Why I believe Creation is factually accurate – The Reality!

reply to post by MrXYZ

Hi XYZ -

Actually the End of Days StakeOut on the Mountain waiting for the End to Come started a lot further back than a couple 'hundred years' ago - it can actually be traced all the way back to the time of the 1st century with the End of Days speeches of Yohanon bar Zechariah (=John the Baptist) and his owh Jordan River Baptised Disciple "Jesus" = R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir himself (Gk. 'Iesous') when the latter was said to have blurted out such reckless 'false prophecies' referring to the Son of Man Coming in Glory as :

'Amen, Amen I say unto you : there are some standing HERE right NOW that will NOT taste of Death until THEY SEE the Bar Enasha ('son of Man') riding in Glory upon the Clouds, mounted on the Right Hand of the Power of EL with all of his holy ones with him...'

or

'Amen, Amen I say unto you: THIS very Generation shall NOT pass away until ALL these things come to pass..' which is ecchoed in the ugent 'the day is NOW' language of the Book of the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (c. AD 69) aka the 'Book of Revelation', e.g. see the Language of its Prologue

['and he revealed to Yohanon in Vision Symbols things that are happening NOW and also those things that are SHORTLY to come to pass to all the Elect Ones in the Last Days...") etc.

We also see the End is Now language in the 3rd canonical Greek Gospel ('according to Luke", whoever he was) it even said that the Kingdom was coming 'any minute"

e.g. 'And as the disciples approached Jerusalem, they started to believe that the Kingdom of [God] was going to descend at any moment...' (see Luke 19:11)

In the 3rd canonical Greek gospel ('according to Mark' whoever he was) we see a confrontation between 'Joseph Caiaphas' and the hand-died R. Yehoshua :

'And he asked him directly, Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One, then?!!'

And Iesous answered him saying, (Gk: EGO EIMI) Yehei ESHER Yehei ('I Am [that I Am]") - and 'very soon YOU will see' the Bar Enasha flying on the Clouds, Sittiing on the Right Hand of the Power, with all of his holy ones with him ! "

To which Joseph Caiphas immediately tore his expensive holy priestly vestments (i.e. at the physical utterance of 'ha Shem' the 'divine Name YHWH', which was technically considered 'Blasphemy' for anyone but a High Priest to utter in the holy of Holies i.e. the Debir ('lit. Oracle') itself) etc.

But this particular prophecy of the End is Near and the Bar Enasha riding in Glory did not ever materialise for Caiphas : in other words it did NOT happen in actual factual historical time, that is to say, literally speaking - the High Priest Yosef Kaiphah ("Caiaphas") never saw anything but a naked dead Galilean 'terrorist' who armed his discuiples and who caused riots in the Temple swinging from a Roman gibbet -

In other words, he saw C-V-D = CEVED ('agony') and not C-V-D = CAVOD ('glory') - for all those on this thread who like Hebrew language puns!

All of which ultimately, of course, (that is, if we were to take the Greek words placed into the mouth of 'Iesous' in the 2nd canonical Greek Gospel literally) kindd of makes our 'Iesous' technically a 'False Prophet' - since what he uttered as an Oracle DID NOT actually 'come to pass' as advertised -

At least that is the way 1st century Palestinian Judaeans would have viewed the matter - and they verry well all knew how to treat 'False Prophets' in Yisro'el e.g. 'You will NOT listen to him !"

(see Deut. 18: 20 - I have furnished a rough of the MT - Masoretic Vowell Pointed Textual version from AD 960 for convenience here - although admittednly all the the various unpointed consonantal textual Hebrew underlays to the LXX Greek translations of the Hebrerw Scriptures and the Aramaic Targums and the much earlier Dead Sea Scroll versions are all slightly differently worded in places here, but the MT is close enough to get the gist of the meaning, despite it being a very late text)


20 Thus saith YHWH - If a Prophet shall speak a False Prophecy in My name, even an Oracle which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall claim speak in the name of another clan god than YHWH, that same Prophet shall be put to death '

אַךְ הַנָּבִיא אֲשֶׁר יָזִיד לְדַבֵּר דָּבָר בִּשְׁמִי, אֵת אֲשֶׁר לֹא-צִוִּיתִיו לְדַבֵּר, וַאֲשֶׁר יְדַבֵּר, בְּשֵׁם אֱלֹהִים אֲחֵרִים--וּמֵת, הַנָּבִיא הַהוּא.

21 And if you say in your hearts: 'How shall we know if the oracle spoken has really been uttered from YHWH or not ?

וְכִי תֹאמַר, בִּלְבָבֶךָ: אֵיכָה נֵדַע אֶת-הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-דִבְּרוֹ יְהוָה


22 And if a Prophet should utter an Oracle in the Name of YHWH and the Event does NOT occur or come to pass [i.e. as advertised by him] , then his Oracle is one which YHWH has NOT caused to be uttered - and that Prophet has uttered a False Prophecy - therefore you will NOT LISTEN to him !

אֲשֶׁר יְדַבֵּר הַנָּבִיא בְּשֵׁם יְהוָה, וְלֹא-יִהְיֶה הַדָּבָר וְלֹא יָבֹא--הוּא הַדָּבָר, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-דִבְּרוֹ יְהוָה: בְּזָדוֹן דִּבְּרוֹ הַנָּבִיא, לֹא תָגוּר מִמֶּנּוּ

See also Deut 18:15-18 where it states in the MT :

15 [And Mosheh said]: Your own clan god YHWH will cause a Prophet to arise from your midst, even from your brothers who will be like me - You WILL listen to him !!

נָבִיא מִקִּרְבְּךָ מֵאַחֶיךָ כָּמֹנִי, יָקִים לְךָ יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ: אֵלָיו, תִּשְׁמָעוּן.

Which kind of makes the so-called Transfiguration Periocopes 'theologically necessary' in the Greek Gospel tradition for several reasons

a. To show that the Bar Enasha ('son of Man' whom the earliest Christians identified with 'Iesous') was somehow appearing in Glory as he said he would (but only witnessed by his Inner Circle of Three Disciples hence "some of you standing here now will see the Bar Enasha sitting on the right hand of the Power" etc.)

b. To have a Thunderclap announce to the bystanders (albeit in a vision in the 1st gospel) viz. 'This is my beloved Son, You WILL LISTEN to him !"

In other words, the so-called Transfiguration Pericopes (which use the specific language of Thunder ('qol' - = also means 'voice') and Lightning ('whiter than fuller's soap' = seeMalachi 3:1-4 for some Transfiguratory End of Days imagery) significantly on a 'Mountain Top' in the self-same vein as the 'Epiphanies' (manifestation of a god) e.g. of the Hebrew clan god YHWH to 'Mosheh' in the Torah) in the Synoptic Greek Canonical Gospels (Matt-Luke-John, whoever they were) are a kind of ANTI-False Prophet Propaganda Message for a perceived false-'prophet' whose words certainly did not come 'literally' True i.e. in real, physical historical time' but in a kind of hazy theological time (i.e. in dreams and visions like the Inner Three Discciples (Jakkob son of Zavdai aka James the Greater / Shimeon- bar Yonah haKephah aka Peter / and Yohanon bar Zavdai, aka John the son of Zebedee).

So this kind of sitting on a mountain waiting for the End goes back to the very beginning of Christianity - those 12 Legions of Angels that were supposed to swoop down and 'destroy the goyim' that Pesach must have been playing Pinochle or otherwise occupied with more important matters in 36 CE than to save executed Daviddic Pretenders at Passover on the 100th Anniversary ( 'The Insurrection') of Pompey's Roman Invasion of Judaea in BCE 63 !

reply to post by MrXYZ


It's not the end of The world, It will be The End of The age of Grace...

You can Deny all you want! It won't change what is happening in The World!
Major Events World-Wide Will Keep Unfolding... Increasing In Intensity... (Birth Pangs)

24They will fall by the mouth and the edge of the sword and will be led away as captives to and among all nations; and Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).

25And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth [there will be] distress (trouble and anguish) of nations in bewilderment and perplexity [ without resources, left wanting, embarrassed, in doubt, not knowing which way to turn] at the roaring ( the echo) of the tossing of the sea,

26Men swooning away or expiring with fear and dread and apprehension and expectation of the things that are coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken and caused to totter.
27And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with great (transcendent and overwhelming) power and [all His kingly] glory (majesty and splendor).

28Now when these things begin to occur, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption (deliverance) is drawing near.

29And He told them a parable: Look at the fig tree and all the trees;

30When they put forth their buds and come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and perceive and know that summer is already near.

31Even so, when you see these things taking place, understand and know that the kingdom of God is at hand.
32Truly I tell you, this generation ( those living at that definite period of time) will not perish and pass away until all has taken place.

33The sky and the earth ([l]the universe, the world) will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

34But take heed to yourselves and be on your guard, lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed (weighed down) with the [m]giddiness and headache and [n]nausea of self-indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares pertaining to [the business of] this life, and [lest] that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose;

35For it will come upon all who live upon the face of the entire earth.
36Keep awake then and watch at all times [be discreet, attentive, and ready], praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things [taken together] that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.

reply to post by Faith2011


You're misquoting Jesus. The "This generation" part is clearly something referring to those people he is talking to, there is nothing in the Greek that indicates he is referring to anything other than those people he is addressing at that moment.

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
reply to post by SuperiorEd

 

So if the bible is such a good instruction manual for the human race then how come people get it wrong so very often ? I'm open minded about the possibility of a creator as it's clear something happened to create the universe, though what it was i really don't know.

Here's my problem with religion - people use it as an excuse to do the most terrible things, history has shown us this time and time again.

LIke anything, it's open to interpretation. Believing in things doesn't make you a good person, it's your acts that count.

so if you BELIEVE your neighbor is a "bad" person or doing "bad" things, where did the idea come from or by what standard are you judging and will you or whoever act according to your belief?

To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.

And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
www.biblegateway.com...

Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

How can you say, ‘We are wise,
And the law of the LORD is with us’?
Look, the false pen of the scribe certainly works falsehood.

God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth

or 1300's middle English if like to compare translations on at least the last two verses above-

God that made the world and alle thingis that ben in it, this, for he is Lord of heuene and of erthe, dwellith not in templis maad with hoond, nethir is worschipid bi mannus hoondis, nether hath nede of ony thing, for he yyueth lijf to alle men, and brethinge, and alle thingis;and made of oon al the kinde of men to enhabite on al the face of the erthe, determynynge tymes ordeyned, and termes of the dwellynge of hem,
to seke God, if perauenture thei felen hym, ether fynden, thouy he be not fer fro eche of you.

Hou seien ye, We ben wise men, and the lawe of the Lord is with vs? Verili the fals writyng of scribis wrouyte leesyng. Wise men ben schent, ben maad aferd and takun. For thei castiden awei the word of the Lord, and no wisdom is in hem.en.wikisource.org...(Wycliffe)/Jeremiah#Chapter_8

rejected by men but chosen by God? did no wrong? no one will hear his voice in the streets?

Michael White, writing for the Twentieth Century Atlas, has compiled an intriguing list of body counts, attributable to the worst known acts of war, and other human atrocities, dating back to the fall of Rome. I will venture to briefly list them here by count and century:

55 million, Second World War (20C); 40 million, under Mao Zedong (20C); 40 million, Mongol Conquests(13C); 36 million, An Lushan Revolt(8C); 25 million, Fall of the Ming Dynasty(17C); 20 million, Taiping Rebellion(19C); 20 million, toll of American Indians, (15C-19C), 20 million, under Joseph Stalin(20C); 19 million, Mideast Slave Trade(7C-19C); 18 million, Atlantic Slave Trade(15C-); 17 million, Islamic Conquest of India(14C-15C); 17 million, British India(19C); 15 million, First World War(20C); 9 million, Russian Civil War(20C); 9 million, Hindu Thuggee cult killings(13C-19C); 8 million, Fall of Rome(3C-5C); 8 million, Congo Free State(19C – 20C); 7 million, Thirty Years War(17C); 5 million, Russia's Time of Troubles(16C-17C), 4 million, Napoleonic Wars(19C); 3 million, Chinese Civil War(20C); 3 million, French Wars of Religion(16C).

Taken all together, we have 401 million deaths over nearly 2000 years of war and barbarism. Just for the sake of argument, let’s add another 10%, or 40 million, to cover margins of error, and other wars. This would bring our total to 441 million deaths over the last 20 centuries.

Now, what about abortion? At the low end of the Guttmacher scale, even if we ignore all abortions done prior to 1980 when accurate numbers are a little more difficult to ascertain, abortion accounts for more than twice the number of deaths by war! In just the last 25 years, the ghastly toll for abortion has totaled over 900 million dead babies. Taking the more probable mean average, the toll rises to well over 1 billion babies; or nearly three times the amount of deaths due to war.www.covenantnews.com...

reply to post by Sigismundus


Sigis -

you said:

Your ‘literalist’ understanding of textually corrupt, un-pointed paleo Hebrew ‘scriptures (words that you cannot even read in the original) is shocking and painfully jejune.

But my as you say “shocking and painfully jejune” understanding of the Bible makes more sense than any “painfully” convoluted twisted mishmash detached way of analyzing it.


The fact that the Bible was miraculously preserved and transferred down to our time with impeccable accuracy and integrity means that any twisting done to it will not succeed.

Hebrew Scriptures scholar W. H. Green observed:

“It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.” (Archaeology and Bible History, by J. P. Free)

Sir Frederic Kenyon:

“The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established. General integrity, however, is one thing, and certainty as to details is another.”

So I have no doubt at all that the Bible IS authentic not just because of what scholars has said but because of the harmony within its pages and the overall message to mankind – from paradise lost to paradise regained and above all the sanctification of God’s holy name: Jehovah (YHWH).

“That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth.” PS 83:18 (DBY)

You said:

So….to recap your OP…. let me get this straight – you want all of us moderns today on this OP threadlet ‘literally to believe’ that the 2 Creation Myths of the Jews in Gen 1:1 to 2:4a and 2:4b to 4:26 are NOT mutually contradictory at all, i.e. if read side by side by ‘close reading’?

(Here’s a project for you: try reading them both back to back very very very closely – in English if that’s all you can read - then check out the Different Order of Creation, for a start.

You can then compare all the other MUTUALLY CONTRADICTORY DETAILS (‘male and female created Elohim in his own image and he called THEIR name ADAM” – which means ELOHIM is (literally) male AND female like ADAM – see Gen 5:1-2, written by the same Hezekielite Babylonian accented priest who gave us the 1st Creation Myth of the Jews found in Gen 1:1 to 2:4a)

OK – done that and here’s what it actually says according to my as you put it “shocking and painfully jejune” understanding of the Bible. I’ll sum it up to keep it short.

The sequence of Creation Events according to the Bible goes this way:

1) Gen 1:1 - “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”

(Gen 1:1) Here the Heavens (galaxies), planets, earth, sun moon stars already existed. It's a statement of the “beginning” of creation – these can be billions and billions of years. In fact according to evidence the universe is somewhere around 14byo and the earth somewhere around 4byo. No specific time line given. No contradiction.

2) Genesis 1:2 - “Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.”

(Gen 1:2) Here God now focuses his attention to the formless planet - called earth, enveloped in “watery deep”.

Next verses deal with the preparation of the formless planet earth for habitation.

(Sequence of Creative Events)

Day No. ------- Creative Works --------------------------------------Texts

1 ------ Light; division between day and night ---------------------- Gen 1:3-5

2 ------ Expanse, a division between waters
beneath the expanse and waters above it --------------------------- Gen 1:6-8

3 ------ Dry land; vegetation ------------------------------------------ Gen 1:9-13

4 ------ Heavenly luminaries become discernible from earth -------- Gen 1:14-19

5 ------ Aquatic souls and flying creatures --------------------------- Gen 1:20-23

6 ------ Land animals; man ----------------------------------------------- Gen 1:24-31

7 ------Upon completion of his creative works, God rested------- Gen 2:1-3

Note: Each “Creative 'DAY'” is NOT a literal 24 hrs “day” or a 1000 years “day” as some believe but millenniums. Like in the “days of my father”, in short it's an epoch. Chapter 2:1-3 gives us an idea how long the “Creative Day” is.

Notice:

“ Thus the heavens and the earth and all their army came to their completion. 2 And by the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made. 3 And God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.” (Genesis 2:1-3)

So unlike the six “creative days” which had endings, Gen 2:1-3 - the Seventh “Creative Day” – indicates that it did not stop there but continued for a long time. In fact the apostle Paul said that they were living in that “rest day” of God during their time (Hebrews 4:1-11). And will continue in the future all the way to Jesus' 1000 year reign period for he is referred to as “Lord of the Sabbath” (Mt 12:8).

Gen 2:4b – 4:26: The narrative now focuses on man's affairs – Adam and Eve. It contains an accurate record of how ‘the man’ was formed from the “dust of the ground” followed by ‘the woman’. It tells how they were given a good start – living in paradise called the Garden of Eden. Sadly because of disobedience they lost the chance to live happily in that paradisaic location. They did not listen to their Creator but instead listened to a lie from an angelic creature that turned bad. By a cunning way (ventriloquism), Satan used a snake to deceive Eve. Eve listened and Adam followed suit. That disobedience then brought in imperfection, sin and death. And because of this they started to grow old get sick and eventually died. The narrative also tells us that life outside the Garden of Eden was a tough one for now they have to grow their own food. Outside the garden Adam and Eve bore sinful imperfect children just like them and one this offspring named Cain murdered his brother Abel due to jealousy. From there mankind flourished – speaking one language living in a dying imperfect sinful state.

The rest as they say is history and we’re part of that living history.

As you can see there’s no contradiction whatsoever. All you need to know is where story line starts and where it ends and of course you need to consider also the contents of the story line and the context or else you’ll be out of context.

So from a “very very very” careful analysis, the Bible is flawless and accurate contrary to what you’re saying. And I believe the contradictions you're alluding to are due to a “very very very” faulty analysis and highly critical erroneous ideas, out of context that is.

You also said:

Further, you expect modern thinking persons on this thread to believe’ literally’ that Vegetation (i.e. ‘herbs, grasses, trees’) were created or somehow magically existed upon the ‘earth’ (or ‘land’) WAY BEFORE the ‘creation’ of the Stars, the Sun and the Moon?

(Hint: there’s a charming little thing called PhotoSynthesis – try reading up a little on the subject – clearly there was no Vegetation in existence (nor could there be) BEFORE the Sun or the Stars or even the Moon came into existence, this scientifically (i.e. ‘literally’) speaking.

Are you somehow related to Madness, MrXYZ et al, because it appears that you’re using the same old argument like theirs? Are you using the same websites? Anyway I've already explained this but just n case you’re not aware of it here’s my as you put it “shocking and painfully jejune” explanation.

OK.

The Genesis account does not say as you erroneously put it “that Vegetation (i.e. ‘herbs, grasses, trees’) were created or somehow magically existed upon the ‘earth’ (or ‘land’) WAY BEFORE the ‘creation’ of the Stars, the Sun and the Moon”. The Bible writer did not imply or write such erroneous, unscientific statement. In fact such explanation is used MAINLY by oppo-nents of the Bible in order to discredit it. That is, that somehow ‘Plants existed before the Sun and Moon’ (Genesis 1:11-16).


But upon closer examination IMJO the account simply states that:


On the “fourth day,” God went on “to make the two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night, and also the stars.” (Genesis 1:14-19).


Neglecting (intentionally or not) the fact that God created these heavenly bodies earlier, “in the beginning” at Genesis 1:1. These heavenly bodies including the earth were created thousands even billions of years ago. But Genesis 1:2-11 deals with how the “formless earth” was being prepared for habitation, the rest of the verses deal with creation of living things.


This can be ascertained by the use of the words “created” - (Hebrew, bara′) at Genesis 1:1 and “made” - (Hebrew, ‘asah) at Genesis 1:16.


ba'ra (created) – simply means the 'act of creation' – as “In [the] beginning God created (ba’ra) the heavens and the earth”. The Hebrew bara’′ and the Greek kti′zo, both meaning “create,” are used exclusively with reference to divine creation.


created -- h1254 --- ברא bara'


www.blueletterbible.org.../1
www.blueletterbible.org...


'Asah' (made) on the other hand simply means made to “appear”, “come to be” – so that the “two great luminaries, the greater luminary for dominating the day and the lesser luminary for dominating the night” will serve “as signs and for seasons and for days and years.”

made --- h6213 ----עשה `asah


www.blueletterbible.org.../16
www.blueletterbible.org...


Along this line of thought, it's also important to note that on the first creative “day,” the expression “Let light come to be” (Gen 1:3) the Hebrew word used for “light” is ’ohr, meaning light in a general sense. That is, there was light but can't pinpoint the exact source or location – just light.

"Let there be light"; (ASV) --- h216 --- אור 'owr


www.blueletterbible.org...


But on the fourth “day,” the Hebrew word “lights” changes to ma’ohr′, (Gen 1:14) which means the source of the light (luminaries). That is, the lights coming from the sun as daylight and moonlight at night. So someone standing on earth at that point in time can now see the sun, moon and stars in the sky/expanse.

"Let there be lights (ASV) ----- h3974 ------ מאור ma'owr


www.blueletterbible.org.../14

To compare:

Another version reads this way (NWT):

“. . .And God proceeded to say: “Let light come to be.” Then there came to be light.” (Gene-sis 1:3)

“. . .And God went on to say: “Let luminaries come to be in the expanse of the heavens to make a division between the day and the night; and they must serve as signs and for seasons and for days and years.” (Genesis 1:14)


“3 Then God commanded, "Let there be light" - and light appeared.” Gen 1:3 (GNT)


“14 Then God commanded, "Let lights appear in the sky to separate day from night and to show the time when days, years, and religious festivals begin;” Gen 1:14 (GNT)


So from these simple observations we can see that the sun already existed thousands or even billions of years ago before even the very first blade of grass “shoot forth” out of the ground.


Side note:


Interestingly scientific evidence is in agreement on the succession of creative events men-tioned in Genesis 1.


Also according to science, in order for plants to live and grow they will require sunlight so that photosynthesis will function – any 5th grader knows this.


So to someone who’s not familiar with the Bible, just reading Genesis 1:11-16 one might arrive at a wrong conclusion. But upon consideration of the surrounding verses then the picture becomes clear. The seeming contradictions are not really contradictions but a misunderstanding of the sequence of Creative Events – unless one’s goal is to discredit the Bible - then it’s a convenient way of hiding the truth.


So again, NO contradictions as you’ve alluded to. But like I said taken out of context and story line one can arrive at the wrong conclusion – like you did.

“Jejunely” makes Sense, “Jejunely” logical?

Bottom line - the Bible is accurate no matter how it is twisted, it will not contradict itself and those who will try to show otherwise will only fail.

Proving again that Creation is the Reality.

Of course up to you to believe ….or not.

ty,
edmc2


be back with the rest...

reply to post by Rustami

so if you BELIEVE your neighbor is a "bad" person or doing "bad" things, where did the idea come from or from what standard and will you or whoever act according to your belief?

Ah well in my case it would come from my upbringing and from the concept of ethics i've developed over the years, no doubt there's elements of christian values in there as I'm from a christian country. A lot of ethics, as represented in the commandments, were probably in effect way before christianity. I mean has it ever been cool to covet your neigbours ox ?

As for abortion there's considerable difference between a woman choosing to abort a child and some woman getting burnt at the stake because of what she believes. Besides modern day abortion doesn't excuse all the harm christianity has done, i could argue the way the catholic church limited tecnological development led to possibly billions of deaths from bad sanitation alone.

I saw this and thought of you guys:

Anatomical clues to human evolution from fish

Originally posted by Astyanax
Ah, yes. Another God promotion from the indefatigable edmc^2, who will babble and ramble, distort logic and commonsense to the point of unrecognizability, and contemptuously ignore questions and criticisms in order to peddle his favourite line of tosh.

Guess what? I’m not playing this time.

And frankly, my sensible friends, neither should you. I say we stop feeding this creationist’s habit.

Have a cry. If you can't maintain or win a debate then you don't have to. That's your choice.

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
reply to post by Rustami

 

Ah well in my case it would come from my upbringing and from the concept of ethics i've developed over the years, no doubt there's elements of christian values in there as I'm from a christian country. A lot of ethics, as represented in the commandments, were probably in effect way before christianity. I mean has it ever been cool to covet your neigbours ox ?

Christ~Christianity-

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

which was before Moses

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven

Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. www.biblegateway.com

As for abortion there's considerable difference between a woman choosing to abort a child and some woman getting burnt at the stake because of what she believes.

At least one-fifth of white children and two-thirds of black children are born to single mothers.1 At least 50% of all children born in the United States will live in a single parent household before they become adults.2 Fathers are abdicating their parental responsibilities and are causing women to choose abortion over motherhood.
www.godandscience.org...

"The Father of Modern Genetics"
Dr. Lejeune explained that within three to seven days after fertilization we can determine if the new human being is a boy or a girl. "At no time," Dr. Lejeune said, "is the human being a blob of protoplasm. As far as your nature is concerned, I see no difference between the early person that you were at conception and the late person which you are now. You were, and are, a human being."

fetus
late 14c., "the young while in the womb or egg," from L. fetus (often, incorrectly, foetus) "the bearing, bringing forth, or hatching of young," from Latin base *fe- "to generate, bear," also "to suck, suckle" (see fecund). In Latin, fetus sometimes was transferred figuratively to the newborn creature itself, or used in a sense of "offspring, brood" (cf. Horace's "Germania quos horrida parturit Fetus"), but this was not the basic meaning. www.etymonline.com

Sir Albert Lilley, widely considered the "Father of Fetology", and unabashedly pro-life (as anyone with his vast knowledge of fetal development should be) makes some remarkable statements about fetal pain www.abort73.com

reply to post by Rustami


I give more credit to replies that aren't just quotes from some highly biased website, think for yourself man, you might like it !

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
I saw this and thought of you guys:

Anatomical clues to human evolution from fish

I'm sorry, but what a nonsense article. Complete and utter speculation! The reason we are from fish is because our eyes formed near the side of the head and then eventually end up near the front. What a load of bs.

"The philtrum is the groove on your top lip that lies just beneath your nose. You see it every day in the mirror so you probably never think about it"

I'm more inclined to think it serves the purpose of giving the lips flexibility, not to mention definition to the face in order to create a unique face. It's also an attractive part of the body which gives lips shape and beauty, facilitating sexual attraction. To say it's just a useless by product from fish is total rubbish in my opinion. Kind of how evolutionists banged on about how the appendix was a vestigial organ, when we know it's not.

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
I saw this and thought of you guys:

Anatomical clues to human evolution from fish

- another fish story....which one got away?

Are you guys seriously saying that we just suddenly just popped into existance at a wave of god's magic wand ? If you really believe that then i've got a piece of the true and holy cross - yours for 50k !

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
Are you guys seriously saying that we just suddenly just popped into existance at a wave of god's magic wand ? If you really believe that then i've got a piece of the true and holy cross - yours for 50k !

edit on 5-5-2011 by Hopeforeveryone because: frikkin keyboard - honest !

Are you seriously saying that we just eventually formed into existence after a bunch of extremely rare and non-observable random mutations from a rock? I've got a rock if you wanna buy it too! Maybe a trade?

reply to post by Caleb.K


Nah i'm saying we're a product of complex organic chemistry that has gained higher and higher levels of complexity over millions of years, no rocks needed. Hey i'm not even opposed to the idea of a creator but i think you religious lot need to update your concept of creation to include modern day scientific discoveries. All cutures move forward, why do you need to stick to a 2000 year old book to validate your beliefs. Beliefs can change when new information comes along.

Here's an idea, why don't you all form a website, reinvent christianity to include all aspect of modern day science then write a new bible. Could call it the brand new testament ( name's unimportant really). Then you'd really have something to annoy atheists with. Could even include all the good moralistic stuff in the original and all the interesting stories and alegories. I'd buy it for a read !

For the record i'm undecided about there being a creator but all this denial of modern science does put me off christianity as a belief system.

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


I don't believe we came into existence with a wave of the wand either, i was just pointing out how silly it is to just simplify anothers beliefs. Jehovah God created the universe over many millions of years, how he did it, i don't know. Is there evidence to the bible having scientific knowledge? Yes. And is there evidence of intellegent design in everything around us. Yes there is. That is why i can't accept evolution, why do you evolutionists still follow a 200 year old theory? Because guess what, in 2,000 years evolution will be an old theory as well, but just because something is old, does not mean it's incorrect.

Originally posted by edmc^2
But my as you say “shocking and painfully jejune” understanding of the Bible makes more sense than any “painfully” convoluted twisted mishmash detached way of analyzing it.

Yeah but your reading the edited versión. While sigismundus is showing you that the original drafts that don't always say the same thing. Your version is the homogenized version after a large world power rewrote it the way they wanted to. They are the ones I distrust the most.

reply to post by Caleb.K


Why does evolution and christianity have to be so irreconcilable - you guys should just accept it and move on. In the last 100 years or so this schizm has caused more people to move away from christianity than anything else. Any belief that won't move with the times is going to be in for a rough time of it.

Also one of the beauties of science is we can go "gosh we got it wrong, let's take what we've learnt on board and move on" can religion do that ?

reply to post by Hopeforeveryone


Science and Christianity go hand in hand. Evolution is not scientific, it speculative and has no real evidence. What is your evidence? The fossil record? The human genome? Mutations?

The fossil record... unproven, you can't even find the ever elusive missing link. Often evolutionists claim they don't need the fossil record to prove evolution.

The human genome, so complex that it proves to me that there is an intelligent designer. Sure all life has similar building blocks, thats why theres life. The differences may be small but they are specific and are not the act of random mutations.

Mutations are destructive, they always end in an inferior product. We have no evidence of mutations leading to a new species, even in bacteria where thousands of generations multiply. Bacteria changes into different strains, but they are still bacteria.

Evolutionists have as much faith in their religion as people who believe in Intelligent Design.

reply to post by Caleb.K


You know i used to have a grandmother who when asked about fossils would reply that the devil put them there to confuse people, she really believed it too, bless her. I'm giving up on this thread because as they say "You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think" Good night and god bless