Hamas' Powerful New Weapon Alters Strategic Calculations Along the Gaza Strip

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

If that was the case then I doubt the Hamas spokesperson would go on record caliming credit by Hamas for the attack on a school bus. The argument would be put back on the Israelis.

Nice try though.

edit on 12-4-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

No because the truth is while you are likely biased towards the Israelis there are a lot more Gazans who grieve dead relatives from Israeli violence than Israelis grieving dead relatives from Hamas violence.

So it's a powerful recruitment tool.

Hamas does recruit people for it's armed cells, and one of the reasons people join those kinds of things is to make a 'difference' just like people often do when they join our own armed forces.

The people of Gaza herded into an open air prison under an illegal Israeli blockade who have been victims of Israeli land thefts and murder for generations don't see themselves as 'terrorists' they see themselves as the victims, much like we did when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.

If you have followed the situation in Gaza for decades like I have, during the first Infidada back in the mid 80's the Israeli soldiers would routinely shoot children dead in Gaza as young as five years old at point blank range for throwing rocks at tanks.

Children, Schools, Homes entire villages are often targets of the Israelis so believe me the Gazans are very used to seeing their own children killed, and while it's sad I think you could perhaps appreciate why some of them might take some small measure of satisfaction some Israeli children were hurt for once.

Morally I agree it's reprehensible, but then again, no one has ever bombed my child's schools with illegal white phosphorous munitions while accusing them of being human shields and it wasn't the attackers fault but mine.

You won't understand because of your bias why some of us won't be able to jump up on the "The Muslims are at it again bandwagon" but the situation is a bit more complex and a bit longer running than you might want to consider.

I would assume the IDF knows the difference between a rocket and a missile, as well.

IDF says the rocket attack “crossed all red lines;” these lines were crossed years ago, which is why we are today fighting for our legitimacy and survival.

Jerusalem Post

Yes, the rocket attack crossed all red lines, however the killing of seventeen civilians this past weekend is par for the course.

In the weekend exchange, Israel killed at least 20 Palestinians, including civilians and at least a few Hamas leaders.

Hamas says the missile attack was making good on a promise to retaliate against Israel for killing three of its leaders in a targeted assassination earlier this month.
While the attack only wounded two people -- the bus had just dropped its students off --
militants fired more than 100 rockets and mortars into southern Israeli.
The Israeli Air Force raised the normal reciprocity multiplier a couple of times in what was called a clear message to Hamas that attacks with this new type of weapon would carry an overwhelming price tag.

Fox News

Quite a few news outlets calling the attacks "rocket" attacks, as well as the IDF.
Here is the rocket:



Capabilities: The manufacturer claims penetration of 1,200mm of steel armor or 4.5 meters of concrete.
1200 mm equals 4 ft. of steel armor
4.5 meters equals over 14.5 ft. of concrete.

And here is the school bus:



Not really trying to be an apologist for anyone, but this doesn't add up, imo.

was fired from the Gaza Strip toward Nahal Oz, near Sa'ad in the Sdot region of southern Israel, damaging a school bus

from the above link.

doesn't sound like it was aimed at the wedding ..
ooops I mean bus

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Actually my bias is for the people of Gaza and Israel to retake their governments and throw the useless morons out who think a body count with no end is better than sitting down and talking it out.

This incident specifically though, firing a missile at a school bus in retaliation for Israel killing 3 members of hamas is just sad on the part of Hamas. Why go after valid military targets... I guess better for Hamas to be a bunch of cowards and go after unarmed children to continue the tit for tat game.

But thansk for showing your bias towards Israel.. Its always nice to see why people make an argument. Even more important the argument you present actually justifies Hamas targeting of children.

SAd.

They got some pretty nice school busses in Israel. Looks like a tour bus. The busses in the US look prehistoric compared to that.

reply to post by Oaktree


Thats been my question for some time.. What type of missile was used? Has anyone been able to confirm the type?

reply to post by ADVISOR


If you think that's crossing the line, wait and see on Israel's response to the bus attack.

I bet you that one of these days, Israel will nuke Gaza.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by Oaktree

 

Thats been my question for some time.. What type of missile was used? Has anyone been able to confirm the type?

From Israeli sources the one Oaktree lists is what they say was used..

It really doesn't add up..Nowhere near enough damage..

I'd still like proof that Hamas DELIBERATELY targeted a school bus...

reply to post by backinblack


Sure.. right after you give proof that Israeli delibrately targeted a Hospital to simply kill innocent civilians.

and if we are going to use okatrees source, then Hamas delibrately targeted the bus in retaliation for the attack on its 3 members, which is in the article.

The article itself says soviet anti tank missile, but does not state what kind it was. The simple fact it says soviet and not russian tells me the missile was old, which could explain the damage.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Actually my bias is for the people of Gaza and Israel to retake their governments and throw the useless morons out who think a body count with no end is better than sitting down and talking it out.

This incident specifically though, firing a missile at a school bus in retaliation for Israel killing 3 members of hamas is just sad on the part of Hamas. Why go after valid military targets... I guess better for Hamas to be a bunch of cowards and go after unarmed children to continue the tit for tat game.

But thansk for showing your bias towards Israel.. Its always nice to see why people make an argument. Even more important the argument you present actually justifies Hamas targeting of children.

SAd.

It's not actually known either if they did target the bus diliberately or if it was just a 'lucky' hit, providing you want to assume it was Hamas. That which goes up must come down somewhere. The New Years Eve before last a 5 year old boy at a midnight church service was killed by a bullet fired into the air by a reveler that of all places landed through the church roof miles away and struck and killed the boy.

Munitions experts have made a fairly compelling case that it likely was not the kind of weapon Israel is claiming it is because of the amount of damage actually done. So there is some additional reason to be suspect if Hamas fired the weapon at all, if it was the type of weapon the Israelis are claiming and if the bus was deliberately targeted if it was Hamas.

Now you might ask why would Hamas antagonize Israel and view that as the sole roadblock to peace, the the Blockade of Gaza the indefinate detention of Palestinians by Israel, and the expansion of illegal Jewish Settlements plays no part in Hamas's agression.

However if you go back to the Vietnam War in order to get Noth Vietnam to the Peace Conference in Paris, Nixon undertook Operation Linebacker the bombing of Hanoi to give them the incentive.

So keeping up hostilities sometimes is the only way to make peace seem attractive to someone who doesn't want to seriously negotiate it.

Considering Israel has routinely smashed Palestinian Infrastructure every time the Palestinian State gets close to up and running, and is still agressively building illegal settlements, anyone who imagines the Israelis really want peace is really just imagining.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by backinblack

 

Sure.. right after you give proof that Israeli delibrately targeted a Hospital to simply kill innocent civilians.

Don't recall ever saying that so what's your point?
You did however state Hamas deliberately targeted the school bus..

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by Skippy1138
I'm sorry but I don't care what squabble you have over who owns what piece of land- targeting a school bus full of CHILDREN? Really??
Sub-human animals.....

Totally agree..
Same with targeting a school with phosphorous..
Sub human animals...

I am sorry.. Not Hospital.. school.. Source for this please

reply to post by Xcathdra

The article itself says soviet anti tank missile, but does not state what kind it was. The simple fact it says soviet and not russian tells me the missile was old, which could explain the damage.

Lets make this perfectly clear..

It was only the Israelis that were quoted as saying it was a laser guided tank missile..
Hamas did NOT say that...

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by backinblack

 

Sure.. right after you give proof that Israeli delibrately targeted a Hospital to simply kill innocent civilians.

Don't recall ever saying that so what's your point?
You did however state Hamas deliberately targeted the school bus..

And I porovided you with the aljazeera source that you dont read. I see we are back to this game now.. Playing semantics, refusing to read articles, ignoring information provided because it does not support your argument. You do this in most threads on this topic, and ignore facts with the skill of Ozzyism.

most impressive.

reply to post by Xcathdra

I am sorry.. Not Hospital.. school.. Source for this please

Don't play games..
It's common knowledge that even Israel finally admitted to..

BTW, they also targeted a school in Egypt during the 67 attack..
Seems not that unusual for Israel..

Originally posted by ADVISOR
That's crossing the line, they and who ever gave them those munitions can be expecting some serious retaliation.

Not cool, overkill and now it is going to get ugly. Expect it to get hot over there this summer, maybe even spring with that kind of escalation of force.

Ask the Palestinians if it's already been ugly.

Israel needs enemies and I wouldn't be surprised if they supplied these weapons. Without enemies, Israeli's xenophobic population would turn on themselves.

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by backinblack

 

Sure.. right after you give proof that Israeli delibrately targeted a Hospital to simply kill innocent civilians.

Don't recall ever saying that so what's your point?
You did however state Hamas deliberately targeted the school bus..

And I porovided you with the aljazeera source that you dont read. I see we are back to this game now.. Playing semantics, refusing to read articles, ignoring information provided because it does not support your argument. You do this in most threads on this topic, and ignore facts with the skill of Ozzyism.
most impressive.

lol, you're funny when wrong..
From YOUR source..

The al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Hamas movement, said it had shot two missiles early in the day, one of which had hit the school bus. The Brigades said the attack came in reponse to Israel's killing of three of its members last week.

Now please tell me where they state the bus was targeted..
Also remember Hamas has NOT said they used guided missiles..

You can twist it all you like, the proof is simply NOT there.

reply to post by backinblack


Which said a school bus was hit by a missile. If you want to play semantics we can, but in the end, a missile slammed into a school bus.

Lets put it this way.. Randomly launching rockets and missiles is just as bad as targeting a bus full of civilians. One is criminaly negligent, and the other is just plain criminal.

But please.. by all means continue making excuses for the attack by obfuscating around the incident, bringing up incidents that have nothing to do with the attack on the bus..

So now we move from rocket to missile, and now missile to laser guided -

The al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Hamas movement, said it had shot two missiles early in the day, one of which had hit the school bus. The Brigades said the attack came in reponse to Israel's killing of three of its members last week.

If you need help reading and comprehending the quote, feel free to ask.. Hamas spokesman says it had shot two MISSILES in the day, one of which hit the school bus.





By all means.. Humor us..

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by ADVISOR

 

If you think that's crossing the line, wait and see on Israel's response to the bus attack.

I bet you that one of these days, Israel will nuke Gaza.

Research the Samson Option to find out who Israel's nukes are for. Being a small nation surrounded by enemies, nuking one's neighbors might not be a great idea. Nukes aren't best when used at close quarters. Israel's nukes are for Europe, America, Russia and China....if they're threatened, they'll burn the world.

What a lovely bunch of people. Who wouldn't love to live next door to them.

carolmoore.net...

reply to post by Xcathdra

Lets put it this way.. Randomly launchiung rockets and missiles is just as bad as targeting a bus full of civilians. One is criminaly negligent, and the other is just plain criminal.

Maybe but from your same source..

Israel responded with a series of air strikes, the first of which saw an Apache helicopter target Ash Shuja'iyeh, a suburb of east Gaza. A 50-year-old man was killed and at least six people, including a four-year-old girl, were injured, said Palestinian medics.

A 4 year old girl???

Face facts, Israel is WAY in front with the body count including children..
The can not use that BS card...