Hamas' Powerful New Weapon Alters Strategic Calculations Along the Gaza Strip

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by SeventhSeal

 

Ahem, time to come back to reality. Ok? Cool.
This whole "Israel is so bad and evil" argument has been exhausted and worn out. Both sides are wrong when it comes to extremism. BOTH sides.

Hamas along with other Palestinians are guilty of human atrocities.
So are Israel military forces who harm civilians in Palestine.

That's the way it is. Thanks.

No it's not..
The way it is is that Israel continues to oppress and illegally invade and settle on Palestinian land..
That makes Israel the aggressor and justifies action from Palestinians..
THAT'S the way it is.Thanks...

I'm not sure what planet you've been living on but the extremists in Palestine are guilty of human rights atrocities including the slaughter of civilians. No suicide bombing in a market full of civilians is justified.

I'd re-think my statements if I were you.

Sick sick sick...and moronic.

Originally posted by mayabong
How dare they have real weapons to actually fight back, this is a travesty! Only Pringles cans to shoot morter rounds are allowed. Actually second thought Pringles are probably banned in Gaza because they contain food. lol

I find it sad you are saying this and even worse your post got starred that much. I am all but pro-Israel (check my posting history), but it is utterly pathetic to pretend HAMAS is less evil than the Israeli government. For heavens sake, we are talking about an attack on a school bus, an attack on innocent children.

This forum is about denying ignore, not about being immature and pathetic.

Originally posted by nightbringr
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Then you remember wrong.

Here is a refresher:

blogs.reuters.com...

It is very obviously not a military issue knife, and as you can plainly see, the commando is badly injured and bleeding.

Shameful coverup from a shameful news source.

The Commando with the pink thong? Yeah I remeber just fine, lengthy thread on it here, no Rothschild News Service required.

We tracked down the brand of the knife and in the picture they are clearly helping the guy up off the floor. They are holding the knife by the handle in a way similiar to a police detective would pick up a piece of evidence.

The guy got himself beat up a bit, serves him right for boarding a ship full of peaceful people in the dead of the night to bully them.

Have you not heard there is nothing more horrible than a God of Peace when he goes to War.

Aide ships, aide workers, bullies in uniform getting their just rewards, who had to resort to shooting people on a mission of mercy.

Post all the nonsense you want, it was all picked apart when it went down, right here on ATS.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Its not third party inuendo when the Hamas spokesperson goes on record to not only claim credit for the attack, but also confirm it was a guided missile, as well as the intentional targeting of a school bus.

I still find it funny as hell that you guys will go to ANY lenghts to discredit an attack that came from Hamas, because your vanity cant handle reality in this case.

If you go back and look at the arguments since page one, you see the progression -

* It was not a missile
* It was not a guided missile
* It was not a laser guided missile
* It was not intentional
* They did not intentionally target the school bus
* Its a Mossad operation
* Its hamas, but they take orders from MOssad
* No Western media sources are valid because they are all run by jews
* No Arab sources are valid because they are western puppets
* Western sources that use mortar under the pitcure are valid, but the rest of their story is a fraud
* Hamas spokesperson is not valid because its rumor an inuendo
* Soros is behind the whole thing

Seriously, as much as you guys tell me to wake up, you should see yourselves. Arguing the minutia about whether or not it was a guided missile or mortar, while ignoring the fact it was a school bus that was hit says a lot about your mindsets.

Its like the Hamas legislature who went on tv talking about the incident, accusing Israel of using the attack on the schol bus to counter attack. He actually argued that the bus was not that badly damaged, and only 2 people were injured, so its not that big of a deal.

Really?



Whats even funnier is the hypocrisy from the UN when it comes to warcrimes. The intentional targeting of a school bus, a civilian target, IS a war crime. So if you guys are going to rush down the road of accusing ISrael of war crimes every time they respond, then you need to hold Hamas / Hezbollah to the exact same standard.

I wont hold my breath on you guys doing that though....

We are now 15+ pages into this, and all the pro hamas people have made your arguments, yet have completely FAILEd to provide any sources, coroborating information, interviews, etc to support your claims. You have been unable to provide counter arguments that are supported by fact to the sources I cited.

Even when it comes directly from Hamas mouthpiece, you are so blinded that you dimiss it, yet you fail to give any valid reason for that dismissal? Are you guys so naieve to assume that Hamas is an innocent player in this mess? I have said before in other threads, Israel is not an angel either, but your attempts to claim the moral high ground by trying to blame Israel for Hamas actions is laughable, and continues to expose the fact that you uys are unable to view this topic with any type of objectivity. And before you accuse me of the same, my record speaks for itself in other threads when it comes to this mess, and I have taken Israel to task on more than once occasion for their actions / inability to follow through.

You guys are attempting to obfuscate this incident by folding it in with every other incident that has occured in Israel / Gaza strip. It does not and cannot work that way, and any attempt to do so does nothing but reinforces the view that you guys are perfectly ok with Hamas targetting and killing children. Even that claim is supported by your arguments in this thread, where instead of dealing with this one issue, people have gone back and invokved time when Israeli attacks have killed Palestinian children.

So Hamas is allowed to kill Children, thats ok?

Its a war crime to intentionally target civilians - and not only Israel, but Hamas should be brought up on those charges in the UN.


Lets recap..

To date, your, along with several others, argue Hamas is not responsible for this, yet fail to provide any type of proof, sources etc to support your claim.

I have provided the following -
CBC News

The violence escalated a week ago when an Israeli airstrike killed three Hamas militants who Israel said were planning a cross-border kidnapping. On Thursday, Hamas militants fired a guided anti-tank missile at an Israeli school bus, wounding the two people on board, including a teenage boy who was critically hurt.

Aljazeera

Hamas takes responsibility

The al-Qassam Brigades, the armed wing of the Hamas movement, said it had shot two missiles early in the day, one of which had hit the school bus. The Brigades said the attack came in reponse to Israel's killing of three of its members last week.

Lebanon Daily Star

Political analysts in Gaza said Hamas wanted to bolster its claim to leadership of the divided Palestinian national movement and divert attention from popular demands – fueled by the “Arab Spring” – for an end to the split with its Fatah rivals.

That spurt of violence subsided but fighting flared again Thursday when Hamas gunmen fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli school bus, wounding two. Israel retaliated with planes and armor, killing five Palestinians.

Turkeys Daily News - English edition

Palestinian officials reported tank fire toward Gaza shortly after the missile attack. The Israeli fire killed a 50-year-old man and wounded seven people, said Palestinian health official Adham Abu Salmiya.

Times of India

NAHAL: Hamas militants fired an anti-tank missile at an Israeli school bus on Thursday, critically injuring a teenager, prompting the army to pound the the Gaza Strip, killing four and wounding more than 30.

After the missile slammed into the bus, the Palestinians lobbed at least 45 mortar rounds and several rockets into southern Israel, hitting a house, and the army responded by staging multiple raids across the enclave.

.........................

The bus attack was claimed by the military wing of Hamas and was the first time an anti-tank missile from Gaza had hit a civilian target in Israel, prompting Israel to vow a harsh response.

........................

Hamas's Ezzedine Al-Qassam Brigades, claimed responsibility, saying it was an "initial response" to Israel killing three of the group's leaders on Saturday, when an air strike hit their car in southern Gaza.

Focus.net

Gaza City. The military wing of Hamas on Thursday claimed responsibility for firing an anti-tank missile at an Israeli school bus, the Al-Qassam Brigades said in a statement, AFP reported.
"Al-Qassam Brigades claims responsibility for targeting the bus of the occupation," the statement said, adding that it was in response to Israel killing three of the group's leaders last week.

NowLebanon News

The military wing of Hamas on Thursday claimed responsibility for firing an anti-tank missile at an Israeli school bus, the Al-Qassam Brigades said in a statement.

"Al-Qassam Brigades claims responsibility for targeting the bus of the occupation," the statement said, adding that it was in response to Israel killing three of the group's leaders last week.

Palestinian Times
Here Hamas now claims the School Bus was a valid military target because it belonged to ISrael.

أكد أبو عبيدة الناطق باسم كتائب القسام الجناح العسكري لحماس أن العدو الصهيوني يتحمل مسؤولية التصعيد في غزة والذي أسفر عن استشهاد ما يزيد عن خمسين فلسطيني وإصابة العشرات خلال الأسابيع القليلة الماضية ، مضيفا أن المقاومة تستهدف مواقعاً عسكرية لا كما يزعم الاحتلال أنها مدنية.

ونفى أبو عبيدة في مؤتمر صحفي عقده عصر السبت في غزة مزاعم الاحتلال بأن الحافلة التي استهدفتها كتائب القسام قرب ما يسمى كفار سعد شرق غزة أنها مدنية مؤكدا أنها حافلة تتنقل بين مواقع عسكرية وتمر على طريق عسكري يشكل حزاما أمنيا لتحرك الدبابات التي تطلق القذائف بحق شعبنا.

وشدد الناطق باسم القسام أن إصرار العدو على المضي في عدوانه الهمجي لن "يثنينا عن الرد بالطريقة المناسبة ، مشيرا إلى أنه لا يمكن الحديث عن تهدئة بينما الاحتلال يرتكب المجازر بحق أبناء شعبنا.

وختم أبو عبيدة بتجديد العهد على المضي "جهادنا وثورتنا ضد الاحتلال ومعنا كل الثوار والأحرار في العالم حتى تحرير فلسطين"

English Translation

Confirmed Abu Obeida, a spokesman for al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas military wing, that the Zionist enemy has the responsibility for the escalation in Gaza which resulted in the martyrdom of more than 50 Palestinians and wounding dozens in the past few weeks, adding that the resistance targets military sites, not as the occupation is alleged to be civilian.

I can continue to give you the information you asked for, but at some point you are going to have to actually read it and accept:

* Hamas did fire a guided missile
* Hamas targeted the School bus intentionally with that guided missile
* Hamas claims the school bus is a valid military target


Which have sources, including a Hamas spokespersons name, going on record to claim credit for the attack and the intentional targeting of the school bus with a missile.

What is so difficult to understand? The evidence is there, The claims by Hamas are there. The confirmation of a missile attack are there. The confirmation the bus was intentionallyll targeted are there.

If it were a false flag, Israel would not go through the problems of finding a spokesperson for hamas to claim credit, as it would raise more questions than it would answer, especially with the choice of target.

Secondly, if Israel is behind the attack, and Hamas is taking credit because its an attack on an Israelki target, then they prove my argument that they have absolutely no concern for their own people, knowing full well what type of response Israel would give. The would be intentioanlly putting there own people at risk while at the same time reinforcing the argument Hamas has no issues sacrificing their own civilians to be used as propoganda.

What happened?
* Israel killed 3 Hamas members via airstrike
* Hamas uses a guided missile, intentionallay targets a school bus, and attacks it in retaliation.

Care to make the argument as to how a 16 year old kid is a valid military target?
The civilian body count on the Hamas side would not be nearly as high if they did not use their own people, knowingly and clandestine, as human shields by placing armed / military assets on top of, or nearby civilian areas.


So Again, I have provided evidence, news sources (West and non west), the name of the Hamas spokesperson who claimed responsibility for the attacks, admissions from that spokesman it was intentional, it was a missile, and the target was known.

You have provided................................................

Please, make your case and cite your sources that support your accusations like I hvae done.

reply to post by Xcathdra


You sure post a lot of rhetoric. There's are articles where Israeli officials claim it was a motar so what is your point in claiming that just because one source claims to be truth then it must be accurate compared to many other different versions? You seem to have a clear agenda for what you want to believe. All of your ranting about "do you think targeting children is justified" is completely moot because the whole story has many different official versions and the ones that you prefer, about children being targeted by those damn evil terrorists, seem to be from the sketchiest of all.

I think this is a sad world we live in, with democratic news. Apparently if we can provide the most sources claiming the same biased thing, then it must be true; the few that oppose the biased story don't seem to fit into agendas. Every major news network claimed Saddam had WMD and planned to use them against the US if the US did not invade first. Guess what? That turned out to be bullsh!t too.

None of your "facts" add up. The bus did not get hit by an ATGM, meaning that it was not targeted. Frankly, if I was Hamas, I wouldn't use expensive Kornet missiles to attack children either. I'm surprised that the media isn't crying that a suicide bomber did this: but then again, the ATGM story justifies the anti-suicide bomber wall while justifying Israeli lust to beg for more defense money and a tougher military.

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


So your response would also be no, you have no sources / citations etc to support the claim that Mossad is behind this? You have absolutely no information to refute the Hamas Spokesperson who claimed the attack.You have no information to refute the fact hamas said it was a missile, and you have no information to refute the fact the bus was intentionally targeted?

This seems to be thae standard counter argument strategy you guys use. You ignore the information at hand, and then argue in circles. Just like Backinblack and Proto, you make your claims and argue them, but cant support it.

I have made multiple requests now for sources that support the opposing argument (False Flag / Mossad attack / etc), and as of yet, you guys have been unable to provide that.

Any particular reason why?

reply to post by Xcathdra


You know It's tough to believe you when you yourself post contradicting articles..
From YOUR post..

Palestinian officials reported tank fire toward Gaza shortly after the missile attack. The Israeli fire killed a 50-year-old man and wounded seven people, said Palestinian health official Adham Abu Salmiya.

In the same article.

Israeli soldiers run next to school bus hit by a mortar shell fired from the Gaza Strip near the border between southern Israel and Gaza on Thursday.

www.hurriyetdailynews.com...

If your sources are not consistent then what are we to believe?
Personally the damage was not consistent with an anti tank missile IMO..

I also note you don't quote all the Palestinians civilians killed or injured following this
including a FOUR YEAR OLD GIRL....

reply to post by backinblack


Lets try this again, since you obviously have issues with reading and comprehension -

Turkey Daily news - Englsih

First Paragraph

An anti-tank missile fired from the Gaza Strip struck a school bus in southern Israel Thursday, wounding two people, including one child critically, Israeli officials said.

There is your missile attack and schoolbus...

2nd paragraph -

Israeli tanks quickly retaliated by opening fire across the border, killing a 50-year-old man and wounding seven other people, Palestinian medics said.

And there is your tank fire, which came AFTER the missile attack

What you quoted is near the end of the article, and is from Palestinian accounts -

Palestinian officials reported tank fire toward Gaza shortly after the missile attack. The Israeli fire killed a 50-year-old man and wounded seven people, said Palestinian health official Adham Abu Salmiya.

As far as your last quote, its once again a caption to a photo, which is from the AP and not the Daily Turkey English edition news. Just as the last caption you attempted to use from Fox, which also was from the AP.

If you are going to make your argument, try not to ommit information in a failed effort to justify your support of Hamas attacking a school bus.


As far as the 4 year old girl, start a new thread and we can discuss it there. This thread is about Hamas using a guided missile and intentionally attacking a civilian target - a school bus.

If using a seperate thread is not acceptable to you, then I point you back to several threads where you have done that to me.

Feel free to start that thread, and I will be more than happy to discuss the death of the 4 yo girl there.


As far as my source go, they are consitent. And I will point out, once again, that you still have FAILED to provide ANY sources to support your claim this was done by someon other than Hamas.

Please, cite your sources that support your argument.

Originally posted by forklift
You can quitely ignore thousands of people dying compare to a handful on the other side and than turning it into such a big issue that gives the other side the right to cage, rape and destroy it's neighbours.

Yeah, that's called "war". When prosecuted against "neighbors", it commonly comes as a response to an external attack from said "neighbors". Without the response, it generally isn't called "war", since there aren't, in that case, two actively opposing sides.

BTW, you seem to have an odd definition of the term "neighbor". If my "neighbors" decide that it's necessary to drive me away or kill me by violent means, I think they'll know "war" on a scale they didn't conceive of when they initiated their campaign.

-In this thread we have established that whatever hit the bus definetly wasn't an 'anti-tank' rocket.

No, that hasn't been definitively established one way or the other, just opinions given, which may or may not be in error.

Israel will never stop building illegal settlements whether Hamas and it's pringle tubes exist or not.

Where is this "Pringle's can" thing coming from? It's been mentioned a couple of times now, but I can't find a basis for it. I've actually seen home-made mortars built from schedule 80 pipe, but a Pringles can is a new one on me.

PLO bad, Arafat bad, Hamas bad , Al-Aqsa bad, why don't pro-israelis just cut the crap and say the whole of muslim world is bad?

Quite a stretch there. I note that you specifically mention 4 terrorist organizations and people, but there is NO mention of non-terrorist organizations (if you need help in that area, I can point some out for you), then you extrapolate YOUR assessment to ALL ARABS as a blanket statement, THEN attribute the statement to someone else, as if you didn't construct it entirely on your own.

Neat how that works, huh?

The only thing I can seriously take from that statement is that you think anyone who is "anti-terrorist" is also "pro-Israeli", as if there is some sort of linkage there apart from the one in your mind. This then, by your own construction here, leads to the inescapable and logical conclusion that since you are "anti-Israeli", then you MUST by necessity be "pro-terrorist" according t your own world view.

Isn't extrapolation fun?

One thing is clear though, until israel exists in Middle East there will never ever be peace.

While US tax payers and soldiers keep paying the price for the protection of the 'G-Ds chosen' people.

Careful, the color of your slip is showing...

reply to post by nenothtu


The pringles can comment origonated with BackinBlack, and it was near the first few pages of this thread. It was when his argument was it was a rocket and not guided missile. The intent was to portray the pringles can as harmless rockets launched at Israel.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Here's a whole thread that contradicts your claims: abovetopsecret.com...

It wasn't a Kornet that hit that bus. The Russians don't build modern ATGMs that put small holes in unarmored schoolbusses. Why do I even need sources when the evidence clearly does not show what your sources claim?

reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi


Intresting.. so aside from establishing that the bus was not armored, what does it have to do with this thread? Also, that info wasx posted in this thread a few pages back.

It does not account for Hamas taking credit for the attack.
It does not account for Hamas intentionallay targeting the bus

At what point are you guys going to understand that Hamas has claimed responsibility? Hamas stated it was a missile, and Hamas stated the targeting of the bus was intentional.

Those facts are not in dispute.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by nenothtu

 

The pringles can comment origonated with BackinBlack, and it was near the first few pages of this thread. It was when his argument was it was a rocket and not guided missile. The intent was to portray the pringles can as harmless rockets launched at Israel.

Not at all. He was commenting on how the Gazans must build weapons out of garbage to defend themselves... I doubt there are even pringo cans in Gaza considering Israel bombs their food tunnels on a regular basis.

Quite ironic how the US decided that they must arm the rebels in Libya though, eh?

reply to post by Xcathdra

Lets try this again, since you obviously have issues with reading and comprehension -

Mate you are getting so boring with your crap..

Again, my comprehension is fine but I have many doubts about yours..

What I quoted was from YOUR source and was the caption under the picture..
I doubt Hamas was around taking pics so I'd say it was the Israelis..

Again It looks like the Israeli propagandists forgot to remove the caption that obviously a reporter "on site" had added after talking to Israeli officials..

Seriously this issue has been blown up so rapidly it's pretty damn obvious the intent is to try and justify increased aggression by Israel..

All the comments sections are filled with pro Israel comments..
Mossad must have called every disinfo agent they have in for duty and are paying overtime..

I have seriously NEVER seen such a commotion over a single attack in a war tor country when NO ONE was even killed..

The verbal attacks on Hamas are WAY out of proportion for an incident with merely 2 injuries yet fail to mention retaliatory actions have killed 30 and injured many more including a FOUR YEAR OLD GIRL..

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Why do I even need sources when the evidence clearly does not show what your sources claim?

I ask for sources because you are making claims / statements that arent backed up by anything other than your opinion and refusal to accept the facts at hand.

If you claim Hamas was controlled by Mossad in this attack, thats fine - provide proof of the claim.
If you claim this was a false flag attack - Thats fine, provide proof of your claim


Absent that you have Hamas taking credit for the attack, confirming its a guided missile, and confirming the targfeting of the bus was intentional.

Those are factsthat are not in dispute because they come directly from the Spokesperson for Hamas.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by nenothtu

 

The pringles can comment origonated with BackinBlack, and it was near the first few pages of this thread. It was when his argument was it was a rocket and not guided missile. The intent was to portray the pringles can as harmless rockets launched at Israel.

Ah, I see. The way it got taken up across the board as some sort of battle cry, I thought it must have had some sort of external source, rather than have originated as sarcasm.

Pringles cans are rockets now? I KNEW there was something unsafe about those things! Someone ought to get ahold of Ralph Nader and clue him into that! I bet that would change post haste! I'll be tip-toeing around the potato chip aisle until they do!

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by nenothtu

 

The pringles can comment origonated with BackinBlack, and it was near the first few pages of this thread. It was when his argument was it was a rocket and not guided missile. The intent was to portray the pringles can as harmless rockets launched at Israel.

It appears Hamas rockets are harmless.

In 9 years we are told they have launched over 11,000 missiles of one sort or another, and yet nobody has been killed or even injured.

Strange don't you think ?

source

reply to post by Xcathdra


Actually yeah, I have disputed your "facts" about Hamas claiming to have hit this bus with a Kornet because they 1) are contradicted by other sources 2) make no damn sense.

EDIT: Who said anything about Mossad framing Hamas? Man, you are either lost in your delusion or your paid per post.

reply to post by backinblack


So that would be no, you have no sources that can back up your argument other than pointing out 2 photos from the AP, with captions that say mortar, that are only attached to the main article because they needed a phot to go with the story.

The photo captions are placed by AP btw....

and yes, I will continue to suggest you actually read and understand what you are reading before you try to mislead other readers by making claims that are in fact not true.

Namely saying my own source contradicts itself, when in fact it does not. Trying to incorperate the photo and caption into the article is nothing more than grasping at straws for your argument.

As I said before... Make your arguemtn and cite your sources (which you have completely failed to do so far).

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

Actually yeah, I have disputed your "facts" about Hamas claiming to have hit this bus with a Kornet because they 1) are contradicted by other sources 2) make no damn sense.

Cite your sources and proivide your links please.