Hamas' Powerful New Weapon Alters Strategic Calculations Along the Gaza Strip

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

YOur inability to admit when you are wrong is reinforced by your refusal to acknowledge the post. It lists all of your circular arguments and contreadictions to date.,

Sorry if the truth hurts... Ignoring it doesnt make it untrue.

Mate my argument isn't circular..
It has been the same from page 1..
You spamming the same posts and links over and over does not change that..
You are getting boring and repetitive..

Me spamming the same posts, I will accept. MY posts have been consistent and have contained sources and citations.

Yours on the other hand are empty with nothing to back it up.
Seriously, open your mind for 10 minutes and take a look at where you have been in the last 20 pages..

www.abovetopsecret.com...

and again, to keep this on topic, the exceuses trying to dimiss Hamas involvement, or even worse trying to limit the impact by suggesting no one was killed or seriously injured speaks volumes and contradicts the comments about not condoning attacks on civilians or children.

Whether it was by missile, rocket, mortar, rocks etc, the event occured, it deliberately targeted a school bus, and a child was injured because of it.

NO amount of justification exists, try as you might, to attack a school bus.

reply to post by nenothtu

Panels? Aren't you the one who contested the pictures that were presented of the interior because "the rear window appeared intact", and it wasn't in the bus you saw previously? Here's an experiment to try: Go to an external wall of your house, and try to kick the wall out. Hurts, don't it? Now try to kick the window out instead.

It even works as a merely Einsteinian Thought Experiment.

A bomb is no smarter than we are, and it will damage what is easiest to damage first as well. If that damage allows for sufficient energy release, then it stops right there.

Come on, look at the pics and the bus design..
The engine compartment is below floor level which is set quite high to allow luggage storage underneath like in many tour buses..
The blast came from the engine bay obviously..
There are no floor panels blown up except that one little inspection door..
Are you saying enough blast came through that one little hole to blow out nearly every window in the bus?
But then when you look just below that panel there are smallish white tubing's etc that show no signs of damage..

reply to post by nenothtu

See, there's the problem. They CAN'T make peace and continue to exist, considering the stated goals of those arrayed against them. They can "make peace" and try to work with al Fatah, and Hamas gets all butt hurt and stirs the pot. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if they made peace some how with Hamas, then al Fatah would be the ones doing the stirring. It looks to me for all the world like pack of wolves harrying a buffalo. This one nips, that one distracts, and on it goes.

These factions are the least of Israel's worries.

One of the problems for many living in and divided in our statist world is they really don't understand that this war is a continuation of a war that's been going on for a couple thousands of years.

Because the people aren't aware of how it all fits together as a well planned action by a group of people who are not in government but control governments, it's hard for them to see the big picture or understand the real strategy.

Rome in fact has Israel scheduled to be lit up like a Christmas Tree in the final push before the implementation of the One World Government.

It's basically a box designed to draw in forces and ellements slated for elimination.

Israels only real chance at survival is to make peace and kick out the ZIonists aligned with Rome and the International Shadow Government and the Oligarchs.

Fail to do that and it's a nation of nothing but dead people walking.

Mark my words, and we will see it in our life time barring any unfortunate accidents to either of us, you will see Israel completely destroyed, and Judiasm, Christianity and Islam smashed in the process and outlawed in the New World Order.

Divide and conquer at it's finest these events are being manipulated to make these factions fight to the death.

While each imagines it has a chance to come out on top, in fact none of them do, and their only chance is getting beyond the propaganda and the enflamed emotions to create a street level peace, that will basically require Soldiers on all sides refusing to follow orders.

What does a parent do where three children are all fighting over the same toy?

You let none of them have it.

Israels in way more trouble than it thinks, we all are.

reply to post by Xcathdra

Me spamming the same posts, I will accept. MY posts have been consistent and have contained sources and citations.

I have seen and read them..Once is enough and hence the boring tag..

Yours on the other hand are empty with nothing to back it up.
Seriously, open your mind for 10 minutes and take a look at where you have been in the last 20 pages..

As I said..It appears ALL your sources for this incident stem from ONE original source which is not unusual..
But the sources you quote have conflicting statements..
They call anti tank missile while their captions state mortar..
I am not making that up..YOU cited the sources.

and again, to keep this on topic, the exceuses trying to dimiss Hamas involvement, or even worse trying to limit the impact by suggesting no one was killed or seriously injured speaks volumes and contradicts the comments about not condoning attacks on civilians or children.

No, it shows the attention this incident is receiving is disproportionate to the actual circumstances..
Evident by the fact that since this incident Israel has injured a FOUR YEAR OLD GIRL and yet that hasn't raised an eyebrow from your team.

Whether it was by missile, rocket, mortar, rocks etc, the event occured, it deliberately targeted a school bus, and a child was injured because of it.

Stupid comment..
Anything bar a "laser guided,russian built anti tank missile" could NOT TARGET anything..

NO amount of justification exists, try as you might, to attack a school bus.

No, if it was targeted which is still not confirmed, then I wholeheartedly agree..

reply to post by backinblack


and the assasination attempt against Adolph Hitler should have by all accounts killed him. The bomb was powerful enough and was placed directly next to hitler.

The only that saved him?

The oak table leg.

Like bullets, rockets, missiles, guided missiles, cruise missiles and even nuclear bombs CAN fail, either completely, or partially.

Originally posted by munkey66

I don't know much about school buses, what I do know is subliminal messages and how they are used to play on peoples emotions.

Each 1 of those pictures shows a small childs stuffed toy,

...... (quote removed for brevity) .....

again I don't know much about Isreali school children, but is it common for a 16 year old boy to have 3 stuffed toys?
or where they the drivers toys?
I will leave it up the the fine people of ATS explain this one to me

It COULD be a propaganda ploy. That can't be dismissed out of hand. (better get them checks rolling, boys. I'm on the edge here...)

As a personal observation, though, my ex used to drive a school bus before she died. Being the sort of woman she was, she had all sorts of "decorations" around her seat, and I note that those stuffed toys were also near the driver's seat. Some were hers, and some were given to her by the kids she drove, but they were all hers, not the kids'.

Also, speaking of "odd" decorations in public conveyances, am I the only one here to have ever ridden in a Middle Eastern or Central American taxi or bus?

reply to post by Xcathdra

and the assasination attempt against Adolph Hitler should have by all accounts killed him. The bomb was powerful enough and was placed directly next to hitler.

Mate, there's more than a few conspiracy theories regarding Hitler's fate..
Let's stick on topic and with the facts.

Since the school bus attack, I have seen Zionist supporters argue that yes Palestinians do deliberately target civilians, and they give example of the school bus which was supposedly hit by an anti-Tank missile.

Anti-Tank missiles are guided, usually laser guided. It didn't stop Zionists in the past from accusing Palestinians of deliberately targeting civilians, even though with rockets and mortars, you can't choose targets. This time they have evidence, or do they?

As Israel's foreign ministry of affairs reports, "An anti-tank missile fired at a clearly marked yellow school bus driving near the Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council wounded two people. One of the wounded, a 16-year old school-boy, is in critical condition." (Source)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c1d9b03f2b71.jpg[/atsimg]

Firstly I'm not quiet sure whether Israeli buses are armored or not, but it is relevant to find out, so I did a research and find that some school buses are armored in Israel, but only against small arms and IEDs. (Picture Below)

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2a8ebf38bfd2.jpg[/atsimg]

"An armoured bus or armored bus is a type of bus which provides increased protection for passengers, usually against small arms and improvised explosive devices."

(Source)

Whether this bus was armored or not is still a mystery, but I find one source which claims the bus which was bombed wasn't armored, but the source isn't specific, it doesn't say which bombing it was. I checked the date and concluded that it must have been the current one since no other school bus bombings have occurred in current time frame (?).

The date of the news is "04.07.11", and time, "16:08".

"Yoav Peled, the security officer of Sha'ar Hanegev Regional Council, told Channel 10 TV that the school bus that was bombed earlier was not armored."

(Source) (?)

So it kinda establishes that the bus wasn't armored, that is relevant because we are talking about an anti-Tank missile.

An anti-Tank missile is capable of destroying a "heavily-armored military vehicles" (Source. As you can see the damage in the back of the bus, considering that it wasn't armored (?), an anti-Tank missile would do way more damage. The image of the bus shows that the weapons hasn't even pierced through the back of the bus completely, only one layer has been destroyed.

This is conclusive to me that this was not an anti-Tank missile, below is a video of an anti-Tank missile and the damage it can do.


If I have missed any information which might change my conclusion, please don't hesitate to post it. I'm thinking hard what else I could have missed, that might have led the Israeli authorities to a different conclusion than mine. Please do post it if I have missed something.

To add, let't not forget the black stain in the back of the bus, that simply shows the weapons has exploded, it looks something like the stain on the road from a home made rocket, in the picture below.

Originally posted by backinblack

NO amount of justification exists, try as you might, to attack a school bus.

No, if it was targeted which is still not confirmed, then I wholeheartedly agree..

and this sums it up quite nicely on your thought process. You ignore anything that doesnt support your claims or argument, while at the exact same time using sources youhave dismissed as propoganda and use the picture captions which are not part of the main article.

As I said.. when it suits you, your ok with it, and when it doesnt, you just make up a reason to ignore it.

typical..

Since I am so wrong according to you, please provide us all with your sources then (which you have now ignored for about 5 pages). Without showing any sources, I am going to conue making the argument you are jsut making things up.

Hamas claimed responsibility
Hamas said it was a guided anti tank missile
Hamas said the bus was intentionally targeted

3 Arab sources that tell you, you are wrong. By all means, discredit the sources and cite your information.

The military wing of Hamas on Thursday claimed responsibility for firing an anti-tank missile at an Israeli school bus, the Al-Qassam Brigades said in a statement.

"Al-Qassam Brigades claims responsibility for targeting the bus of the occupation," the statement said, adding that it was in response to Israel killing three of the group's leaders last week.


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Focus.Net

Gaza City. The military wing of Hamas on Thursday claimed responsibility for firing an anti-tank missile at an Israeli school bus, the Al-Qassam Brigades said in a statement, AFP reported.
"Al-Qassam Brigades claims responsibility for targeting the bus of the occupation," the statement said, adding that it was in response to Israel killing three of the group's leaders last week.

Aljazeera

Hamas takes responsibility

The al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Hamas movement, said it had shot two missiles early in the day, one of which had hit the school bus. The Brigades said the attack came in reponse to Israel's killing of three of its members last week.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Be honest,
If you came across that bus on the side of the road what would your initial thoughts be as to what caused that kind of damage?

An RPG-7 or the equivalent (M72A2, RPG-18, etc.). Probably too high up on the impact for a roadside IED, and the undercarriage seems to be mostly intact, so it wasn't any sort of road mine. Problem is, RPGs and the like have to be fired from within 500 meters or so, and the closer the more accurate. An RPG at 500 meters against a moving bus at road speed wouldn't likely fare very well unless it had a hell of a gunner.

That would go a long way in explaining the rear hit vs a broadside one, though. Target moves slower laterally.

In all those cases, though (the wire or laser guided AT missiles included), there is a shaped charge warhead. The main difference is in guidance and throw weight.

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

and the assasination attempt against Adolph Hitler should have by all accounts killed him. The bomb was powerful enough and was placed directly next to hitler.

Mate, there's more than a few conspiracy theories regarding Hitler's fate..
Let's stick on topic and with the facts.

As usualy you ignore the facts, and go for something completely different. If you actually took time to watch, you would see a bomb was placed in a small building designed to kill Hitler and everyone else in the room. The bomb used could easily kill all the occupants on the bus being talked about.

Because of the placement of the bomb, and the lcoation of the oak wood leg, hitler survived.

Just because its a laser guided anti tank missile that was used, does not mean it didnt fail to explode, partially exploded (and since they use Soveit era, that lends support that their might be operational issues with the missile).

Just saying, if you are going to make arguments about damage and the impossibility of damage, then I will provide information that says you are wrong in your thought process.

But hey.. Thanks for once again proving my point that you refuse to acknowledge any information / facts when it doesnt support your argument. Your ability to manipulate information is done with the skill of Mossad.

reply to post by Xcathdra


NVM

reply to post by P3ACE0WAR

I'm thinking hard what else I could have missed, that might have led the Israeli authorities to a different conclusion than mine.

Simple, your conclusion would NOT allow Israel to garner support for an increase of aggressive actions including a possible "Cast Iron" like attack..

reply to post by Xcathdra

But hey.. Thanks for once again proving my point that you refuse to acknowledge any information / facts when it doesnt support your argument. Your ability to manipulate information is done with the skill of Mossad.

Honestly you are full of it..
I could learn a great deal about twisting facts by just studying your posts..

FACT: YOU posted links that contradicted themselves....
Can you twist a denial into that simple fact??

Just some news updates:

Iran is manufacturing special missiles for Hamas that can be smuggled through tunnels into the Gaza Strip, according to the report of a conversation between Israel Defense Forces Deputy Chief of Staff Dan Harel and U.S. ambassador to Israel James Cunningham.

Haaretz Wikileaks exclusive / IDF: Iran providing Hamas with smuggle-ready rockets

"We are planting trees that will grow and provide cover," he continued. "A person firing an anti-tank missile needs a line of sight to the target. If he doesn’t have one, he has a serious problem." It will take time, however, until the trees grow tall enough to obscure the line of sight from Gaza into Israeli communities near the border.

IDF adapts to anti-tank missile threat from Gaza

reply to post by backinblack


I don't think anyone can deny the B.S being played out here, therefore they try to post sources claiming the resistance statement says they intentionally targeted the bus with anti-Tank missile.

Here's a question, does anyone have the original statement in Arabic, and not the one liner quotes, which could potentially be distorted, or twisted to support the Zionist propaganda.

I would like a confirmation.

Originally posted by P3ACE0WAR
I'm thinking hard what else I could have missed, that might have led the Israeli authorities to a different conclusion than mine.

A valid question if I ever heard one...

Lets take a look....

To date, have we been able to determine, for sure, what type of guided missile was used?
Have we been able to determine where the missile came from? Just because its sovet era / soviet made, doesnt mean it came from the old Soviet Union.

What other factors are present from the limited phots we have seen, that tells a different story?

My question is, if Hamas did not launch a missile at the bus, then why did their spokesperson make the claim and why would they do that knowing what the response ould be from ISrael?

I will concede to you that there are questions that need to be answered, but the one thing that comes to my mind is the quote from Sir arthur conan doyle -

Eliminate the impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth.

A missile slamming into a school bus, and failing to detonate, could be one cause. If thats the case, anbd the pictures could lend support to that theory, would then allow the possibility of Israeli authorities being able to confirm what weapon was used by recovery of the failed device.

It could also account for the engine exploding, causing minimal damage, that others think was caused by the missile itself.

Whats your thoughtS?

reply to post by nenothtu

An RPG at 500 meters against a moving bus at road speed wouldn't likely fare very well unless it had a hell of a gunner.

True but also depends on your line of sight..
If the bus is traveling straight it's not that hard a target..

A laser guided missile is not that easy either..
Even the manufacturer only claims an accuracy of 5 meters and you can bet that's in experienced hands and against a stationary target..

Tough call huh?
Hence I have my doubts..
But there is NO doubting that the Anti Tank weapon theory suits Israel's agenda far better than a random shell..

reply to post by backinblack


If we are going to stick with the facts:

There were two panels, not one, that were lifted upwards.



If you look here you can see most of the weapons energy was expended in the engine compartment.



There still could have been enough pressure to blow the panels out and then blow out the glass.

reply to post by P3ACE0WAR


Palestinian Times

أكد أبو عبيدة الناطق باسم كتائب القسام الجناح العسكري لحماس أن العدو الصهيوني يتحمل مسؤولية التصعيد في غزة والذي أسفر عن استشهاد ما يزيد عن خمسين فلسطيني وإصابة العشرات خلال الأسابيع القليلة الماضية ، مضيفا أن المقاومة تستهدف مواقعاً عسكرية لا كما يزعم الاحتلال أنها مدنية.



ونفى أبو عبيدة في مؤتمر صحفي عقده عصر السبت في غزة مزاعم الاحتلال بأن الحافلة التي استهدفتها كتائب القسام قرب ما يسمى كفار سعد شرق غزة أنها مدنية مؤكدا أنها حافلة تتنقل بين مواقع عسكرية وتمر على طريق عسكري يشكل حزاما أمنيا لتحرك الدبابات التي تطلق القذائف بحق شعبنا.





وشدد الناطق باسم القسام أن إصرار العدو على المضي في عدوانه الهمجي لن "يثنينا عن الرد بالطريقة المناسبة ، مشيرا إلى أنه لا يمكن الحديث عن تهدئة بينما الاحتلال يرتكب المجازر بحق أبناء شعبنا.





وختم أبو عبيدة بتجديد العهد على المضي "جهادنا وثورتنا ضد الاحتلال ومعنا كل الثوار والأحرار في العالم حتى تحرير فلسطين".