Debunked! The FBI alien bodies memo – A case study in the reinvention of the wheel

Originally posted by TheTrueBeliever
i love this thread, its so revealing, k thanks

You should probably get in trouble for posting that in the middle of the OP's thread.....It seems somewhat obvious you were trying to get your 20 post tomake a thread.

You truely showed your ignorance in doing what you did

reply to post by IsaacKoi

So, basically it's your standard messed up nonsense that abounds within ufology.

Sigh.

Sigh indeed. However, thanks to people like you at least there's some hope. Excellent work and thank you for taking the time to put all this info together and share it with the rest of us.

I have one question though: considering this case was based on nothing but elaborate storytelling and hearsay, and that the subsequent investigation had already been conducted by the Air Force two months prior, is it not a little odd that such a yarn still managed to find its way onto the desk of J Edgar Hoover himself?

I mean - I have no doubt that this case was a hoax, and as such could be filed under the "ash can covers, toilet seats and whatnot” tag. It's also my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong here) that the FBI wanted very little to do with UFO cases for this very reason. So why does this one make it all the way upstairs? Maybe it was already part of some Silas Newton fraud investigation? But the memo itself doesn't hint at that, and would that be something that needs to be reported to the director anyway?


I'm just wondering if there's maybe still a baby somewhere in all this bathwater?

i.e. could it imply:

a) Someone was worried enough that although the story had all the earmarks of a "fish was big" kind of tale, it might have been rooted in some truth somewhere.

b) This is evidence of Hoover's alleged suspicions that other compartments in the Military/Government were witholding information on UFOs, and that he himself mandated any potential "leads" to be passed along his way on this front.


I'm just wildly speculating here of course, but something about this memo still leaves me with a feeling that it's less "nothing to see here, move along" and more "things that make you go hmmm"...

reply to post by mc_squared


I have one question though: considering this case was based on nothing but elaborate storytelling and hearsay, and that the subsequent investigation had already been conducted by the Air Force two months prior, is it not a little odd that such a yarn still managed to find its way onto the desk of J Edgar Hoover himself?

If you read about J. Edgar, you'll find that he was certainly unique in his outlook and actions. He found some fecal matter on his balcony and had it analyzed by the bureau. He also had letters sent to M.L. King asking him to commit suicide after a long, derogatory diatribe berating King for his existence. This type of behavior is well documented. I also suppose Hoover was just as fascinated with flying saucers as were most of the population at the time. (poop was raccoon).

Originally posted by mc_squared
I have one question though: considering this case was based on nothing but elaborate storytelling and hearsay, and that the subsequent investigation had already been conducted by the Air Force two months prior, is it not a little odd that such a yarn still managed to find its way onto the desk of J Edgar Hoover himself?

I mean - I have no doubt that this case was a hoax, and as such could be filed under the "ash can covers, toilet seats and whatnot” tag. It's also my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong here) that the FBI wanted very little to do with UFO cases for this very reason. So why does this one make it all the way upstairs? Maybe it was already part of some Silas Newton fraud investigation? But the memo itself doesn't hint at that, and would that be something that needs to be reported to the director anyway?

Hi mc_squared,

That's a valid question.

The short answer is: I don't know.

I don't think it was because of any connection to a fraud investigation into Silas Newton or his friends, since none of them are mentioned.

However, it seems that Hottel didn't know what to make of the claim so simply kicked it upstairs. Remember, he didn't know it was a hoax (or at least he didn't indicate in his memo that he knew it was a hoax).

Someone on another forum claims to know Hottel's son - it would be great to find out if his son was told anything about all this...

All the best,

Isaac

reply to post by IsaacKoi


That's true - I suppose it might have been as simple as him not knowing what to do with it, so check with the boss.

It just seems so ho-hum to me, it's weird:

No further evaluation was attempted by SA … concerning the above

I know if someone from the Air Force told me this tale I'd be on it like stink to a monkey, but who am I to know what was going on in Guy Hottel's head. That would be awesome if we got some insight from his son though - I'm sure he's probably dealing with a few emails & phonecalls the way this story has suddenly blown up.

Anyway, these are the sort of UFO cases I love to explore. I think if anyone's ever going to truly crack the mystery it's going to be by revealing some sort of cover up. That takes a lot of hard work and attention to detail. I wish the tinfoil crowd would figure that out instead of wasting everyone's time posting lazy youtube videos.

Although the end result of this thread might be a bummer, it's still a fantastic example of how to properly investigate the subject and shed some much needed credibility on it as well.

Great work as always - so thanks again, cheers!

I'm just wondering if there's maybe still a baby somewhere in all this bathwater?

I still think there is a baby in the bathwater when it comes to MJ-12 and the related docs. While some of the documents can be shown to be fakes, others are not so conclusive. In addition, they come from different sources, so just one being a fake doesn't automatically invalidate the others.

Even with all the different sources, they paint a pretty cohesive story of what happened and when. (assuming it's true). It certainly includes the people you'd expect to be involved in such a thing, and a natural evolution from an exploratory committee to a full fledged entity for keeping the secret.

I'm still torn myself on whether or not to believe the overall story of the documents, but it is an intriguing story.

reply to post by Gazrok


The problem with any documents, witnesses, etc that actually do come too close to the truth is that the best way to cover them up is not to have them silenced or erased (since that will only increase suspicion), but instead make them lose as much credibility as possible.


Uncovered document contains sensitive info? - Associate it with known hoaxes and forgeries.

Witness/Whistle Blower hitting too close to home? - Make them look like just another UFO whackjob.


This whole subject is obfuscated in so much nonsense that it of course just plays right into the hands of anyone who would want to hide it, even in plain sight really.

That's why it's important to search diligently even through the bathwater, because sometimes the red herrings can at least offer clues about who put them there, and what their motivation might have been in doing that.

I agree with you about MJ-12 - even though the docs might be a hoax, there's a level of coherence that when you step back and look at from a distance still feels like it sort of makes sense. That intuitive feeling is something I find tough to let go in a subject where so much of it simply doesn't add up at all.

Originally posted by game over man
If Aliens don't visit us or Inter-dimensional Beings or humans from the future, or whatever, then why even have UFO's on the site. Where are the Santa Clause topics? Or Easter Bunny memos on FBI.GOV?

The FBI has previously said that they put the most commonly requested files online.

I know that Freedom Of Information Act requests for UFO material have been very popular - they account for a significant percentage of the requests received each year by the US Air Force and the British Ministry of Defence.

I think this is probably the answer to your question about why they have UFOs on their site, but not Santa Clause topics. (Also, we know that there were UFO documents produced by the FBI. I'm not sure how many documents the FBI has on Santa Clause...).

All the best,

Isaac

Originally posted by Gazrok
I still think there is a baby in the bathwater when it comes to MJ-12 and the related docs.

In the past 30 minutes, I've drafted and redrafted some comments on MJ-12 and how knowledge of some signficant relevant issues could be advanced by one or two people that ATS has links/contact with. In the end I've deleted all those comments for now. That's for another day/month/year...

These are pretty murky waters and the number of unanswered (and apparently unasked) questions is pretty large!

The issues regarding the Guy Hottel memo are relatively narrow - the issues regarding, say, MJ-12 and/or the Aviary quickly branch out in numerous directions (although, after a while, matters do seem to group back together).

How can anyone possible claim that a type written letter, ON, an official looking letterhead, with correct spelling and puncuation, could possibljy be a hoax, is the same likelyhood that this is a misspelled and run on sentence, how dare you.

After all we have all heard from the hundreds of Americans who had contact with such an event and their vivid recollaction of the events.The President of the United States can not control a 19 year old interns testimony.

Really are you guys that ignorant. We are alone. Walk outside, piss on an ant hill. Walk back inside. Do you feel different, NO. If we were visited by superior beings we would have been pissed on a LONG time ago...

That was one of the most objectively written and completely enthralling posts I've ever come across on ATS. Bravo for the citations, lest anyone call BS. Personally, as far as intelligent life visiting earth goes, I am open to the possibility. However, as P.T. Barnum masterfully put it (allegedly, but refuted by the man himeself), there truly is a sucker born every minute. It just goes to show how the "snowball" effect can continue a score and 5 years after the fact. S&F for sure!

Waay to much text about something I don't much care about, but I tried to "scan" the text carefully. So did I get this right, someone made up a story that was proven to be a hoax. Now this Guy Hottel memo has a story that is very similar to this hoax, so you are saying this a hoax too? I didn't read the whole Hottel memo, but did it mention this Silas dude? I think most names were erased from it. Someone can make up a hoax that could coincidentally be turned out to have some truth to it. I just fail to see the connection.

But yes, it is very obvious that this isn't "just released".

Originally posted by dailycosmic
Know this time Aliens have deactivated British and US nuclear missiles, say US military pilots
says the telepgraph dailycosmicnews.blogspot.com...

This has to be one of the most annoying posts i read under these circumstances, this whole thread is about how difficult it is to separate what is real to what is fake and you have the disrepect to post what some guy has siad from the Telegraph on a website called Daily Cosmic News...

Yes, that one's bunk. There's still plenty of evidence of Roswell, though.

Originally posted by IsaacKoi

Originally posted by game over man
I agree with the OP, but why is Guy Hottel's memo on the FBI's website. Why is it singled out, and not clumped in with all the 100's of pages of UFO reports in the UFO section?

I don't know, but perhaps (and I'm just speculating here) it's because of the number of requests for that particular document. The content of the FBI's Freedom Of Information Act webpages has, as with several other government bodies, always tended to include the most frequently requested documents. Basically, it cuts down costs and effort when you reply to the nth request Freedom Of Information Act request for disclosure of documents relating to UFOs when the FBI can simply reply "see our website".

All the best,

Isaac

Thanks Isaac,

So you're basically saying this memo has caused a lot of problems of people believing in UFO's so the FBI put it up so people can easily have access to it, and debunk it?

My problem is not everyone is a UFO debunker person. It just seems like the FBI is stirring the pot.

Now, they are going to have to deal with people asking about the memo.

Because what has been mentioned, the Hottel Memo is a well known hoax in ufology, serious ufology. Which is a circle of how many ufologist?

Now the FBI makes this hoax-memo easier to access? For the "simpleton"?

WHY??

The way it stands out on the site, the memo seems REAL. Why don't they call it the Guy Hottel Memo Hoax? If it has already been proven in court? And was released in the 1970's?

If you look at this from a perspective of the whole "Vault" marketing ploy, it just seems rather unusual, it raises red flags with me.

Basically the FBI just made a bunch of topics on UFO websites? Right?

Originally posted by IsaacKoi

Originally posted by game over man
If Aliens don't visit us or Inter-dimensional Beings or humans from the future, or whatever, then why even have UFO's on the site. Where are the Santa Clause topics? Or Easter Bunny memos on FBI.GOV?

The FBI has previously said that they put the most commonly requested files online.

I know that Freedom Of Information Act requests for UFO material have been very popular - they account for a significant percentage of the requests received each year by the US Air Force and the British Ministry of Defence.

I think this is probably the answer to your question about why they have UFOs on their site, but not Santa Clause topics. (Also, we know that there were UFO documents produced by the FBI. I'm not sure how many documents the FBI has on Santa Clause...).

All the best,

Isaac

Hello again Isaac,

So the FBI wants to cause problems for NASA by releasing UFO/Alien memos proven to be hoaxes, when NASA is still trying to discover life outside of Earth? Now we have an increase of people challenging NASA? Thanks to the FBI's Vault.

How many years ago did the FBI stop investigating UFO's? Is this some type of nostalgic love affair the FBI has with itself?

Good work on stating the case for this overused memo.

Not all coverage, however, was naively enthusiastic.

4/10/11 Phoenix UFO Examiner Article

A 60 year old routine FBI Memo that has been available to the public for over three decades which some say is at the end of a chain of custody of the truth that began with a lecture by a con-man who would later be convicted of fraud is suddenly the latest news in UFO 'disclosure'.

A week after the FBI website released a revamped document access system a wave of Facebook postings has propogated an inaccurate concept: That the FBI has released proof of an alien spacecraft crash near Roswell, New Mexico in 1947—and that this constitutes disclosure of UFO reality.

-- snip --

But thanks to a British Tabloid and Michael Cohen the meme that the FBI has posted proof of aliens at Roswell has become the falsehood du jour, following in the footsteps of the recent Jerusalem 'Dome of the Rock' video fabrications, the British Jets chase UFO down the M5 YouTube video fabrication and an endless stream of predecessors.

Uncritical acceptance of tabloid journalism and viral propagation of inaccuracies have made the sensible investigation of UFO claims harder than ever.

Even as the noise to signal ratio increases almost exponentially, truly phenomenal events are being recorded and reported almost daily. It's up to each individual to practice open-minded discernment.

The fact the the FBI investigates UFO cases proves they take it seriously and it is not a bunch of loons.Some cases are real.