The Athiest Mind: One man's guide to Theism and Disbelief

reply to post by infojunkie2


While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't really believe in prayer or that it does anything other than promote "wishful thinking." However if that is what you wish to do, please be my guest, but don't make me a burden.


You know, I expected to get berated in this thread, but I had hoped that by putting forth my experiences that I would at least have a decent shot at having a semi-neutral discussion on the topic of theism and today's society. I should have known better, but I'll deal with it like I always do.

I simply can't understand how I can be so detailed and clear in my message while remaining fairly neutral against any particular theistic belief yet I still get labeled as a soap box antagonist with a vendetta. It's just proof to me that no matter how clear and precise I am when I speak that certain people believe so blindly that they don't even bother to look at what's right in front of them.

Thanks for the comments.

King

reply to post by Kingalbrect79


That's ok the person on the recieving end of prayer does not have to believe,nor does it keep it from being effective and making an impact.

I am courious aren't there things that you too blindly believe in?

reply to post by Kingalbrect79


and since you nor any of your fellow believers can provide any concrete evidence that the story you preach is true, I stand as an atheist.


Holy misinterpretation...


From my original post:

You are no better than the zealot down the street standing on a rented soap box...you find empowerment through the label of 'atheist', yet you're as a big a tool as those that claim their god is the only way.

Attention to detail man...I'm no believer, nor an atheist.


You didn't get it - both groups are in denial IMO. Now, if you had understood that originally, I bet your post would have been different, huh..?

I was a militant atheist for a long time.

But due to my own personal problems, I had a huge interest in psychology. Eventually I had read too much Carl Jung to remain hostile to religion.

Fast forward. Now I know without a shadow of a doubt that there's more to this universe than meets the eye.

Stay open-minded. That's all I'm sayin'.

reply to post by Kingalbrect79

Thanks for posting this. I had a very different path than yours, but a very similar result. My parents were both raised in Catholic households and I was raised, at least nominally, Catholic as well. My initial schooling was parochial, but it was out of a sense of convenience - my birthday is in November and the local public school system wouldn't accept me as a student the year that my parents wanted me to start school. Instead of waiting almost another entire year, they enrolled me in a Catholic elementary school. I went along with the flow because, simply, I didn't know anything different. Religion wasn't part of my day-to-day life outside of school. I left for public school at the beginning of my sixth grade year and continued going to church until just before I would have started the process of Confirmation. My dad felt a deep sense of detachment from the church and my mom, with a little pressure from dad, conceded that I was bright enough to make decisions about religion for myself. Ever since then, I've gradually progressed toward an agnostic atheist point of view. I finally really came to terms with it about a year ago when my wife got pregnant and we had to start thinking about how our child would be raised. She was raised Jewish, but with the same lack of emphasis on religion as a fundamental part of day-to-day life as I was. We plan on educating our son, three months old as of yesterday, about religion when he's old enough to understand it an objective way. But, like you, I want him to understand morality and kindness and respect for his fellow man for their own sake, without them having to be based on fear of some kind of metaphysical pain or spiritual bribery for a good spot in the afterlife. I've never begrudged anyone their faith, I just hope (maybe naively) that he isn't begrudged his lack of faith if it's the path he chooses for himself.

I was right there with you in denial of biblical truth. I spent 30 years in the Baptist Church before I started to really doubt. This is the place most believers get when they are at a tipping point between the material world and faith in what every person ultimately hopes for. Everyone wants peace and understanding. They want to know that the future will be okay, despite the fact that everything seems unsure. This is precisely how love works. True love is a struggle at times and a joy at unexpected times. Love is not all joy, but rests in the love of the other for peace. The struggle leads to appreciation and adoration if love is the basis of the relationship. If the basis of the relationship is selfishness (What's in it for me), then there is no loving relationship at all.

I have since come back to my faith in a big way. I learned what duplicity means and recognized it in myself. Duplicity is saying one thing but really meaning another. This is selfishness and pride. It's a type of lie to avoid fear when love is not present. Most believers and atheists live in this world of attachment to fear. On the one hand, you want to please God for the reward. On the other, you want to avoid punishment. Neither of these are reasons to believe or not believe. This is duplicity. Good is its own reward and this is the thing to learn from life. When your only aim is loving-kindness to others, you have found love. The flower begins to bloom from this point and you see God for what He represents.

Once you realize that nothing here in this world will satisfy your selfish duplicity, you come to realize the point of it all. Reward will never answer what you truly desire form life. The fear of punishment only pushes you to more fear. God has never demonstrated this by his word. His demonstration is simple. Faith, Hope and Love. The results of duplicity represent everything else. God is not responsible for this duplicity, we are. It's the same in a husband and wife relationship. All problems arise from selfishness.

When you release your attachment to the flesh and material desires, you give up your connection to the fear that it might be lost. This has nothing to do with selling all your possessions or walking away from your family and living in the woods as a religious hermit or monk. Although some people head this direction, what Christ meant by renouncing the material world is this: Rest in God only as you walk the path of life. Love your God (Shepherd of men) with your whole heart. Give up your love for the world and give up the fear that it can ever be lost. Nothing is lost with God when love is the aim.

Once you are in this place of detachment, something profound happens that transforms your desires. You suddenly realize the gifts in this life that God has granted. You realize that there is nothing you have that God did not give. You realize that your steps have been ordered by Him from the beginning. You realize that this day, reading this thread, was meant for a reason. God is always at work fulfilling His part of the loving relationship. Even if that means protecting us from evil or allowing us to fall into our own mistakes. Reaping and sowing are laws and not punishment. Blessings are not earned, they are bestowed in loving-kindness. We are the only ones who can be selfish. God needs nothing but only desires our love in return.

We are all affected by three things in life: Choice, Chance and the actions of others. Chance is not probability at all, it's the providence of God working in all of our lives. Nothing that occurs in your life is wasted. Events will always point you to realizing that the steps you take are beside God. Sinner or saint, God is there guiding you. You can only see this when you give it all up first to God. This is trust. Love needs to be reciprocated.

Faith, Hope and Love is all that is worth anything in this life. Nothing else matters.

This is true belief. Some get it, some don't.

reply to post by Kingalbrect79


King . . .

Based on your OP, you and I are a lot alike, even down to how we are raising our children. The only real difference is that I was raised in a split religious family (Jewish/German Lutheren . . . not cool in the time my parents were married!).

Saying that . . . I've found you can't talk/bring up the Christian mythology or even question Christian dogma or beliefs and expect a honest debate on the merits of your argument. The persecution complex is deeply ingrained into Christianity. They celebrate it. If you ask honest questions they may, for the most part, simply let you know that you don't understand the way they do . . . due to their "personal relationship" with their saviour. However, most when faced with tough questions or criticisms, go straight to claiming you hate christians or have a vendetta or just trying to attack them. I think, they think, this somehow renders any criticism invalid because there is nothing wrong with their beliefs . . . you just have an agenda. Also, the persecution complex draws a lot of sympathy and most will retract their criticisms to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

Anyway . . . nice try to relate your beliefs. I enjoyed all of your posts. Keep up the good fight.

You mean like the post before yours? I'm a Christian. I will agree with you on one point. Bias reveals what is truly in the heart.

Originally posted by solomons path
reply to post by Kingalbrect79

 

King . . .

Based on your OP, you and I are a lot alike, even down to how we are raising our children. The only real difference is that I was raised in a split religious family (Jewish/German Lutheren . . . not cool in the time my parents were married!).

Saying that . . . I've found you can't talk/bring up the Christian mythology or even question Christian dogma or beliefs and expect a honest debate on the merits of your argument. The persecution complex is deeply ingrained into Christianity. They celebrate it. If you ask honest questions they may, for the most part, simply let you know that you don't understand the way they do . . . due to their "personal relationship" with their saviour. However, most when faced with tough questions or criticisms, go straight to claiming you hate christians or have a vendetta or just trying to attack them. I think, they think, this somehow renders any criticism invalid because there is nothing wrong with their beliefs . . . you just have an agenda. Also, the persecution complex draws a lot of sympathy and most will retract their criticisms to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

Anyway . . . nice try to relate your beliefs. I enjoyed all of your posts. Keep up the good fight.

"Lewis: I was at that time living like many atheists; in a whirl of contradictions. I maintained that God did not exist. I was also very angry with God for not existing. I was equally angry with him for creating a world."

C.S. Lewis - from atheism to theism

That was a great video.

Originally posted by Faith2011

[SNIP]

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.

reply to post by Faith2011


CS Lewis? Seriously? The mediocre author and poor theologian couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag. And he clearly wasn't an atheist if he was angry at that which he didn't believe. I'm not angry at any deity...nor should I be. I mean, I'm all sorts of pissed off at some of the people who believe in those deities for various reasons, but the deity itself doesn't get any of it. Hell, the book tends to get my scorn instead.

reply to post by facelift

Originally posted by facelift
reply to post by Kingalbrect79

 

and since you nor any of your fellow believers can provide any concrete evidence that the story you preach is true, I stand as an atheist.


Holy misinterpretation...

Holy high horse.

From my original post:

You are no better than the zealot down the street standing on a rented soap box...you find empowerment through the label of 'atheist', yet you're as a big a tool as those that claim their god is the only way.

Attention to detail man...I'm no believer, nor an atheist.

You are either a believer or an atheist. It's an either or...so you're one or the other. There isn't a third option.

You didn't get it - both groups are in denial IMO.

Except that they aren't...and your ignorant assuming of the high ground is really the sort of thing that grinds my gears because you're clearly someone who doesn't understand atheism nor do you bother to respond to the entirety of posts leveled against you. Hell, you didn't even bother to respond to my last post which rent your ignorance asunder.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
You mean like the post before yours? I'm a Christian. I will agree with you on one point. Bias reveals what is truly in the heart.

You mean the one where you accuse anyone who doesn't believe in God and accept Christ as their personal savior of being duplicitous?

Originally posted by SuperiorEd

You mean like the post before yours? I'm a Christian. I will agree with you on one point. Bias reveals what is truly in the heart.

Originally posted by solomons path
reply to post by Kingalbrect79

 

King . . .

Based on your OP, you and I are a lot alike, even down to how we are raising our children. The only real difference is that I was raised in a split religious family (Jewish/German Lutheren . . . not cool in the time my parents were married!).

Saying that . . . I've found you can't talk/bring up the Christian mythology or even question Christian dogma or beliefs and expect a honest debate on the merits of your argument. The persecution complex is deeply ingrained into Christianity. They celebrate it. If you ask honest questions they may, for the most part, simply let you know that you don't understand the way they do . . . due to their "personal relationship" with their saviour. However, most when faced with tough questions or criticisms, go straight to claiming you hate christians or have a vendetta or just trying to attack them. I think, they think, this somehow renders any criticism invalid because there is nothing wrong with their beliefs . . . you just have an agenda. Also, the persecution complex draws a lot of sympathy and most will retract their criticisms to avoid hurting someone's feelings.

Anyway . . . nice try to relate your beliefs. I enjoyed all of your posts. Keep up the good fight.

edit on 11-4-2011 by SuperiorEd because: (no reason given)

Actually, I was responding to an earlier post by King . . . didn't even read yours before responding. But, now that you mention it and in light of your subsequent post. . . Yes, thank you for proving my point. Preach on, brother!

reply to post by madnessinmysoul



The Truth Must Be Rightly Divided (Context)

www.theomatics.com...

www.wordworx.co.nz...

www.biblewheel.com...

"Bible Wheel is a view of the Bible that displays its sixty-six books as a circular matrix of three wheels within a wheel. The increase from the traditional one-dimensional list of books to the two-dimensional Bible Wheel reveals otherwise hidden patterns. It is literally a view from a "higher dimension"

Solomons Path:

. . . I've found you can't talk/bring up the Christian mythology or even question Christian dogma or beliefs and expect a honest debate on the merits of your argument. The persecution complex is deeply ingrained into Christianity. They celebrate it. If you ask honest questions they may, for the most part, simply let you know that you don't understand the way they do . . . due to their "personal relationship" with their saviour. However, most when faced with tough questions or criticisms, go straight to claiming you hate christians or have a vendetta or just trying to attack them.

That is exactly what I was trying to say previously. I am not the one personally attacking christianity, pastors, or any other individual of faith for who they are or what they believe in. I've stated multiple times that my problems lie within the majority of religions and with the actual concept of religion as well. I didn't expect a complete civil discussion on the issue, but I had hoped that if many christians truly followed the "God is Love" mentality as they claim that they wouldn't be attacking me so much as asking why or attempting to have a civilized discussion. Instead when I ask questions, I get critisizm, ridicule and I apparently have "an agenda."

In any case it's sad that the previous posts are nothing more than re-inforcements to my posts and proof of how religion affects people and how they interact with each other.

Faith 2011:

Just as madness stated, I am not angry at something I don't believe in. I am not angry at myself or the world. I am not an angry person, but I am frustrated just like every other atheist who is constantly pushed around by the masses of people who think that their religion is the answer and that if we only believe that we will see the truth.

Unfortunately the truth is something we have to show evidence for, truth is something that has to be proven in the case of theism. I'm sorry to say, millions of people have tried to show evidence for your bearded leader for over 2000 years and the absolute best they can come up with is "my personal relationship" or a book of stories borrowed from other religions waaaay before it, compiled, edited, multi-authored and re-written to fit the agenda of the time. Here is a question for you, and I hope that you answer it honestly:

If "God" has a plan and we are all part of it, then why make me an atheist? Why if "God" is love and so good does he make the overwhelming majority of the most intelligent people on the planet atheists for their entire lives only to eternally punish them for questioning something that "he" made them? Sounds awful hypocritical and a bit sadistic if you ask me. What do you say about them?

Faith 2011:

Regarding your bible wheels, have you thought at all about Subjective Validation?

I find it oddly ironic that with all the bible codes and supposed hidden patterns in your book that I can't ever remember of a single event that was "predicted" by the bible, only that a supposed "connection" was found AFTER THE FACT.

Finding patterns in writing is not difficult when you are looking for them. I could take a number of books and potentially find patterns in their writing because human language is structured the same. We speak according to our language and our descriptors are simliar to those used in the past. Words change, new ones are added, but in the end the structure is almost always the same, and this is where you find your patterns. I am not an expert on biblical patterns or other text patterns within written material so I will not begin to try and debate you on the technical aspects of it. I'm sure you just picked your favorite bible site out of your bookmarks and posted it, so I highly doubt you are an expert on the subject, so let's just leave it at that.

I am consistantly amazed at the number of posts trying to take the high road of just passing ideas off as faith, and then berating people like myself who choose to question them; while all at the same time putting blame on the atheist, myself specifically for speaking my mind and then trying to make me into a fanatical non-believer out to strip you of your belief system.

Nothing could be further from the truth, but time and time again christian dogma supports this theory.

King