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The Athiest Mind: One man's guide to Theism and Disbelief
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I am the son of a hard working mother and a long-haul truck driver. I have not had the best of everything, but for the majority of my life I have been
happy with what i've been given. I have been taught humility, acceptance and goodwill towards my fellow man. I have good morales and a clean record,
just like I was taught.
I have also never been taught RELIGION.
Coming from a family where my mother was religious but said very little to nothing about it and a father that was gone more than he was home, I was left to my own devices to determine where my life was going and what I should do with it. Having grown up in many different states because of moving I learned to adapt to changing conditions on the fly. I started school in Texas and was too smart for my class. I was doing fifth and sixth grade work in first grade; I was hyperactive and the only way for my parents to handle me was to medicate me. Instead of recognizing my need for more information and at a faster pace, they instead slowed me down so that I would blend in with the rest of the world. I was made to become a sheep against my will; something that would neve be repeated. I knew from a very early age that I was different than the rest of my classmates because I was naturally artistic and I grew extremely fast. We moved from Texas to Idaho where I lived in a log cabin with no power, running water, electricity or plumbing. We essentially drifted back to the 1800's and you know what? I enjoyed it; it was one of the most entertaining times in my life. I was one with nature and I needed nothing but a couple good friends, my imagination and a good survival knife.
Having only lived in Idaho for two years, we moved to Washington State where I would spend the rest of my time in one school through graduation. Seventh grade was a very difficult time for me because I separated from the class yet again so far that I could never recover. I was the one that the school picked on, I was called names, beat up and almost killed once by a student some years later who thought it would be funny to try and run me down on my bicycle with his farm truck. Had I not jumped a ditch into a wooden path he might have hit me.
For every event in my life that took me farther and farther into seclusion I had two different points of guidance from my parents. My father, when he was home once or twice a month was that I should just do what I wanted to do and if they push, push back. My mother on the other hand told me that I should ignore them and just concentrate on myself. Since both of them gave similar advice, I simply let things happen as they did; often times to my detrement and with bruises to prove it. This continued up until the day I graduated high school and left that town. The interesting part of this backstory is that during this obviously traumatic and depressive state in which I spent YEARS, not once did my mother mention "God", "Jesus" or try and force me to read the bible, attend church (which she never did either despite believing) or any other form of religious influence.
During my teenage years I decided to follow my friends to church on Sunday and even attended nightly youth group meetings during the week on Thursdays. I don't remember my exact age, but I know at some point the pastor asked me if I wanted to accept Jesus into my life and I figured "what the hell," no pun intended. I followed the steps, I was a good kid, albeit a recluse; in either case I was a stereotypical christian kid for the period of about two years. During that entire time I just didn't seem to understand why everyone around me pressed so hard to believe when my own mother let me figure it out on my own; some years later I would come to understand.
I stopped attending church after awhile and eventually stopped attending youth groups a short time later. It became more of a requirement rather than a spiritual guidance and I just didn't feel a connection to any of it. For the remainder of high school and about five or six years after I just went on with my life just the way I started. I was nice to others, I never touched drugs, alchohol or smoking. (Believe it or not I've never had any alchohol, not even champagne at my wedding; it was sparkling juice)
I still looked up topics, researched things, learned at an accelerated rate; and most of all I began to seriously question my connection to religion, or lack thereof. I began to ask questions, HARD questions, and in each instance all I recieved was circle talk or answers that seemed like baseless loopholes that didn't actually answer anything or even try to.
It was at this time, some time within the last six or seven years or so that I looked hard at myself and determined that I in fact was an athiest. I am not an aggressive person by any means, but I have developed quite the affinity for defending my point of view because of the bigoted view of religion against anyone who doesn't believe as they do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fast forward to present day, within the last month in fact. I am a brand new father of a baby boy, a first for either of us and I am faced with a very difficult decision and potential life-altering points of view.
I began thinking very hard about how I was raised and all of the trouble I went through and how I could prevent this heartache with my son. The first and easiest fix is that I have a job where I am home every night; nothing is worse than missing a father on your birthday 75% of your life. As I reflected on my mother's techniques of raising me I realized that she did something for me that very few parents do anymore, she let me decide for myself, ON MY OWN, and in my own time what I wanted to believe in. I was not indoctrinated, forced to attend church, constantly preached to nor was I threatened with eternal hellfire if I didn't do what I was told to by "God." I was instead taught the same thing since birth, the Golden Rule. I treat others the way I expect to be treated, with respect and kindness.
I was given the choice of researching it for myself and BIG SUPRISE, I found religion to be the disease and control mechanism that it has been for thousands of years. My questions have never been answered, instead I only get answered with questions, Logical Fallacies and Ad Hominems in attempt to diverge the burden of proof away from those making the claims of a deity. I get people quoting me scripture, yet when I ask why they OMIT passages that advocate slavery, rape and murder either to please "God" or by his direction, I simply get more re-direction and eventually cop-out answers when they are backed into a corner with no proof and no more dodging mechanisms. It's funny how so many theists claim that "God is Love" and you aren't a "True Christian" if you don't do this and this and this and this........Convieniently placed loopholes for typical baseless theist claims.
My wife's family is very religious as was my wife until a few years ago. I did not convert her however, She was indoctrinated as a child; She was forced to attend church, to pray all the time and was told she would go to hell if she didn't do exactly as "God" commanded. I specifically stated that I will let her believe whatever she wants to believe and I won't stop her nor try to influence her. Through busy schedules she stopped attending church and on her own she began to open her eyes to the overwhelming negative influence that religion has over the individual. She attended a few sessions after being gone for several months and the first thing that she said to me when she came home the first time is "what a load of crap!". She couldn't believe that she would question what she had been taught for decades, but through her own admission she began to question what she had been told. It was at this time that she started asking me why I believed the way I do and I asked her the same questions that I do of every theist, and so far none of them have been able to be answered, nor could she answer them. Currently she is "on the fence" and I think she is a bit more cynnical about organized religion, but her decision is her own.
Regarding my son however, this is where it gets tricky. I fully intend to keep my child from attending church, praying and even reading the cursed "bible" until he is old enough to comprehend and research it on his own. I will not indoctrinate my son with threats of hellfire and I will not push my ideas on him until he develops past the point of major influence. When he can stand as a young man and ask the same questions of himself and of religion that I have, then I will have serious discussions with him about both sides of the coin, objectively of course.
The interesting part of being athiest in the United States is that we are the most hated people in America. We are oppressed and ridiculed because of our requirements for definitive proof that cannot yet be provided and yet theists feel no guilt what so ever at aggressively going after children (and I'm sure eventually my son) to get them to start praying, attending church.......OR ELSE. I will not have my child baptised and I don't intend on subjecting him to family members who try to circumvent my parenting decisions for their own selfish beliefs.
It's very difficult to determine how to continue knowing full well the hurdles that both he and I face in the future because of my lack of belief and not following with the rest of the sheep. I understand that although I don't believe that if he eventually chooses to that I will accept him no matter what, but I think the best choice is to give him the chance that I was given that my wife was not:
The choice to believe, without threats, and at an intelligence level where he can defend himself instead of me doing it for him.
King
I have also never been taught RELIGION.
Coming from a family where my mother was religious but said very little to nothing about it and a father that was gone more than he was home, I was left to my own devices to determine where my life was going and what I should do with it. Having grown up in many different states because of moving I learned to adapt to changing conditions on the fly. I started school in Texas and was too smart for my class. I was doing fifth and sixth grade work in first grade; I was hyperactive and the only way for my parents to handle me was to medicate me. Instead of recognizing my need for more information and at a faster pace, they instead slowed me down so that I would blend in with the rest of the world. I was made to become a sheep against my will; something that would neve be repeated. I knew from a very early age that I was different than the rest of my classmates because I was naturally artistic and I grew extremely fast. We moved from Texas to Idaho where I lived in a log cabin with no power, running water, electricity or plumbing. We essentially drifted back to the 1800's and you know what? I enjoyed it; it was one of the most entertaining times in my life. I was one with nature and I needed nothing but a couple good friends, my imagination and a good survival knife.
Having only lived in Idaho for two years, we moved to Washington State where I would spend the rest of my time in one school through graduation. Seventh grade was a very difficult time for me because I separated from the class yet again so far that I could never recover. I was the one that the school picked on, I was called names, beat up and almost killed once by a student some years later who thought it would be funny to try and run me down on my bicycle with his farm truck. Had I not jumped a ditch into a wooden path he might have hit me.
For every event in my life that took me farther and farther into seclusion I had two different points of guidance from my parents. My father, when he was home once or twice a month was that I should just do what I wanted to do and if they push, push back. My mother on the other hand told me that I should ignore them and just concentrate on myself. Since both of them gave similar advice, I simply let things happen as they did; often times to my detrement and with bruises to prove it. This continued up until the day I graduated high school and left that town. The interesting part of this backstory is that during this obviously traumatic and depressive state in which I spent YEARS, not once did my mother mention "God", "Jesus" or try and force me to read the bible, attend church (which she never did either despite believing) or any other form of religious influence.
During my teenage years I decided to follow my friends to church on Sunday and even attended nightly youth group meetings during the week on Thursdays. I don't remember my exact age, but I know at some point the pastor asked me if I wanted to accept Jesus into my life and I figured "what the hell," no pun intended. I followed the steps, I was a good kid, albeit a recluse; in either case I was a stereotypical christian kid for the period of about two years. During that entire time I just didn't seem to understand why everyone around me pressed so hard to believe when my own mother let me figure it out on my own; some years later I would come to understand.
I stopped attending church after awhile and eventually stopped attending youth groups a short time later. It became more of a requirement rather than a spiritual guidance and I just didn't feel a connection to any of it. For the remainder of high school and about five or six years after I just went on with my life just the way I started. I was nice to others, I never touched drugs, alchohol or smoking. (Believe it or not I've never had any alchohol, not even champagne at my wedding; it was sparkling juice)
I still looked up topics, researched things, learned at an accelerated rate; and most of all I began to seriously question my connection to religion, or lack thereof. I began to ask questions, HARD questions, and in each instance all I recieved was circle talk or answers that seemed like baseless loopholes that didn't actually answer anything or even try to.
It was at this time, some time within the last six or seven years or so that I looked hard at myself and determined that I in fact was an athiest. I am not an aggressive person by any means, but I have developed quite the affinity for defending my point of view because of the bigoted view of religion against anyone who doesn't believe as they do.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fast forward to present day, within the last month in fact. I am a brand new father of a baby boy, a first for either of us and I am faced with a very difficult decision and potential life-altering points of view.
I began thinking very hard about how I was raised and all of the trouble I went through and how I could prevent this heartache with my son. The first and easiest fix is that I have a job where I am home every night; nothing is worse than missing a father on your birthday 75% of your life. As I reflected on my mother's techniques of raising me I realized that she did something for me that very few parents do anymore, she let me decide for myself, ON MY OWN, and in my own time what I wanted to believe in. I was not indoctrinated, forced to attend church, constantly preached to nor was I threatened with eternal hellfire if I didn't do what I was told to by "God." I was instead taught the same thing since birth, the Golden Rule. I treat others the way I expect to be treated, with respect and kindness.
I was given the choice of researching it for myself and BIG SUPRISE, I found religion to be the disease and control mechanism that it has been for thousands of years. My questions have never been answered, instead I only get answered with questions, Logical Fallacies and Ad Hominems in attempt to diverge the burden of proof away from those making the claims of a deity. I get people quoting me scripture, yet when I ask why they OMIT passages that advocate slavery, rape and murder either to please "God" or by his direction, I simply get more re-direction and eventually cop-out answers when they are backed into a corner with no proof and no more dodging mechanisms. It's funny how so many theists claim that "God is Love" and you aren't a "True Christian" if you don't do this and this and this and this........Convieniently placed loopholes for typical baseless theist claims.
My wife's family is very religious as was my wife until a few years ago. I did not convert her however, She was indoctrinated as a child; She was forced to attend church, to pray all the time and was told she would go to hell if she didn't do exactly as "God" commanded. I specifically stated that I will let her believe whatever she wants to believe and I won't stop her nor try to influence her. Through busy schedules she stopped attending church and on her own she began to open her eyes to the overwhelming negative influence that religion has over the individual. She attended a few sessions after being gone for several months and the first thing that she said to me when she came home the first time is "what a load of crap!". She couldn't believe that she would question what she had been taught for decades, but through her own admission she began to question what she had been told. It was at this time that she started asking me why I believed the way I do and I asked her the same questions that I do of every theist, and so far none of them have been able to be answered, nor could she answer them. Currently she is "on the fence" and I think she is a bit more cynnical about organized religion, but her decision is her own.
Regarding my son however, this is where it gets tricky. I fully intend to keep my child from attending church, praying and even reading the cursed "bible" until he is old enough to comprehend and research it on his own. I will not indoctrinate my son with threats of hellfire and I will not push my ideas on him until he develops past the point of major influence. When he can stand as a young man and ask the same questions of himself and of religion that I have, then I will have serious discussions with him about both sides of the coin, objectively of course.
The interesting part of being athiest in the United States is that we are the most hated people in America. We are oppressed and ridiculed because of our requirements for definitive proof that cannot yet be provided and yet theists feel no guilt what so ever at aggressively going after children (and I'm sure eventually my son) to get them to start praying, attending church.......OR ELSE. I will not have my child baptised and I don't intend on subjecting him to family members who try to circumvent my parenting decisions for their own selfish beliefs.
It's very difficult to determine how to continue knowing full well the hurdles that both he and I face in the future because of my lack of belief and not following with the rest of the sheep. I understand that although I don't believe that if he eventually chooses to that I will accept him no matter what, but I think the best choice is to give him the chance that I was given that my wife was not:
The choice to believe, without threats, and at an intelligence level where he can defend himself instead of me doing it for him.
King
Hi, I have 3 grown kids and they were raised without any type of religious upbringing, like your parents I wanted them to be free from the Baptist
faith I grew up in and was traumatized over for a good part of my life.. and to think for themselves. My kids turned out pretty well, they all went to
college, have jobs and families are moral and decent and no one went to prison, hehe.
I think at least for me, it's about teaching your children to use common sense and good morals, do unto others as you would have them do unto you..I got that from Sunday school, so I guess all those years of spending my Sundays in Church helped me pass on that little tidbit..good post SnF cheers coco
I think at least for me, it's about teaching your children to use common sense and good morals, do unto others as you would have them do unto you..I got that from Sunday school, so I guess all those years of spending my Sundays in Church helped me pass on that little tidbit..good post SnF cheers coco
Your son is in good hands. My parents were a lot like yours were. They never told me what to believe or how to think. I was allowed the freedom to
define that myself. I became an independent but caring person that sees the validity of every action, culture, and way of being.
I remember when I was a kid that I was absolutely tortured in school, because I did not accept Jesus Christ as my "savior". I eventually learned there is a difference between "Christ" and "Christianity". Christ himself was an excellent and enlightened teacher for his time. To me, Christ was beautiful. Christianity with its fear inducing tatics is ugly.
Thank you, thank you for not forcing anything on your child. It would actually be neat if you exposed him to all the different religions, philosophies, and sciences/knowledge. That way, he will see all the diversity in the world.
I am not atheist but agnostic. So far, I have never victimized by my religious countrymen as a whole. I just roll my eyes with the idiotic and uneducated comments people make about things they know nothing about, but then again religion doesn't exactly train you to look deep into things.
I remember when I was a kid that I was absolutely tortured in school, because I did not accept Jesus Christ as my "savior". I eventually learned there is a difference between "Christ" and "Christianity". Christ himself was an excellent and enlightened teacher for his time. To me, Christ was beautiful. Christianity with its fear inducing tatics is ugly.
Thank you, thank you for not forcing anything on your child. It would actually be neat if you exposed him to all the different religions, philosophies, and sciences/knowledge. That way, he will see all the diversity in the world.
I am not atheist but agnostic. So far, I have never victimized by my religious countrymen as a whole. I just roll my eyes with the idiotic and uneducated comments people make about things they know nothing about, but then again religion doesn't exactly train you to look deep into things.
edit on 9-4-2011 by DavinciThales because: (no reason given)
edit on 9-4-2011 by DavinciThales because: (no reason
given)
reply to post by DavinciThales
Even though I am a devout atheist until proven otherwise, that is exactly what I'm going to do. I am not going to completely shelter him from religion and condemn them as nutcases even though that is my general belief.
I instead will as I stated before give him both sides of the coin. I will explain to him why religious people believe as they do, but I will encourage him to investigate for himself to find the answers. I can say with 99.9998% certainty that without "God" coming down and showing up on the lawn at Yankee Stadium and saying hello during the world series that I will never believe any of the religious nonsense.
The funny thing is that I am not against the idea that Jesus was probably a real man, and a teacher at that. I am against the bible and the 2,0000 year old "Phone Game" that has perpetrated professional religion. If I remember correctly when asked where someone can find the kingdom of heaven Jesus said: "Do not look here or there because you won't find it, you must look within yourself."
I'm not sure if that is an accurate quote, but if you strip away all of the hellfire and professional clergy/population controllers then you will have a simple idea that heaven is within each individual and you create it, or live in your own hell. This has nothing to do with a literal place, and even though the "Devil" wasn't a big part of the bible until AFTER Dante's Inferno was first published, people still assert that heaven and hell are a viable and real place. Whether that be physical or spiritual, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support these claims, not in science or in the bible.
There is however a very wise proposition in suggesting that heaven is within us all by our own actions. Our morals and beliefs dictate our actions. Unfortunately those who are "faithful" overlook the obvious in favor of what they were forced as a child and therefor discount evidence towards logical and opposing views.
King
Even though I am a devout atheist until proven otherwise, that is exactly what I'm going to do. I am not going to completely shelter him from religion and condemn them as nutcases even though that is my general belief.
I instead will as I stated before give him both sides of the coin. I will explain to him why religious people believe as they do, but I will encourage him to investigate for himself to find the answers. I can say with 99.9998% certainty that without "God" coming down and showing up on the lawn at Yankee Stadium and saying hello during the world series that I will never believe any of the religious nonsense.
The funny thing is that I am not against the idea that Jesus was probably a real man, and a teacher at that. I am against the bible and the 2,0000 year old "Phone Game" that has perpetrated professional religion. If I remember correctly when asked where someone can find the kingdom of heaven Jesus said: "Do not look here or there because you won't find it, you must look within yourself."
I'm not sure if that is an accurate quote, but if you strip away all of the hellfire and professional clergy/population controllers then you will have a simple idea that heaven is within each individual and you create it, or live in your own hell. This has nothing to do with a literal place, and even though the "Devil" wasn't a big part of the bible until AFTER Dante's Inferno was first published, people still assert that heaven and hell are a viable and real place. Whether that be physical or spiritual, there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support these claims, not in science or in the bible.
There is however a very wise proposition in suggesting that heaven is within us all by our own actions. Our morals and beliefs dictate our actions. Unfortunately those who are "faithful" overlook the obvious in favor of what they were forced as a child and therefor discount evidence towards logical and opposing views.
King
I really like your post and plan to respond in more detail tomorrow, but I can say that it is not difficult to raise a child in an atheist (or
semi-religious) home.
My wife and I don't go to church, although I was raised a catholic, i too find it a joke. At one point in time, it may have served a purpose to set an example to the masses, but I just see the churches as a corporation anymore. What do they sell? whatever it is you want...sense of community, something to believe in, and for a lot of people a social network.
Anyway, getting back to the topic - I don't object to my kids going too church with their friends every once in a while, and at this point I believe they are more comforted thinking there is a god, but until they come out and ask me point blank if I believe, I probably wont bring it up. (They are under 10)
My wife and I don't go to church, although I was raised a catholic, i too find it a joke. At one point in time, it may have served a purpose to set an example to the masses, but I just see the churches as a corporation anymore. What do they sell? whatever it is you want...sense of community, something to believe in, and for a lot of people a social network.
Anyway, getting back to the topic - I don't object to my kids going too church with their friends every once in a while, and at this point I believe they are more comforted thinking there is a god, but until they come out and ask me point blank if I believe, I probably wont bring it up. (They are under 10)
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
As usual, the atheist over-dramatizes Christianity as a tool of controlling weak minded people. So one-sided its ridiculous. You say atheism is a personal choice but how is it it one when there is a right and wrong answer?
Is it totally outside of your understanding that people often become pastors because they think its the best way for them to *help other people*... they think its the best way they can focus their caring nature?
Are there people who use Christianity as a tool of control? Well, look at Mike Huckabee. Christianity didn't have the level of violence he needed to obtain full control over people, so he went into politics. Clearly a control freak. But if you analyze the personalities of good number of pastors you quickly find they are actually not obsessed with controlling other people. What they are obsessed with is HELPING other people. Having only gone to church as a teenager and not knowing any pastors, you don't understand that.
The most important thing to know about logic is that it rests on a foundation of emotion... reasonless signals in your brain operating on the concept of intuition. Your brain sets your goals. Logic is a tool of your brain to achieve goals. However, your brain also has a very wide variety of other abilities aside from logic to achieve goals such as reflex reactions, "sleeping on it", "feeling it out", "acting on instinct",etc.
Why is it most atheists are social outcasts? Think about that carefully. They don't have a complete scope of intelligence. You are missing the emotional intelligence that other people have. Your teen years were a failure in part because you didn't develop all the areas of intelligence needed for success. Not to say you could not have done it.. only that you didn't. People who focus on developing the full spectrum of reasoning... both logic and emotional... and who understand both are valid, are going to tend to believe God exists.
Once you understand the holistic approach to learning, rather than trying to develop your life into something it isn't... a purely logical robotic program, then you'll find your understanding of the universe actually increases dramatically, contrary to the person who somehow believes logic is king would believe.
As usual, the atheist over-dramatizes Christianity as a tool of controlling weak minded people. So one-sided its ridiculous. You say atheism is a personal choice but how is it it one when there is a right and wrong answer?
Is it totally outside of your understanding that people often become pastors because they think its the best way for them to *help other people*... they think its the best way they can focus their caring nature?
Are there people who use Christianity as a tool of control? Well, look at Mike Huckabee. Christianity didn't have the level of violence he needed to obtain full control over people, so he went into politics. Clearly a control freak. But if you analyze the personalities of good number of pastors you quickly find they are actually not obsessed with controlling other people. What they are obsessed with is HELPING other people. Having only gone to church as a teenager and not knowing any pastors, you don't understand that.
The most important thing to know about logic is that it rests on a foundation of emotion... reasonless signals in your brain operating on the concept of intuition. Your brain sets your goals. Logic is a tool of your brain to achieve goals. However, your brain also has a very wide variety of other abilities aside from logic to achieve goals such as reflex reactions, "sleeping on it", "feeling it out", "acting on instinct",etc.
Why is it most atheists are social outcasts? Think about that carefully. They don't have a complete scope of intelligence. You are missing the emotional intelligence that other people have. Your teen years were a failure in part because you didn't develop all the areas of intelligence needed for success. Not to say you could not have done it.. only that you didn't. People who focus on developing the full spectrum of reasoning... both logic and emotional... and who understand both are valid, are going to tend to believe God exists.
Once you understand the holistic approach to learning, rather than trying to develop your life into something it isn't... a purely logical robotic program, then you'll find your understanding of the universe actually increases dramatically, contrary to the person who somehow believes logic is king would believe.
edit on 9-4-2011 by civilchallenger because: (no reason given)
Religion traumatized me at an early age. The main message I got from the sermon's was we should be grateful for death and to enter the next world. I
could see the morbidity even at a young age. It's the kind of sermon that is fitting for a Nazarene church, which historically attracts the
impoverished, downtrodden class.
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
I wasn't raised with a religion, either. My dad was mildly atheistic. My mom started out Catholic but her dad took her out when she was still young.
When I got older one of my biggest questions was: Why do so many people participate in some religious practice? I concluded that there must be something people need or want that is provided by religions.
Personal uses of religions:
1) People use religious beliefs to help them explain phenomena they don't understand, including a wide range of spiritual phenomena.
2) People use religions to help create a local sense of community. It serves as an excuse for people to get together and get to know each other. It gives people something to agree about and talk about.
3) Many people use their religion to establish moral guidelines for themselves and others.
4) People use religion to reflect their very real sense of the reality of eternity and of a creator. Many of us strongly sense that life was created and was meant to last forever in some form. Religious beliefs give us various mythologies that align with that awareness.
Social uses of religion:
1) Certain teachings regarding personal identity and social interaction have traditionally been attached to religious beliefs, though it has been demonstrated that they can stand independently. Buddhism is an example of a teaching which can stand independently of any belief in God or gods but is commonly thought of as a religion.
2) The core beliefs that were taught by the post-ancient great religious leaders have been seen as having a civilizing influence in the field of human relations.
3) There have always been personalities on this planet who were unwilling or unable to live within the limitations of traditional ideas of morality. Seeing the power of religious belief, they have always tried to co-opt religious systems for their own purposes. Most sensible people would consider those purposes to be evil. If you want to confuse a population, and find a way to excuse despicable acts, incorporating your ideology and practices into the local religion is a great way to accomplish this. This has been done routinely down through the ages and has left most religions with a scrambled mess of scriptures that usually inspire nothing much higher than endless argument. Power structures are incorporated into most religions and religious practices that have no basis in spiritual truth and should properly be seen as entirely political in form and purpose. "Lord" is basically a political word, not a religious one.
For people to fight among themselves over their religious beliefs is highly desired by those who wish to dominate us. Spiritual awareness and religious beliefs are basically personal and non-authoritarian. In the ancient past those who wished to dominate saw that religious or spiritual development tended to lead to a freer-thinking and freer-acting population. And so they found ways to poison and undermine these movements and teachings. The result has been one of the high ironies of human experience. The keys to ultimate freedom lie in our understandings of the true nature of the spiritual. And so that attempt to understand has been under constant attack by those who can't stand the idea of spiritual freedom, and our way has been confused and blocked by calling it "religion" and hiding its core truths from us.
I wasn't raised with a religion, either. My dad was mildly atheistic. My mom started out Catholic but her dad took her out when she was still young.
When I got older one of my biggest questions was: Why do so many people participate in some religious practice? I concluded that there must be something people need or want that is provided by religions.
Personal uses of religions:
1) People use religious beliefs to help them explain phenomena they don't understand, including a wide range of spiritual phenomena.
2) People use religions to help create a local sense of community. It serves as an excuse for people to get together and get to know each other. It gives people something to agree about and talk about.
3) Many people use their religion to establish moral guidelines for themselves and others.
4) People use religion to reflect their very real sense of the reality of eternity and of a creator. Many of us strongly sense that life was created and was meant to last forever in some form. Religious beliefs give us various mythologies that align with that awareness.
Social uses of religion:
1) Certain teachings regarding personal identity and social interaction have traditionally been attached to religious beliefs, though it has been demonstrated that they can stand independently. Buddhism is an example of a teaching which can stand independently of any belief in God or gods but is commonly thought of as a religion.
2) The core beliefs that were taught by the post-ancient great religious leaders have been seen as having a civilizing influence in the field of human relations.
3) There have always been personalities on this planet who were unwilling or unable to live within the limitations of traditional ideas of morality. Seeing the power of religious belief, they have always tried to co-opt religious systems for their own purposes. Most sensible people would consider those purposes to be evil. If you want to confuse a population, and find a way to excuse despicable acts, incorporating your ideology and practices into the local religion is a great way to accomplish this. This has been done routinely down through the ages and has left most religions with a scrambled mess of scriptures that usually inspire nothing much higher than endless argument. Power structures are incorporated into most religions and religious practices that have no basis in spiritual truth and should properly be seen as entirely political in form and purpose. "Lord" is basically a political word, not a religious one.
For people to fight among themselves over their religious beliefs is highly desired by those who wish to dominate us. Spiritual awareness and religious beliefs are basically personal and non-authoritarian. In the ancient past those who wished to dominate saw that religious or spiritual development tended to lead to a freer-thinking and freer-acting population. And so they found ways to poison and undermine these movements and teachings. The result has been one of the high ironies of human experience. The keys to ultimate freedom lie in our understandings of the true nature of the spiritual. And so that attempt to understand has been under constant attack by those who can't stand the idea of spiritual freedom, and our way has been confused and blocked by calling it "religion" and hiding its core truths from us.
As usual, the atheist over-dramatizes Christianity as a tool of controlling weak minded people. So one-sided its ridiculous. You say atheism is a personal choice but how is it it one when there is a right and wrong answer?
Wow, I can't begin to describe how wrong that statement is. Christianity is only my example, not my sole direction for demanding proof before I give up logic in favor of fairy tales. Christianity WAS AND IS used as a control mechanism for the population, why else do you need money? Wasn't it your savior that said not to worry about money and concentrate on being a good person?
And why is it that almost every religious person I meet or speak with has to deal in absolutes? I never once said that there is NO "God", I merely state that there is no proof of one so I don't believe the BS you are trying to force down my throat. Athiesm is a personal choice, REGARDLESS of right or wrong. I am asking for definitive proof to which you cannot provide, therefore there is not right or wrong answer, there only is what you can and can't prove.
Is it totally outside of your understanding that people often become pastors because they think its the best way for them to *help other people*... they think its the best way they can focus their caring nature?
Again you skew my posts in favor of your aggressive theistic nature. Never did I say that the pastor was trying to condemn me, nor did I say that all pastors are bad people. But answer me this, is there any other organization on the planet that advocates the raping of children and the covering up of the crimes? The last time I checked, it was a crime to sexually assault children in this country and many others, yet when it happens the catholic church's way of dealing with it is not to condemn the individual and renounce him as not a "true christian," instead they relocate them and "handle it internally." You draw assumptions because you are told that atheists are the worst kind of people on the planet, even over your pedophile preists and pastors. Not all pastors are bad, make sure you save that quote for your next attack, and I can understand far more than you can imagine; do you know I've been to college three times? I'm about ready to get another degree this time next year, so what does that say for my intelligence?
Are there people who use Christianity as a tool of control?
Sure there are, but considering I wasn't directly targeting your religion and instead was speaking of all religion in general with brief references to christianity from my personal experience, I can list a few for you:
1. Charles Manson and "The family" - I don't really need to explain this one.
2. Joseph Di Mambro - Order of the Solar Temple - Joseph ordered the killing of his three month old son because he was the anti-christ and a few days later a "last supper" was performed where Joseph and twelve of his followers commited suicide. Soon after that another fifty people or so in his organization killed themselves in various ways. This was in France, but it still followed the christian doctrine of the bible.
3. David Koresh and the Branch Dividians - Again, no explanation necessary on this one. WACO
4. Marshall Applewhite and Heaven's Gate - Once again, followers of the christian bible, all commited suicide. HaleBopp
5. Jim Jones - Jonestown Jim Jones and 917 people died because he was instructed by "God" to do so. One of the most famous and worst events in religious following.
6. L. Ron Hubbard - Scientology - While this isn't specifically christian, this is a perfect example to your question because L. Ron Hubbard was quoted as saying that the best way to make money was to start a religion. He also said that it was the best way to avoid paying taxes.
We all know that Televangelists and Evangalists are completely harmless and just want to "Help" too right? Since when did Jesus ask for money? Last time I checked the bible he healed people for free. There are far more than I've listed here, but for the sake of writing a book as a response, I'll leave it at that for now.
But if you analyze the personalities of good number of pastors you quickly find they are actually not obsessed with controlling other people. What they are obsessed with is HELPING other people. Having only gone to church as a teenager and not knowing any pastors, you don't understand that.
Again you fail, not only in understanding my post but in the fact that you have no idea about who I know then or now. For your information, and to re-state what you obviously chose to ignore, I attended church as well as youth group. I went to events and did all the things the church did. I was a christian for all intensive purposes for two years. Just because I was a teenager doesn't mean "I wasn't doing it right." A common cliche argument if I ever heard one. I knew several other pastors and I'm even friends with the one from my wife's old church, the one her family still attends. My wife cleans their church for extra money on Thursdays. I can tell you that he is a good person, but some of the former pastors I knew on the west coast I wouldn't let anyone near simply because of how aggressive they were. To give you an example I had one of the pastors actually come up to me while I was listening to a Meat Loaf CD (Bat out of hell) and told me "I think that's evil, I think you should BURN IT." Sounds a lot like 1955 right? I didn't list every experience I ever had within that two year period or since then, nor all of the religious people i've met that are utterly horrid as individuals because that would just take too freaking long.
The most important thing to know about logic is that it rests on a foundation of emotion... reasonless signals in your brain operating on the concept of intuition. Your brain sets your goals. Logic is a tool of your brain to achieve goals. However, your brain also has a very wide variety of other abilities aside from logic to achieve goals such as reflex reactions, "sleeping on it", "feeling it out", "acting on instinct",etc.
Wow, I'm not sure what realm you stepped out of, but the last time I checked, logic has nothing to do with emotion. In case you weren't paying attention in school, here is the Definition of logic. Your cliche's are not a valid description of logic nor is it a definitive example of a connection between rational thought and emotion. In fact the two are inexplicably connected like the opposite posts of a battery. If you study martial arts you would know that you must keep emotions in check in order to think clearly. This is why when people get angry they do stupid crap, they don't think before they act. They are reacting to a chemical response in the brain instead of a completely different part of the brain that controls reason. However this would be arguing semantics and is best reserved for a different thread thank you.
Why is it most atheists are social outcasts?
That is actually one of the easiest questions to answer, because theists make it their personal mission to condemn and threaten atheists because we choose to question your faith; it says so in YOUR BIBLE. How DARE we question what you can't prove? How can we have the AUDACITY to ask why when there is nothing to back up your story besides a contradictory storybook written by men almost a hundred years after the events that were supposed to take place? Yeah, how could we do such a thing to question you. [Yes, that is sarcastic, just so you know]
They don't have a complete scope of intelligence. You are missing the emotional intelligence that other people have.
Really? REALLY?? Were you asleep when you posted that? The last time I checked, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the most intelligent people on the planet are......you guessed it.....atheists. Scientists, inventors, many famous names too vast to list in this little paragraph. As far as Emotional Intelligence, UH, that's new to me because I was pretty sure that religion relied on emotional manipulation to initiate blind faith. You prosper because you instill FEAR in children and adults if they don't do what their told. Then once you have them in your clutches you tell them that you are "good" and all about "love" all while cherry-picking the passages from your "good book" to support your story.
Some of the best advice I ever heard was (and I wish I could remember who said it, I think it was Dawkins):
"If you want to turn someone away from religion, have them read the bible.....ALL OF IT."
Your teen years were a failure in part because you didn't develop all the areas of intelligence needed for success. Not to say you could not have done it.. only that you didn't.
Again you completely ignore my post and take what I say out of context to fit your agenda; try again. I said in my OP that I was far more intelligent that the rest of my class, and I have been for years. I had to be put on medication because I was doing schoolwork that was way over my head. I am now almost finished with my bachelor's degree for Game Art and Design. I am a very good artist and I've been drawing since the age of 5. You know why? Because I would finish my schoolwork so fast that I would sit and draw in class. I could only do that for so long before I got so bored I had to get up and move around. I was put on MEDICATION because they didn't know what to do with me. Only after about three years of this did a psychiatrist finally come to one of my classes and realize that I was bored and needed a challenge. My IQ tests were borderline genious and I scored in the top 1% for my ASVAB test for the Navy out of high school. Don't talk to me about intelligence. I am far more intelligent than you could ever realize but I don't speak like this because it makes me sound egotistical and I hate for people to get the wrong idea about who I am.
As far as my teen years being a failure, you don't know much about psychology and having TWO PARENTS around. My father was only home a day or two a month, he was on the road all the time. I had no male figure to really support me or for me to talk to, so I turned inward to protect myself and that is why I was picked on so badly. I can guarantee you if I my father were there to support me, I would have gotten into a couple of fights to stick up for myself and I wouldn't have been a victim. I know this and I understand it, too bad you don't pay attention.
People who focus on developing the full spectrum of reasoning... both logic and emotional... and who understand both are valid, are going to tend to believe God exists.
People who focus on emotional and logical development are often balanced, from a philisophical standpoint. If you take away logic, THEN you have someone who believes in "God." You don't really believe in a talking snake, a man living inside a whale and a small boat that carried millions of animals (without enough genetic diversity to repopulate by the way) for so long that they didn't kill each other, or have anything to eat. I won't even mention having no windows and the feces problem. But I guess if I take away logic I could probably believe.
Once you understand the holistic approach to learning, rather than trying to develop your life into something it isn't... a purely logical robotic program, then you'll find your understanding of the universe actually increases dramatically, contrary to the person who somehow believes logic is king would believe
Interesting that you seem to think I'm not emotionally developed. With the experiences I've had as a child, the lack of a father figure for almost my entire life and the constant hurdles/pressure of being smarter than almost everyone you meet, you'd think that the "logical" thing to happen next is for me to be another Columbine participant for a shooting rampage. However I am very emotionally balanced. In fact my lack of religion helps me objectively look at things without getting emotionally involved. This has helped me enourmously when it comes to helping other people. I still have empathy, anger, love, joy, sadness and all the other emotions you do; I however can choose when to let them affect me instead of just believing anything someone tells me. Again, martial arts and philosophy are my two favorite subjects of study regarding logical and emotional balance. I think that if you actually let go of some of that chip on your shoulder for my "daring not to believe" and instead focused half of that energy you used to attempt to tear me apart and actually pay attention to those around you, you might find that atheists are people too.
Atheists are subjected to ridicule because we choose not to conform to the ridiculous, and because of that we are condemned. Well, I would rather be condemned in your eyes and open to new ideas and information than to believe obsurdities that aren't scientifically possible and call them "Intelligent Design."
I had really hoped that by explaining some of my background I could avoid the obvious attacks that I anticipated to come with this thread, but alas I was again proven wrong by the common theist who makes it their personal mission to mis-represent, mis-lead, twist and outright derail honest questions in the name of blind faith of a "God" you can't provide evidence for.
King
edit on 9-4-2011 by Kingalbrect79 because: HTML bracket
A christian won't "hate on" someone for not being a christian. It's just that we believe that Christianity is "the only way" and it pains us to see
people blatantly refuse/refute christianity. What other religion claims to be "the only way to the father?" None, that I know of. Jesus lived a
perfect life and was used as a blood sacrafice for all of the worlds unrighteousness.
As far as controlling society goes, that is just bogus. I don't know where people get that idea. I mean, the 10 Commandments are pretty basic moral guidlines and I don't see any mass manipulation going on in that area...Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness against your neighbor (im pretty sure this is more specific than just lying; this is lying in a malicious way to hurt someone. sometimes lies are necessary to protect people, etc.)
Why WOULDN'T one believe? Take a look around, at the universe, at the world, and be amazed with how everything just "kinda works out."
He set the stars in the sky, He set the planets in motion, He put our little rock called Earth in just the absolute perfect place to facilitate life. He gave us a conciousness and the ability to experience this thing we call "life." He also gave us laws, which aren't really ALL that hard to follow, and most of them are just part of being a decent human being.
I mean, this is pretty basic, straightforward stuff...
As far as controlling society goes, that is just bogus. I don't know where people get that idea. I mean, the 10 Commandments are pretty basic moral guidlines and I don't see any mass manipulation going on in that area...Don't kill, don't steal, don't bear false witness against your neighbor (im pretty sure this is more specific than just lying; this is lying in a malicious way to hurt someone. sometimes lies are necessary to protect people, etc.)
Why WOULDN'T one believe? Take a look around, at the universe, at the world, and be amazed with how everything just "kinda works out."
He set the stars in the sky, He set the planets in motion, He put our little rock called Earth in just the absolute perfect place to facilitate life. He gave us a conciousness and the ability to experience this thing we call "life." He also gave us laws, which aren't really ALL that hard to follow, and most of them are just part of being a decent human being.
I mean, this is pretty basic, straightforward stuff...
edit on 9-4-2011 by graphuto because: Add
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
You have a personal vendetta against Christianity. Your parents did not. The situations are not comparable. So no, your child will not have the same experience as you did. And the reason you detect agitation from me is because I find it annoying you have a personal vendetta against Christians and pastors in general. But I disagree I personally attacked you in my previous post.
Your assumptions that pastors are control freak child molesters are baseless. No merit. Show the statistics. Look them up. Based on the people I know who are religious, you'll find they by and large are not control freaks and adopt Christianity and become pastors as a way of *helping* others. I'm annoyed by your OP because I think it is based in ignorance of the statistics. You think I'm a nutty Christian? Show me the statistics showing Christian pastors have joined their profession to control others, rather than help them, and I'll join you in bashing them. I can join you.
And once again, logic is based on a framework of emotion. The most clear example of this is theft. A fact of life is that the risk/return ratio on stealing things makes it such that it is more logical to steal things. That is why people steal things in the real world. But despite that, most atheists seem to delude them selves into believing that logical reasoning is the guiding force behind their decision not ever to steal things. No, stealing gives them a bad feeling inside and that is why they don't steal. It has nothing to do with logic which would surely have them stealing lots of things over the course of their lifetime!
Every piece of logic in your mind rests on a foundation of emotion. What do you want Kingalbrect79? What is it that you want in life? If you tell me any random thing you want, I can show you the logical tools you are using to get that thing... and then the emotional foundation for that desire!
Example: Do you want the good looking lady? She may want a guy with looks. She may want a guy with intelligence. So you need a job. You want a job? Then you need an education. You will find that logic like calculus, or maybe memorization exercises, helps you get the education you need to get the job to get the lady. And why do you want the lady? Logical reason or emotional reasons?
Example 2: Do you want to know the best way to solve the a maze you found in a newspaper? Well that may be based based on a desire to enhance your problem-solving skills. And that may be based on a desire to solve the problem of getting the biggest house and fanciest car, which are emotional desires.
Human beings are just animals, and logic is just a tool we use to achieve our emotional desires. So yes, logic rests on a core foundation of emotion. The fact of the matter is that for every piece of logic in your brain, you have an underlying emotional desire which is merely using that logic as a tool to fulfill its desires. Logic is merely a tool... one among many... to fulfill emotional desires.
I won't lie and say I don't find atheists agitating. They agitate me. But the reason that is has nothing to do with my religion. In many ways the world would be a better place if everyone were an atheist. Rather, it has to do with the fact that I was an atheist and tried to use logic as the primary tool for doing whatever it was I wanted to do. Big mistake. Once intuition and emotion are warmly welcomed into the reasoning process, life makes complete sense. You can't over-ride your basic emotional desires with any level of logic. Logic is sometimes a superior decision-making tool. Other times emotion is a superior decision-making tool!
Case in point: you touch something hot, and your hand draws back reflexively... using dumb old animal instinct. If that were to instead be converted into a logical decision-making process you're hand would be more damaged than if it were simply reflex. Therefore, your reflexes are more intelligent than your "general programmable logic" in that situation. Time is an important factor in intelligence, so a reflex can be more intelligent than a person's general decision-making logic in that regard.
Logic is a line of reasoning that always ends with the following reason:
It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
Why does 1 + 1 = 2?
That is the result of the rules of mathematics.
Why do we have the rules of math?
To accomplish things such as building a house.
Why do we build a house?
To keep dry.
Why do we keep dry?
It keeps us alive.
We do we keep alive?
For the warm fuzzy feelings we get.
Why does 1 + 1 = 2? Because that is the answer that gives us the most warm fuzzy feelings inside. Logic is based on a foundation of emotion.
I suggest it is possible to construct a virtual universe with intelligent beings smarter than humans, who's maximum happiness is achieved using a math where 1 + 1 = 3. And I furthermore suggest that despite their intelligence being smarter than humans they will arrive at the conclusion that 1 + 1 = 3.
You have a personal vendetta against Christianity. Your parents did not. The situations are not comparable. So no, your child will not have the same experience as you did. And the reason you detect agitation from me is because I find it annoying you have a personal vendetta against Christians and pastors in general. But I disagree I personally attacked you in my previous post.
Your assumptions that pastors are control freak child molesters are baseless. No merit. Show the statistics. Look them up. Based on the people I know who are religious, you'll find they by and large are not control freaks and adopt Christianity and become pastors as a way of *helping* others. I'm annoyed by your OP because I think it is based in ignorance of the statistics. You think I'm a nutty Christian? Show me the statistics showing Christian pastors have joined their profession to control others, rather than help them, and I'll join you in bashing them. I can join you.
And once again, logic is based on a framework of emotion. The most clear example of this is theft. A fact of life is that the risk/return ratio on stealing things makes it such that it is more logical to steal things. That is why people steal things in the real world. But despite that, most atheists seem to delude them selves into believing that logical reasoning is the guiding force behind their decision not ever to steal things. No, stealing gives them a bad feeling inside and that is why they don't steal. It has nothing to do with logic which would surely have them stealing lots of things over the course of their lifetime!
Every piece of logic in your mind rests on a foundation of emotion. What do you want Kingalbrect79? What is it that you want in life? If you tell me any random thing you want, I can show you the logical tools you are using to get that thing... and then the emotional foundation for that desire!
Example: Do you want the good looking lady? She may want a guy with looks. She may want a guy with intelligence. So you need a job. You want a job? Then you need an education. You will find that logic like calculus, or maybe memorization exercises, helps you get the education you need to get the job to get the lady. And why do you want the lady? Logical reason or emotional reasons?
Example 2: Do you want to know the best way to solve the a maze you found in a newspaper? Well that may be based based on a desire to enhance your problem-solving skills. And that may be based on a desire to solve the problem of getting the biggest house and fanciest car, which are emotional desires.
Human beings are just animals, and logic is just a tool we use to achieve our emotional desires. So yes, logic rests on a core foundation of emotion. The fact of the matter is that for every piece of logic in your brain, you have an underlying emotional desire which is merely using that logic as a tool to fulfill its desires. Logic is merely a tool... one among many... to fulfill emotional desires.
I won't lie and say I don't find atheists agitating. They agitate me. But the reason that is has nothing to do with my religion. In many ways the world would be a better place if everyone were an atheist. Rather, it has to do with the fact that I was an atheist and tried to use logic as the primary tool for doing whatever it was I wanted to do. Big mistake. Once intuition and emotion are warmly welcomed into the reasoning process, life makes complete sense. You can't over-ride your basic emotional desires with any level of logic. Logic is sometimes a superior decision-making tool. Other times emotion is a superior decision-making tool!
Case in point: you touch something hot, and your hand draws back reflexively... using dumb old animal instinct. If that were to instead be converted into a logical decision-making process you're hand would be more damaged than if it were simply reflex. Therefore, your reflexes are more intelligent than your "general programmable logic" in that situation. Time is an important factor in intelligence, so a reflex can be more intelligent than a person's general decision-making logic in that regard.
Logic is a line of reasoning that always ends with the following reason:
It gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
Why does 1 + 1 = 2?
That is the result of the rules of mathematics.
Why do we have the rules of math?
To accomplish things such as building a house.
Why do we build a house?
To keep dry.
Why do we keep dry?
It keeps us alive.
We do we keep alive?
For the warm fuzzy feelings we get.
Why does 1 + 1 = 2? Because that is the answer that gives us the most warm fuzzy feelings inside. Logic is based on a foundation of emotion.
I suggest it is possible to construct a virtual universe with intelligent beings smarter than humans, who's maximum happiness is achieved using a math where 1 + 1 = 3. And I furthermore suggest that despite their intelligence being smarter than humans they will arrive at the conclusion that 1 + 1 = 3.
edit on 9-4-2011 by civilchallenger because: (no reason given)
This should be moved to the religion forum.
Otherwise, good discussion.
Otherwise, good discussion.
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
I really enjoyed reading your story,and you write so well, however you talked about going through the motions of Christianity and all the participation in the external things, but did you ever actually have a relationship with Christ? It is a very tangible thing, and has nothing to do with religion or any of the externals that most people place on it, this relationship that I speak of, is electric,for lack of a better word, Jesus felt the same way as you do regarding religion,he was totally against it, in fact religion is an enemy to salvation, which it seems that it had that effect on you. btw my hubby is a long haul trucker too,and it hurt me too think of how it made you feel growing up without your dad there,after all little boys need their daddy's to be there for them.
p.s.hope you don't hate me for being one of those nut-jobs.
I really enjoyed reading your story,and you write so well, however you talked about going through the motions of Christianity and all the participation in the external things, but did you ever actually have a relationship with Christ? It is a very tangible thing, and has nothing to do with religion or any of the externals that most people place on it, this relationship that I speak of, is electric,for lack of a better word, Jesus felt the same way as you do regarding religion,he was totally against it, in fact religion is an enemy to salvation, which it seems that it had that effect on you. btw my hubby is a long haul trucker too,and it hurt me too think of how it made you feel growing up without your dad there,after all little boys need their daddy's to be there for them.
p.s.hope you don't hate me for being one of those nut-jobs.
Originally posted by infojunkie2
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
I really enjoyed reading your story,and you write so well...........but did you ever actually have a relationship with Christ? ........... p.s.hope you don't hate me for being one of those nut-jobs.
1. I am very well educated and I try to speak in such a manner that people can understand but also to help facilitate intelligent discussion, so thank you.
2. I gave myself to religion just as any other "christian" does, however because I found nothing of interest from it and I wasn't coerced by emotional manipulation. I don't believe in a personal experience not because it didn't happen to me or that it should have, but that it isn't proof of anything, only my mind creating a character. Many people claim to have personal experiences with various figures in history, and with no more than a name change from "Jesus Christ" to Napoleon or Abraham Lincoln, they are institutionalized. I'm sorry, but the common excuse for "you must not have done it right" or "you weren't a true christian" is just a cop out unfortunately.
3. I don't hate you for being a "nut-job" because you didn't attack me. You asked me very general questions in a very professional manner and I respect that. Unlike Mr. Civil from previous posts, you are one of the few christians that actually READS what I posted and tried to understand it before posting a reply. Thank you.
King
edit on 10-4-2011 by Kingalbrect79 because: Typo
Originally posted by civilchallenger
You have a personal vendetta against Christianity. Your parents did not. The situations are not comparable. So no, your child will not have the same experience as you did. And the reason you detect agitation from me is because I find it annoying you have a personal vendetta against Christians and PASTORS in general.
Yes, we do disagree on your posts, and yes, you are attacking me. If you want an example of a proper response to a thread of this nature, please consult your christian friend InfoJunkie2's thread reply. The reason that I find such aggresive cues in your posts is in the first few words of your first post by mis-labeling me as a representative for every atheist. Last time I checked the thread title was "ONE MAN'S guide," not an atheist's guide.
I do not have a personal vendetta against christianity. I have explained to you already, and YET AGAIN you ignore my response and my OP when I stated that I was not picking out christians, only citing specific examples from my life that involve christianity. My post applies to all religions because all religions are equally responsible for horrific acts in society. My child will not have the same experience as I did because I will be there to support him for one, something I didn't have. Second I will not subject him to ridicule from individuals like yourself who take it upon themselves to label people without actually READING and UNDERSTANDING before making comments.
Your assumptions that pastors are control freak child molesters are baseless. No merit. Show the statistics. Look them up. Based on the people I know who are religious, you'll find they by and large are not control freaks and adopt Christianity and become pastors as a way of *helping* others. I'm annoyed by your OP because I think it is based in ignorance of the statistics. You think I'm a nutty Christian? Show me the statistics showing Christian pastors have joined their profession to control others, rather than help them, and I'll join you in bashing them. I can join you.
For the SECOND TIME, I am not drawing a direct connection between pastors and child molestation. Here is my exact quote:
Never did I say that the pastor was trying to condemn me, nor did I say that all pastors are bad people. But answer me this, is there any other organization on the planet that advocates the raping of children and the covering up of the crimes?
PLEASE point out where I said that pastors were responsible for crimes against children specifically? I am very well versed in english and I know what I wrote; so to me it looks like I was asking you about organizations [organized religion] that advocates raping children. HMM, Again you draw conclusions based on YOUR OWN assumptions. Yiou consistantly fail to actually read what I write and instead form assumptions based on your own teachings AGAINST atheists in general. So if anyone has a vendetta, it is more likely to be you.
......most atheists seem to delude them selves into believing that logical reasoning is the guiding force behind their decision not ever to steal things. No, stealing gives them a bad feeling inside and that is why they don't steal. It has nothing to do with logic which would surely have them stealing lots of things over the course of their lifetime!
Again you are incorrect. Being an atheist has NOTHING to do with the right or wrong of stealing, murder, rape, robbery or any other crime. The "guiding force" has nothing to do with "force," it has to do with social expectation and education. You are taught right from wrong. Society's laws dictate what is right and wrong according to the demographic of the population as well as the geographic location in which you were raised coupled with the time period in which you grew up. In 1955 it was perfectly acceptable and "being a good christian" to be a bigot and a racist against black people. They were beaten, segregaded and even killed all because it was the "right" and socially acceptable thing to do. Today this kind of behavior is unacceptable and even punishable by law. In any case, believing or not believing in "God" has nothing to do with socially acceptable behavior. You can believe in "God" here in the U.S. and the punishment for theft is usually jailtime, however if you commited the same crime and believed in "God" in the middle east, it is perfectly acceptable to cut off your hands for stealing. Two different forms of right and wrong, two different geographic locations, simliar beliefs in a diety, yet they both have nothing to do with religion.
So to think that being an athiest or a christian has ANY BEARING WHATSOEVER on right and wrong is ludacris. If you break the law, you will go to jail. Some people are pre-disposed to crimes because of chemical imbalances in the brain. These imbalances are SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN, not guided by "God."
Every piece of logic in your mind rests on a foundation of emotion. What do you want Kingalbrect79? What is it that you want in life? If you tell me any random thing you want, I can show you the logical tools you are using to get that thing... and then the emotional foundation for that desire!
I don't have to ask for your suggestions because I know what I want and I accept the fact that I am the ONLY person capable of getting it for me. I don't require a deity to tell me how to live my life. I know LOGICALLY how to get what I want. I know that I need to educate myself in the field of my choosing in order to get the job I want. With the job I want I can get the house I want and on and on and on. If I "wish" it enough it isn't going to happen until I make it happen.
Example: Do you want the good looking lady? She may want a guy with looks. She may want a guy with intelligence. So you need a job. You want a job? Then you need an education. You will find that logic like calculus, or maybe memorization exercises, helps you get the education you need to get the job to get the lady. And why do you want the lady? Logical reason or emotional reasons?
You can spin this all you like, but I got the woman I wanted, and I didn't need to have the job, the car or any other physical object. What you are doing is setting up a straw man argument by taking a separate situation that has no base in logic and trying to draw a connection with my topic. Relationships are emotional, that is a common understanding, so what is your point?
Example 2: Do you want to know the best way to solve the a maze you found in a newspaper? Well that may be based based on a desire to enhance your problem-solving skills. And that may be based on a desire to solve the problem of getting the biggest house and fanciest car, which are emotional desires.
Again you are trying to draw an emotional connection through straw man arguments. Who does puzzles in the newspaper to improve their puzzle skills? They do it because they enjoy it, nothing more, nothing less. Your desire reference to getting a house and car connected with puzzles in a paper is a very weak straw man, try a little harder next time.
Case in point: you touch something hot, and your hand draws back reflexively... using dumb old animal instinct. If that were to instead be converted into a logical decision-making process you're hand would be more damaged than if it were simply reflex.
Again that is a very poor straw man argument. Reflexes are neither logic nor emotional in the beginning. If you touch something hot it isn't instinct that tells you to pull your hand back, it's chemical signals in your brain telling your muscles to move away from the point of heat as your FLESH SEARS OFF. This happens far faster than your concious mind can comprehend. The logic of this very poor example is that you are taught NOT to touch hot things first by your parents, and then by direct experience. AFTER you touch it and you pull away, then it becomes an emotional response. However your brain acts and reacts so fast that you interpret it to be nothing more than an emotional response. I assure you it's both, in that order. Your arguments are actually getting more desperate and weaker, please try to understand the topic instead of mis-representing what I post in an order to easily discredit it. I hate straw man arguments, but obviously you excell at using them.
Why does 1 + 1 = 2? Because that is the answer that gives us the most warm fuzzy feelings inside. Logic is based on a foundation of emotion.
Wow, that is one of the worst straw man arguments I have ever seen. I won't even try and tackle that one, but I will ask you this:
Did you honestly just try and connect mathmatics as a reasoning behind emotional response? Sad.
I urge you ONCE AGAIN, please actually read my OP before making such ridiculous comments. You make assumptions that aren't there and set up straw man arguments and use Ad Hominems in an effort to find evidence for something that you and NO OTHER MAN has been able to prove for over 2,000 years.
Try again.
King
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
The interesting part of being athiest in the United States is that we are the most hated people in America...
You're a wanna-be...sorry, but your OP warranted that, and more to come.
You are no better than the zealot down the street standing on a rented soap box...you find empowerment through the label of 'atheist', yet you're as a big a tool as those that claim their god is the only way.
Both of you have made a decision to separate yourselves from logic and find comfort in an ideology that is nothing but a facade...
Either way - good luck with your son...
The interesting part of being athiest in the United States is that we are the most hated people in America...
You're a wanna-be...sorry, but your OP warranted that, and more to come.
You are no better than the zealot down the street standing on a rented soap box...you find empowerment through the label of 'atheist', yet you're as a big a tool as those that claim their god is the only way.
Both of you have made a decision to separate yourselves from logic and find comfort in an ideology that is nothing but a facade...
Either way - good luck with your son...
reply to post by facelift
I'm sorry, but it's actually true. There are actual studies that pointed it out. Second source.
And...where are the openly atheist politicians in America? Not elected officials, I'm talking atheist politicians. Atheism is used as a slur in American discourse, being 'godless' is considered a horrible thing. You have nationally viewed television personalities ridiculing atheism and atheists left and right...but there's very little exposure for atheists who aren't going on those TV shows to promote books.
Wow, outright insults...yet without backing.
Says the person who doesn't understand logic...
How is atheism, the skeptical rejection of the unproven claims of any and all deities proposed, illogical?
How is atheism, which is a single rejection of a single set of claims, an 'ideology'?
Hell, how is it comforting? As an atheist, I find that atheism just....is. It's about as comforting as the atomic weight of boron.
Originally posted by facelift
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
The interesting part of being athiest in the United States is that we are the most hated people in America...
You're a wanna-be...sorry, but your OP warranted that, and more to come.
I'm sorry, but it's actually true. There are actual studies that pointed it out. Second source.
And...where are the openly atheist politicians in America? Not elected officials, I'm talking atheist politicians. Atheism is used as a slur in American discourse, being 'godless' is considered a horrible thing. You have nationally viewed television personalities ridiculing atheism and atheists left and right...but there's very little exposure for atheists who aren't going on those TV shows to promote books.
You are no better than the zealot down the street standing on a rented soap box...you find empowerment through the label of 'atheist', yet you're as a big a tool as those that claim their god is the only way.
Wow, outright insults...yet without backing.
Both of you have made a decision to separate yourselves from logic and find comfort in an ideology that is nothing but a facade...
Says the person who doesn't understand logic...
How is atheism, the skeptical rejection of the unproven claims of any and all deities proposed, illogical?
How is atheism, which is a single rejection of a single set of claims, an 'ideology'?
Hell, how is it comforting? As an atheist, I find that atheism just....is. It's about as comforting as the atomic weight of boron.
Originally posted by facelift
You're a wanna-be...sorry, but your OP warranted that, and more to come.
You are no better than the zealot down the street standing on a rented soap box...you find empowerment through the label of 'atheist', yet you're as a big a tool as those that claim their god is the only way.
I am not sure why you have to label me as a "wanna-be" when I am merely stating my personal experiences and the judgements I have made as a result of those experiences. If you were to tell everyone about your childhood and talk about your personal relationship with "Jesus", how is that not being a wanna-be? I am what I am, a NON believer in an ideology you cannot provide evidence for, it really is that simple.
As far as the soap box, that is far from the truth my friend. How many threads can you list that just have people from both sides of the debate just posting rants and raves about how the other side sucks?
I instead share my personal life and experiences with the entire ATS community and ask for suggestions and discussion about the decisions I will have to face and the immediate response is just as expected...
"The atheist does this, and you are just this....so on and so on. I am one man, I have my own idea of how my life should be ran and since you nor any of your fellow believers can provide any concrete evidence that the story you preach is true, I stand as an atheist. I am not attacking christians specifically, on the contrary I have stated that I feel evenly about all religions, not just yours. I have had personal experience with christianity so that is the only example I can use to tie into this conversation.
The problem is that when an atheist speaks out he is immediately called out and ridiculed, and this thread is NO EXCEPTION. Yet when you (and I mean "you" in a general sense) post standard religious dogma I am supposed to just accept what you tell me as the truth and sit back down.
I don't like having to defend myself against such rhetoric, but I expect it, so if it is what I have to do to get the answers I am seeking, then so be it. In any case, I will not sit down and be quiet, and I don't have to use a soap box to do it.
King
reply to post by Kingalbrect79
Your friendly nut-job here, now I know that you can defend your own self,but I hate it, that facelift took your life experiences that you so heartfeltly put out there for us to view and trampled them the way he did.
you have been on my heart every since I read your first post,and I feel compelled to pray for you,so let it be known you have become my new prayer burden.
Your friendly nut-job here, now I know that you can defend your own self,but I hate it, that facelift took your life experiences that you so heartfeltly put out there for us to view and trampled them the way he did.
you have been on my heart every since I read your first post,and I feel compelled to pray for you,so let it be known you have become my new prayer burden.
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