Christopher Hitchens Goes After Rabbi Harold Kushner

Originally posted by babloyi

There are definite benefits to circumcision, and it would be a bit odd to completely ignore or deny them.

I'm sure there are benefits to be discovered for removal of the clitoris also. And hell, someone might also find a benefit in losing any body part. However, finding benefit for circumcision is hardly more than post hoc rationale for condoning a bizarre practice sourced specifically to a desert religion. Sorry, but possession of a foreskin is not the huge health risk it's often portrayed to be.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by lostinspace
Also fermentation did not take place in the antediluvian world.

Really?
Explain.

The theory mainly comes from this bible passage in Genesis.

Genesis 9:20-21

Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent.

www.biblegateway.com...

Noah was a pretty righteous guy in God's eyes so it's not likely he got drunk on purpose. The fermenting process of grape juice must have been alien to him.

By the way, I do not think circumcision is a requirement these days. I was just trying to find a technical explanation why God would authorize a deviation from his original design.

Originally posted by ken10
reply to post by lostinspace

 

Before the Flood it did not rain as it does today

Have you got a link for that......That just seems a preposterous statement.

The following passage in Genesis is where this theory comes from.

Genesis 2:5-6

Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, but streams (or a mist) came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

www.biblegateway.com...

By the way, I do not think circumcision is a requirement these days.

We are getting way off topic here people. This is not a thread about religion. It is a thread which askes people to discuss the hypothesis that slicing the foreskin from an child with no anesthetic by an untrained non medical proactitioner in some living room sommewhere is paramount to child abuse and should be outlawed.

Where are the mods?

reply to post by Shamatt


I agree with you on that one Shamatt. If the baby is to be circumcised then it should be done in a hospital with a proper physician. The archaic ways should be done away with. The ritual circumcision should have gone out with the animal sacrifices.

reply to post by Shamatt


hitchens is such an ass. he had a brazilian bikini wax and made money off of publicizing it. he mutilated his own genitals for money and fame and then blames peopel for circumsizing men for religious reasons.

i'm not talkin about female mutilation, that's pretty horrible.

Originally posted by IvanObanion
reply to post by Shamatt

 

hitchens is such an ass. he had a brazilian bikini wax and made money off of publicizing it. he mutilated his own genitals for money and fame and then blames peopel for circumsizing men for religious reasons.

i'm not talkin about female mutilation, that's pretty horrible.

You think waxing your pubic hair is mutilation? Please explaine this. IS cutting your head heair mutilation? Or shaving your armits or waxing your chest? - If I could make money from waxing my pubes I would do it in an instant, does that meke me an ass?

And slicing the foreskin off of an infant is cruel, and to do it for religious reasons is despicable. Lets think about it:

Abraham comes in one evening.
Hello, where have you been the last few weeks mate?
Oh, I have been wondering about in the desert.
Really?
Yes! I Spoke to God!
Really?
Yes, he wants me to cut the end of my penis off.
Really????
Yes, and everyone else has to as well, and all the babies when they are born. We have to cut the end of everyones penis!
Nurse!!!!

(www.jesuswalk.com...)

Now, I'm sorry, but If my 99 year old Grandad came in from a walk in the hot sun and told me he had been talking to God I think I would sit him down with a nice cold glass of watter and call for the nurse!

And yet a whole religion follow these instructions! Ye Gods, where has all the sence gone? And even worse, millions of others do it, well, because it is easier than thinking about it, and any way you don't want you kid to look different in the showers as school and end up killing themselves!

Pure stupidity bred in to so many peopple. Mainly Americans, there's no surprise.

I think this barbarric practice should be outlawed. Let stupid grown ups do as they will to themselves. I have peircings and tattoos etc - that is my choice as an adult. Would you tattoo and peirce your babies? No, so don't mutilate their genitals, male or femail, it is not acceptable in this modern age.

reply to post by lokdog


and people just like you are the ones to blame...

I suppose you should pat you and your god on the back for pushing a child to suicide....

reply to post by lokdog


I thought I had heard it all concerning this issue before, but your suicide scenario really takes the cake. Do you have any statistics to back up your claim? Can you present even ONE documented incident where someone has committed suicide over being teased for not having been circumcised? I can present to you plenty of cases where children have actually DIED because of circumcision.

Google Search

I'll even do you one better, here's a very sad story about a man who lost his genitals as a child because of a botched circumcision and, because of the lack of medical technology at the time, was raised as a girl. The person that this all happened to, David Reimer, did unfortunately go on to commit suicide.

reply to post by Shamatt


Amazing how you target the Jews in your original thread.......

Let me educate you:

Those who circumcise their sons: 100% of the following: Jews, Muslims, Arab Christians, Armenians, Cook Islanders, Madagasca, Cameroon, Congo; then the following can be included: wealthy Spanish 4%, Kenya 90%, South Koreans 95%, Phillippines 95%, Australian Caucasians 60% but now declining, Australian Aboriginals 95%, USA (white Caucasian) 90%, Canada 50%, Native Americans 75%, USA Hispanics 60% (Sth American is rare), Afro-Americans 75%, NZ & UK 40% but now declining...

Hindu and Buddist: was once 100% then declined for a period of time and now increasing again.

Whether or not you circumcise your sons is not my problem however it's always those who don't circumcise always seems to have an opinion on the subject and ALWAYS use the Jews as an example and NEVER other racial or religious groups. Thank God my sons won't lay with your daughters and my daughters won't lay with your sons!!! Now take THAT to the bank!

Originally posted by bluemirage5
reply to post by Shamatt

 

Amazing how you target the Jews in your original thread.......

Let me educate you:

Those who circumcise their sons: 100% of the following: Jews, Muslims, Arab Christians, Armenians, Cook Islanders, Madagasca, Cameroon, Congo; then the following can be included: wealthy Spanish 4%, Kenya 90%, South Koreans 95%, Phillippines 95%, Australian Caucasians 60% but now declining, Australian Aboriginals 95%, USA (white Caucasian) 90%, Canada 50%, Native Americans 75%, USA Hispanics 60% (Sth American is rare), Afro-Americans 75%, NZ & UK 40% but now declining...

Hindu and Buddist: was once 100% then declined for a period of time and now increasing again.

This is the type of education I am happy to miss out on unless you can provide references. I do beleive you just made up these numbers. I know for a fact that some of them are untrue from my own research. (Yes I have read widely on this topic) I want to see where you got these "statistics" from. But thank you for trying.

Originally posted by bluemirage5

Whether or not you circumcise your sons is not my problem however it's always those who don't circumcise always seems to have an opinion on the subject......

Perhaps those of us who are not mutilated are sick of the attitude that it is US who are weird? We are the oddballs? We who are ugly, somehow deformed for being natural?

Originally posted by bluemirage5

......and ALWAYS use the Jews as an example and NEVER other racial or religious groups.

I use the most obvious and well known example. Is that a sin? I appologise if I made you or anyone else feel picked on. However, I do know about the proceedings at a brys (Excuse me if spelt wrong) and this is exactly the type of cuelty to children which I feel should be labeled as abuse and outlawed. No docotors or nurses present, no sterile surroundings, no backup by trained medical personell if something were to go wrong, no pain releif for the poor child. Immagine, slicing off the most sensative part of your whole body with no pain releif? F**k ME!!!!! And before you start out on the line that "it doesn't hurt the child" I have seen the apparatus they strap those poor kids to. And the tools they use (Forgive me, I can't remember what they are called)

For those of you brave enough, see the instruments of torture, and a video of preceedings here. Then tell me this is humane. Something you would do to a child you are supposed to love and protect.

www.intact.ca...

I have also read the reasearch discussing pain threasholds and tollerences in men circumsided in this way compared to uncut men.

Circumcised boys have a lower pain threshold than girls and uncircumcised boys.

Ref www.birthpsychology.com... - A fascinating read - I urge you to go there and read all the available information.

Originally posted by bluemirage5

Thank God my sons won't lay with your daughters and my daughters won't lay with your sons!!! Now take THAT to the bank!

You know, this is the type of racial/religious hatred that causes wars. You should be ashamed of yourself. You can not deny love, whatever the race, creed or religion of those who are in love. As biggoted and disgracefull as your closed minded attitude is, I would be happy for my shildren (If I had any, which I don't and won't ever have) to partner with yours. Of course, within the realms of this hypothetical union I would do everything in my power to make sure that any offspring were not mutilated as babies.

Edit to add - My bank deals in fact and figures. I don't understand your last words. Although they do feel somehow agressive. Care to explain?

Originally posted by lostinspace
Noah was a pretty righteous guy in God's eyes so it's not likely he got drunk on purpose. The fermenting process of grape juice must have been alien to him.

Thanks for explaining that. To me though, I can't associate that passage with a claim that fermentation did not occur on earth until after the biblical flood.

reply to post by Shamatt


Those stats are clearly accessable via Google and are all Govt stats from each country.

There are less than 15 million Jews worldwide and 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide yet you targeted the Jews; for what purpose other than what most Jew haters do on ATS.

Your ignorance is alarming and your research is misinformed; are you aware of just how many non-circumcised males each year visit their GPs for severe infections and having to be circumcised? The lines are long all over the Western world; GPs against circumcisim won't tell you the stats because it does'nt coincide with their agenda. Although HPV affects both circumcised and un-circumcised but the numbers of HPV are FAR greater among those who are uncircumcised by 100 to 1 while the infections last twice as long for those uncircumcised. Most uncircumcised males don't even know they have HPV.....that is directly related to most types of cervical cancers....it's no wonder your daughters needed the HPV vaccine that WILL cause infertility among a percentage of those girls having this vaccine. Basically, an uncircumcised male is unclean no matter how much he alleges he cleans himself; going by the stats, obviously no where near enough.

There are CLEAR advantages for circumcisim.....for me it's a religious, moral and ethical choice I made....does it make me a child abuser? Not even close when comparing the stats of REAL child abuse and neglect among non-Jewish countries yet you're pretty good at pointing fingers at another particular group whose children are far more educated than yours because we ALWAYS put our children FIRST above all other matter.....it's not because we love our children more, it's because our children ARE our life until our last breath.

My bet is, if all males worldwide were circumcised, HPV would dramatically drop by a clear 85-90+%. Now you just go out there and prove me otherwise.

reply to post by bluemirage5

Although HPV affects both circumcised and un-circumcised but the numbers are FAR greater among those who are circumcised by 100 to 1 while the infections last twice as long for those uncircumcised.

Are you sure that is a good reason for being circumcised ?

reply to post by ken10


had to correct that

reply to post by bluemirage5


You horrible man! How dare you suggest I am a hater of Jews? You don't know anything about me. I already said I just picked the most obvious example - you may accuse me of many things, but antisemitism is not accurate. Now knock that chip of your shoulder. I have been nothing but reasonable in my interactions here, don't make personnal attacks on me, you are showing yourself up. Typical, I suppose, that when disagreed with you pull the Jew Hater card out of the bag. Well you know what mate, it is that sort of bad behaviour which can become a self fullfliling prophecy. I can disagree with you and your practices without hating you, do you understand that? But by accusing me of being a Jew Hater will evenbtually make me dislike you intensly. Do you understand?

As for the rest of your post, it is rubish and propoganda. I have lived 43 years on this planet as an intacte male and have never ever had a urinary tract infection. My wife of 20 years is likewise as healthy.

Are you really suggesting that your good and great God made a mistake with the foreskin and that we have to fix that as our children are brought into this world? And that your good anf great God lied to hgis people about why we have to remove this erronious bit of skin "As a covanant with me" rather than "Because I cocked up" - literally! lol

There is no point arguing with you because your stats are produced by those who are pro, and mine are produced by those who are anti, and they will never match up. You will beleive wht you want to, as will I, and neither of us will ever convince the other that he is wrong. Fair enough, I can live with that.

But if you loved your children so very much, surely you would at least have this act carried out in a hostpital with full pain releif, and full medical backup? No? Did you read about the pain threashold studies? Did you read about the yoga position studies? No? You really should - you would certainly learn something.

What you people (And many many other religions, you are right about that) do to your children is child abuse. Plain and simple. To slice off the foreskin with no pain releif is child abuse. Strapping a child down to a board so that it is immobile and taking cold hard steel to the penis is child abuse. You can defend it all you want, You can spout off stats about infection (All of which are incorrect) all you want. This is not on topic anyway. The point of this post is that every child who is treated in this way is the subject of child abuse, and many studies agree with that, and sight various physical and psycological consequences. And that IS a fact you can't deny. Go ahead and call me a Jew Hater all you like, I am not a child abuser, and that. my friend, is that.

reply to post by Shamatt


I was unaware that circumcision by Jews is used without anesthetic. It sounds barbaric in this modern age. I feel sorry for the infants.

God did not design the male organ wrong. Our anatomy was intended to be in a different type of atmosphere, where no infection was possible. No torrential downpour of rain, no rainbow effect, no fermentation and very high longevity was the pre-flood world.

Originally posted by lostinspace
reply to post by Shamatt

 

God did not design the male organ wrong. Our anatomy was intended to be in a different type of atmosphere, where no infection was possible. No torrential downpour of rain, no rainbow effect, no fermentation and very high longevity was the pre-flood world.

What? This is such an oddly curious thing to say that I can't let it pass without comment or question.

How, exactly, did you come to this conclusion and what kind of backing can you bring to bear here. Kinda interested.

Thanks
KJ

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Originally posted by lostinspace
reply to post by Shamatt

 

God did not design the male organ wrong. Our anatomy was intended to be in a different type of atmosphere, where no infection was possible. No torrential downpour of rain, no rainbow effect, no fermentation and very high longevity was the pre-flood world.

What? This is such an oddly curious thing to say that I can't let it pass without comment or question.

How, exactly, did you come to this conclusion and what kind of backing can you bring to bear here. Kinda interested.

Thanks
KJ

No torrential rain before Flood.
Gen. 2:5-6
www.biblegateway.com...


Longevity of people before the Flood.
Gen. 5:3-31
www.biblegateway.com...:3-31&version=NIV


First rainbow mentioned after Flood.
Gen. 9:12-16
www.biblegateway.com...:12-16&version=NIV


First mention of grape fermentation after Flood.
Gen. 9:20-21
www.biblegateway.com...:20-21&version=NIV

reply to post by lostinspace


Any actuall science to back up your claims. The bible is not science. You cannot base a scientific argument on what is written in it as you are attempting to do.

Edited to add:

Surely God, who knows everything, would have had the foresight to design us with post flood climate and conditions in mind. He knew the flood would come, and there is a lot more time post flood than there was pre flood. Seems odd he would make such a mistake. "Oh, bugger, I forgot that after the flood this would be a problem"

Also, what about God lying to his creation? You must do this as a covenant to me, rather than, you must do this 'cos I made a mistake?

Also, 90% of all circumsicion in the US, Jew or non Jew, is done with no anesthetic. (100% of Jewish circumcision) In Canada it is about 80%.