart, I can't find the bible believable, what's next?

If I looked from the perspective of what I want to believe, I'd believe. Who doesn't want to life forever, happy, on a paradise earth? Also, I've heard from this family many times, "Why would people want to believe they'll come back as a worm", regarding reincarnation. Also "Why would you want to believe you're going to die, and that's it? That'd feel meaningless". "Why would you want to think we came from dumb monkeys". I must assume that they're believing out of a want to believe.

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While I personally relate this to Jehovahs Witnesses, I look at other christian belief systems as well. None 'feel' real to me, and critical thinking leaves thinking their nonfactual as well.

I'm going to ask this question, and ask it truthfully; What am I suppose to do? How am I suppose to look at this and feel that enlightenment? I'm willing to believe, but my mind and heart say no. What should I look at it with?

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


"seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened". if you haven't found logical answers in the bible or from other Christians then maybe you are looking in the wrong place. I suggest asking God the creator Himself.

Also I suggest reading "Secrets of a Supernatural World". Great book which explains why there is so much confusion with creationism ideas and evolution. And offers a scientific explanation for much of Genesis and the bible.

What I'd say is, take what you've learned from the bible and consider it more information on life. Then I'd say continue researching other faiths and see how they apply to your perspective. I'd imagine faith really should be about your special place in the universe and the quest for understanding a greater idea such as god.Don't get stuck in the structure of religion but have faith. As you progress in learning you may have a much larger and more complete picture.

reply to post by freedish


God(If he's there) knows that I'm willing to believe if he gives me sign of his presence. Or if he could put it into my heart to believe. I don't know how to ask god for help any further than being mindful of that. It's actually more discouraging to me that he's never bothered bumping me in the right direction.

Besides my Jehovas Witness upbringing(Which seems to of been a really poor representation of Christianity as a whole) I read a lot of information online. It's always biased either for or against the bible, so I try to encompass as much as I can from both sides of the spectrum. That's one thing I love about discussion forums like this, one side of an argument is countered with another, I can see all the perspectives at the same time. I'll see if I can get ahold of that book, but I doubt it has a lot more revealing than things I've already seen.

I used to get all those comments from my family, when as a teen I questioned "why" such and such from the preacher's sermon. Don't question god! It will be revealed. If god wanted you to know he'd blah blah blah. I can't stand the "What if your wrong?" argument that is meant to scare one into belief.

Look, tell your folks that god is asking you questions that you are unable to answer and you want to seek out his voice according to the direction you are being led. Go to college and study the sciences that you are drawn to. I know many scientist who "Found God" in biology or cosmotology.

Remind your family of the "Protacle Son" who came back and was welcomed and loved. Tell them that they have done their job and instilled a respect for god but now you need to find him yourself. Tell them to have faith in their own god that he will not abandon you for seeking the "truth" out in the world.

It's a big world out there and there's many people with like minds for you to connect with. Have a fun life, god would want it that way.

Im no Bible thumper ..but I can tell you one thing .. dont Read it like a book... Each and every word has meaning ( and do you even read ancient text ? or are these Bibs that you read have 4x transcribers to them ? ) .

You will Know when you interpret the words..not the works...but the words..

Sadartha ..

JG.

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
reply to post by freedish

 

God(If he's there) knows that I'm willing to believe if he gives me sign of his presence. Or if he could put it into my heart to believe. I don't know how to ask god for help any further than being mindful of that. It's actually more discouraging to me that he's never bothered bumping me in the right direction.

Besides my Jehovas Witness upbringing(Which seems to of been a really poor representation of Christianity as a whole) I read a lot of information online. It's always biased either for or against the bible, so I try to encompass as much as I can from both sides of the spectrum. That's one thing I love about discussion forums like this, one side of an argument is countered with another, I can see all the perspectives at the same time. I'll see if I can get ahold of that book, but I doubt it has a lot more revealing than things I've already seen.

God is silent most of the time but He has a good reason. He dwelt amongst the Jews with Moses, literally guiding them by pillars of clouds. The cloud would move and the people followed. He even tried to have a meeting with His people at Sinai. The people begged God not to reveal Himself because they thought that they were going to die.

And remember how often the Jews rebelled against God. The closest to humans He ever got (aside from Adam) and they spat in His face. God wants us to follow Him, but He has been hurt by us humans repeatedly. If only we knew how much God weeps for every child that rebels and spits in His face. IF we only knew.

But, I would urge you to keep praying- keep asking for Him to reveal Himself and He will. He did for me, and that is why I am here now telling you about Him. Btw that book explains so much of Genesis in a scientific manner. It really is a great read for any person, theist or not.

Religion forum.

two lines

Originally posted by freedish
reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx

 

"seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened". if you haven't found logical answers in the bible or from other Christians then maybe you are looking in the wrong place. I suggest asking God the creator Himself.

Cool great post
i agree , seek and you shall find, and there is no need for keys, as the door was never locked in the first place...

and if you do decide to ask him yourself just be clear on what you want to know, because once you know it theres no forgetting it.
you cant undo taking the red pill.
peace.
oh by the way, i don't recommend taking the red and blue pills at the same time... it makes for one really wacky ride

God is all around us, if you lay at night and meditate, clear your mind and ask for the answers to your questions then the shadows will clear and things will change around you, dont say i wish this or that would happen. it wont.. be clear of your own path and god will show you signs to help you follow your choice.. he wont choose for you.
peace.

Originally posted by jaduguru
Im no Bible thumper ..but I can tell you one thing .. dont Read it like a book... Each and every word has meaning ( and do you even read ancient text ? or are these Bibs that you read have 4x transcribers to them ? ) .

You will Know when you interpret the words..not the works...but the words..

Sadartha ..

JG.

Now this is advice. But how do I read it different? It''s of the same style as all the other old stories.

I can read 2 Kings 2:23-24, and see "God killed children for doing typical children behavior, kinda a jerk move", or I can see "Gods prophets deserve respect, and disrespecting them amounts to disrespecting god", or just "God is a facist". Whether I look at story or meaning to these things, it still strikes me as fiction. Especially since you could come to so many different meanings to the stories, I can't see how one of the possible conclusions would feel inspiring, knowing there's so many more.

Edit: I also forgot to mention, I'm fairly sure if I ever gnosticly believe anything, it most likely won't be Christianity. This topic is because, with something as important as religion, I'm not gonna dismiss anything without looking at it as thoroughly as possible.

You are, I think, starting to see why there are over 34000 different denominations within Christianity alone. Either all are right and it does not matter which way you go, or 33999 of them are wrong and one is right.

Here's how I see things, and maybe it will help (bear in mind I was raised in a strict Christian upbringing and was even on my way to becoming a preacher, myself, before I felt the hand of "God" pressing me to ask questions)

At the center of all things is what we would refer to as God... The Creator... Nirvana... The Universe... whatever you want to call it is absolutely up to you and none are wrong.

We are all on a wheel surrounding this center point. It's the "hub" of the wheel, if you will.

Connecting this wheel to the hub are many "spokes" and each of those spokes represents a different path you can take to find the center. All are included, from Christianity, Hinduism even atheism We can choose to start walking down one of these spokes, and are welcome to change to another one any time we want, depending on our circumstances and needs.

None of these is the "right" way and none are the "wrong" way. ALL of them lead to the center point. Just like some people prefer walking down a big, cleared path through the woods, and others prefer to trudge into it blazing a brand new trail, so it is with the different spokes of the wheel.

Right now, I see you on the pathway of changing to a different pathway All of us as humans go through it. It's been referred to many times as the "dark night of the soul." And, just like each night has an end into the daylight of illumination, so will your night end, as well.

Basically, what all of this means is, you are completely free to choose your own path and your own way through life. To do otherwise, or to allow yourself to be subjected to the wills of other people, would negate the fact that you are a human being with the free will to choose for yourself.

It does not matter the path you choose, because, in the end, we are all going to the same place... a place we have all been before, and will go to again.


Hope all this helps some.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


Don't let them brainwash you! The highest level of a human being is the capability of abstract thinking, not the "heart".(There are many animals that have strong emotions...)
If you want to find your "higher self", just train your mind...
Read some books (the basics) on
1.Ecology
2.Ethology
3.Psychology
4.Cultural anthropology
5.(if you need some paranormal) P J Carroll: Liber Null
After this stuff you will see that religion is just politics.

reply to post by Jomina


Perfect
We are all walking paths to the same place, sometimes the paths cross sometimes they dont, sometimes the paths join into a well trodden road, other times we must carve our own path though the jungle life is a test, to travel the well trodden path is easy, to forge your own way though the night is a task befit any great man or woman.
there is no beginning or end, there always was and always will be
you cant get lost when you already know the way for there isnt any right or wrong, there just is..
i also believe that no one will get left behind, theres too many people who wont let that happen to any soul

reply to post by Jomina


Personally, if going with a religious belief not completely founded in understandable facts, I wouldn't go for one that teaches that any belief will take me to the same place. I could spend my "faith" card on another one and play it safe, since being wrong won't damage me with that one.

Though that disagrees with my detest with how the concept of hell has been/still is used as a "what if" scare tactic to rush people into quick decisions of believing. Not attacking the concept of hell in the bible(Looking at the cruelty of god in the old testimate, easy to believe in hell), but even people who believe hell should be able to see how it's been used to appeal to reasoning. Topic is about ranting about hell though, just saying that I'm not gonna believe that out of fear I could go there from not believing.

I don't seem to have a faith card though. Rendering that all irrelevant.

Thanks for trying though.
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Alas, probably not a good idea to make this topic so soon before I was planning on going to bed. I'll check this in the morning and after school, see what else their is to hear on this topic.

reply to post by Androctonus


I assure you I'm not brainwashed, nor do I intend to become as such.

An important aspect to critical thinking involves listening to what every side has to say, I'm giving the side I'm leaning away from more chance by hearing what some followers believe to say.

Rest assured, I'm not intending to trade logic for a 'think with your heart' mentality. Just considering the possibility the heart can show something that would actually work with the logic.

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Ok, now I will leave the topic for night.

Goodnight everyone.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx

I felt the same way when i was 17.
I'm 57 now, and I still feel the same way.
The whole religion thing just puzzles me. The more I read on it (mostly Christianity, being in the US), the more I wonder how anybody in this day and age believes it.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


Friend, I know the local Christian crew will jump right over here and try to convert you into their little cult, but you have seen the truth. The bible is made up of many stories and myths from all over, and in many different times and places. It is written like a grade school kid is trying to describe ET beings coming down and interacting with their creations, humankind. Religion, the book variety, is for the weak of mind and Spirit, those who need above all things something bigger than they are. Let me provide you with a few links, to prove what I am sating to you.

Sumer Religion was Handed Down by Extraterrestrials

10 Christ-like Figures Who Pre-Date Jesus

Exposing Christianity

New Living Translation EXPOSED!

God's Mistakes

Bible Absurdities

Bible Atrocities

A List of Biblical Contradictions

The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors

Christians are hypocrites

Myths surrounding Jesus' birth

Gods and Religions on Planet Earth

How to wire your brain for religious ecstasy

What the Devil? Prince of Darkness Is Misunderstood, Says UCLA Professor

WHO WROTE THE NEW TESTAMENT?

Spacecraft and Extraterrestrials in the Bible and History

Originally posted by xxsomexpersonxx
*Snip*

Uh, personally I advise you to not listen to other people. Believing in a religion is something that you decide on your own... I believe you put it best when you said, these people believe in something because they "Want" to, is fairly accurate.

I personally don't believe things I want to believe. I believe things that are proven real, and that is it. When it comes to what isn't actually provable, you fall into the theory catagory, not even the thesis counterpart. You can believe your theory or thesis to be true, and have it be proven that it's not. If this is something you want to believe in, you will find ways of making the proof look like it's not proof. This however doesn't make it so.

The same can be said in another way.

Say, reincarnation was proven true, and we did come back as worms. Even if I didn't WANT to be a worm, it doesn't change the fact that we are. I.E. What you believe is real and what IS real are two different things. Being able to discern the difference between something that is factually real versus a theory is very important in concluding ones potential intelligence.

Like I advised you in opening, don't just do something because someone told you to... but rather do it because you understand what you are making a decision about.

With that said, don't just take what I am about to say with anything other than a grain of salt, but you sir -- sound like you are firmly agnostic.

If you don't believe what you read, and you don't feel that it's true in your heart, nothing you can do will ever change that. I don't believe it's a matter of perspective. So IMO, stop looking for a reason to rationalize a belief in JW, you won't find one and you will likely ostracize yourself more in the process.

I think the best thing you can do is wait a few years and then try to have a civilized discussion with your family that airs out how you feel like they ostracize you on a non-confrontational front, and discuss it rationally.

If they are incapable of doing that, then you have to just deal with it. You can't change a persons mind if they don't allow you to and that is the only real truth.

reply to post by xxsomexpersonxx


You are on a beautiful journey, and I say stay on your path.

I grew up with the same thoughts as I being indoctrinated into Christianity, but my critical thinking side of my brain won the fight



Keep it up!

My suggestion, take it for whatever you like -- keeping thinking for yourself stay strong and when you turn 18, get the hell out of dodge.