Trump sends investigators to Hawaii to look into Obama !!

Originally posted by aceshootn
Surely you can do better than that.

how about providing those same records for all previous POTUS's then - why dont you do that?

reply to post by dereks


I'm not interested in any other Presidents records. If you have proof that any other President wasn't a natural born US citizen then post it. Currently we have a sitting US President who has REFUSED to allow any access to ANY personal records. AND we have a current sitting US President who WON'T prove he is a US citizen.

But you didn't answer the question: Why did YOU play the race card? I didn't

Originally posted by aceshootn
I'm not interested in any other Presidents records.

That is obvious, as none of them were black. You only demand those records from the first black POTUS!

Currently we have a sitting US President who has REFUSED to allow any access to ANY personal records.

Exactly the same as all previous POTUS's - but you keep ignoring that fact

Just why do you think the records are called "personal"?

AND we have a current sitting US President who WON'T prove he is a US citizen.

yet another birther lie - how did all previous POTUS's prove that they were US citizens? You also ignore the fact that Obama has posted his birth certificate....

Why did YOU play the race card?

YOU are the one playing the race card here, only demanding personal records from a black man!

Ignoring the fact that no previous white POTUS had to show the records that you are demanding from Obama.

reply to post by dereks


Just in case you are unaware of it. Its 2011. In 2011its ok to ask questions to a black person.

Originally posted by aceshootn
. In 2011its ok to ask questions to a black person.

But why ONLY ask the black person, ignoring the white people who you did not ask the same questions to........

reply to post by dereks


Your right:
White - George W. Bush was not born in New Haven,CT
White - Bill Clinton was not born in Hope Arkansas
White - Ronald Regan was not born in Tampico, Illinois

They are all born in Kenya and have certificates of live birth.

Originally posted by aceshootn
They are all born in Kenya and have certificates of live birth.

Care to post those birth certificates then?

Originally posted by kinda kurious
The only thing that keeps me sane is my daily worship at my Dr Seuss shrine chanting:

"Be who you are and say what you feel because the people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind."

Ugh! Clearly, I've been reciting the wrong chant at my Dr. Seuss shrine! No wonder I'm not sane! I've been chanting:

“My alphabet starts with this letter called yuzz. It's the letter I use to spell yuzz-a-ma-tuzz.
You'll be sort of surprised what there is to be found - once you go beyond 'Z' and start poking around!”

I'll be changing to your chant post haste.

Originally posted by aceshootn
I'm not interested in any other Presidents records.

Well, at least you're honest about it. Thanks!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Ugh! Clearly, I've been reciting the wrong chant at my Dr. Seuss shrine! No wonder I'm not sane!...

I'll be changing to your chant post haste.

PLEASE DO NOT EVER CHANGE! ATS WOULD NOT BE THE SAME! You are one of the sanest members here. Besides, Dr. Seuss chants are personal and our Lord and Saviour Seuss grants the wishes of his entire devout flock.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5c0fac902101.jpg[/atsimg]

Seek and ye shall be Seussified:

“Today you are You, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is Youer than You.”

reply to post by dereks


Oh my. I had no clue that 'racism shtick' was still being played. I thought debunkers of such conspiracies matured past that point of desperation a while back. But I don't keep up with this topic much.

But ask and you shall receive:

McCain's Citizenship Called Into Question

Other examples:

This issue has been raised before in the presidential campaigns of Barry Goldwater, born in Arizona territory not the United States, and George Romney, born in Mexico. But it was never resolved.

McCain's eligibility was also called into question. His status later became moot once he lost the race and Obama was elected.

Only those who cannot see past one's skin's color are the ones who resort to such race card tactics. How insulting that must be to Obama when even some of his supports can't see past it.

reply to post by AshleyD


It's a simple little trick.
If you can't win the argument just - change the game-.
One way is to play the race card.
Suddenly, we are not talking about Obama being born in Kenya. We are talking about why someone
is a racist. Get it?

reply to post by Eurisko2012


BINGO!!!! Since no one else is going to say it.

I think on a larger scale of things, the whole B.C issue is being extended by O and his team. A gamble which they might take a beating on.

What was the last number of people (Voters!) that thought this was an issue that had to be cleared up-like 32%.

That is A LOT of voters. I don't think O will have the luxury of lettig a large part of the voting public go by-they aren't all Republicans.

So, getting back to the point made.. maybes he sand bagging the B.C. for a future smack down before the 2012 elections. If he lets it go on much longer he will not fair well in 2012. IMO

Originally posted by dereks

Originally posted by aceshootn
I'm not interested in any other Presidents records.

That is obvious, as none of them were black. You only demand those records from the first black POTUS!

He's half black

Here's my take on the issue:

Obama acts like a man with something to hide and has spent significant money, even if not 2 mil, doing it.

The produced Certification of Live Birth is meaningless and not even accepted by the state of Hawaii as proof of birth there. I have a valid Certificate of Live Birth, so do most Americans, so why can't Obama produce his?

Obama has never been vetted. He is a product of the Chicago Democrat political machine and George Soros. At the local and state level anyone who questioned his qualifications would have been brutally and quickly silenced. Any agency that might have questioned his qualifications would have been Democrat controlled anyway and ignored any suggestion he was not eligible.

He was elected to the Senate in 2004 but again never vetted because it was assumed he was vetted for his other government positions. This assumption was repeated when he ran for President.

I suspect he was not born in the US and may not even be a US citizen.

George Soros has been grooming him for the presidency since at least 2000. I'm sure with billions at his disposal George Soros spent whatever it took to sanitize Obamas past. The key here will be did Soros minions miss anything.

I also suspect even if Trump comes up with anything that looks suspicious it won't matter for this term. Democrats and their loyal servants in the MSM will close ranks and do whatever it takes to protect their Chosen One.

Substantial proof that Obama does not meet the requirements to be President might affect his chances of reelection but I doubt even that. The Republicans don't have a charismatic energizing candidate. Obama is said to have a campaign war chest of over a billion dollars. And that doesn't even count the billions of dollars of free sycophantic publicity the MSM will give him or the billions of dollars Soros funded PACs will spend for him.

I would love to see Trump prove Obama was not born in this country but ultimately I don't think it will matter even if he does.

Prepare to see Obama and Soros complete their destruction of the US economy and lay the framework for a European socialist style government by 2016.

I personally think the Government is playing Obama.
I have heard many many people say, "The Gov. puts whoever they want in there for president."
I'm sure you guys have heard this saying, too.
It really makes one think.. it could be possible.
I didn't vote in the last Election 'cause I knew who would win, obviously..
BUT I think something will come out on Obama. I mean it has to.
There's just too much hidden..


Off topic, as I'm new here, but how do I get an Avatar? I tried uploading one, but seems nothing is there.
Thanks.

Originally posted by wasco2
I have a valid Certificate of Live Birth, so do most Americans, so why can't Obama produce his?

See that word you used most? Meaning some don't. OK for the bazillionth time:

As I've stated numerous times before, I'm not in possession of my original BC. It was destroyed when the roof blew off our house when I was a kid during Hurricane Dora.

People seem to refuse to consider simple, realistic explanations such as theft, loss, fire etc. Stuff happens people. Ever lost your car keys, your wallet or your mind?

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Newsmax Poll: Trump Overwhelms Obama, GOP Field in 2012 Race
Important: Do You Support Pres. Obama's Re-Election? Vote Here Now!
550,000 responses,

www.newsmax.com...

82% hmmmmm?

Hmmmmm. Impressed with percentages? Me too.

So I decided to check out Demographics for Newsmax

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d6f5ab0e5c16.jpg[/atsimg]

A Trifecta of the Tea Party movement: OLD WHITE MEN. Not exactly representative of US population.

Please peeps, ALWAYS CONSIDER THE SOURCE. "He who asks the questions, controls the answers."

Originally posted by wasco2
Here's my take on the issue:

Obama acts like a man with something to hide and has spent significant money, even if not 2 mil, doing it.

The produced Certification of Live Birth is meaningless and not even accepted by the state of Hawaii as proof of birth there.

Short form birth certificate is meaningless? That's a stretch. Although I do have a torn long form birth certificate lying at home, I also have a short form birth certificate with the same contents as Obama and I have used it for years without incident. None of my family members have their original in possession believe it or not, I'm the only one from what I understand. I know of another lady from Hawaii who has what she assumed was her birth certificate, you want to see it?



When I asked her to show me her original birth certificate she showed me the one below:



She's been using BOTH of those with no issue, she does not have another long form, she's had these two.

You are being dishonest if you are to claim what Obama has presented is meaningless, especially if you ignore the fact most other presidents have not presented any evidencial documentation of their birth.

Holding Obama to your own personal standards only proves that this is a personal or political agenda, it doesn't make Obama stand out anymore than other presidents.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by Sinnthia

 

Sinnthia, you make some very good arguments, and you are perfectly justified in narrowing the argument about Obama down to the very specific, relavent points, and you are correct that I have not addressed those directly enough. The fact is, I am not a rabid birther, and I am exhausted of the argument. I have made better arguments, with more specific quotes, links, and docs in other threads, but I do not feel like rehashing it again. This is an argument that neither side can win definitively.

I believe you may have made better arguments in better times and I can see how this can get exhausting. I kind of hope then you can see the kind of disdain this argument fosters on a place like ATS. All politics aside, even you have to admit that whether there is something to it or not, there is a TON of BS tossed in the mix. The birther threads look like Billy Meiyer threads to me with a few decent arguments and then a ton of lies that trip over themselves all sourced back to Michael Horn, I mean WND, I mean Farrah. The admitted birther liar - WND admits lying.... Shameless self promotion aside. Let me show you what it looks like to me.

He needs to show his birth certificate!
Ok, his original long form birth certificate!
Ok, well it doesnt matter because his grandmother said he was born in Kenya.
Ok, well that doesn't matter anyway because his father was a British subject.
Ok, well that doesn't matter anyway because he became an Indonesian citizen.
Ok, well why can't we just see it? Does it say he is a Muslim?

Now in between each of those questions I find little more than blatant lies and a ton of misinformation. The most simple and I suppose most innocent is that people insist on seeing something without bothering to find out what it is they are looking for, or even looking at. I guess that goes hand in hand with the people that demand to see anything. Why? Are you going to personally confirm it is not a forgery? Are you going to confirm it is standard? Considering so few birthers seem to understand birth certificates at all, I find it doubtful they will know what to do with what they want when they finally get it. The BC being online all this time only backs that up.

This sort of stuff, it intersests me from a sociological standpoint but at the same time, I do get a bit angry when I come to ATS and see one subject so full of lies and easily checked missinformation not only finds a home, but is fed well and watered daily.

Today, I might be off my game a little, I was posting each time I walked through the family room, while a party is going on around the pool, deck, and kitchen. I have also had quite a few beers, and quite a lot of bikini distraction.

I read ATS a lot. I do not post until I am off my game . I find it more fun that way. Which makes

I do commend your argument style.

A frightening yet very appreciated compliment. Like I said before, you seem to rational for this argument. You make it hard to figure out how to deal with you. Then there is that whole mod thing.

One thing you have changed my mind about today is this: If the short form is an official document, and it officially certifies that he was born in Hawaii, then we have to accept it.

This is important right here. I am not about to say that it ends every birther argument dead in its tracks but it certainly highlights why I feel this issue needs to stop running in circles and be broken down, piece by piece.

This is not his originally issued long form birth certificate.
This is not his original long form, vaulted birth registration.
This is in fact a birth certificate.
We need to get that argument out of the way and move on to the next one. A lot of people still claim to have seen no BC but even many birthers acknowledge now they were in error without admitting it. Instead of acknowledging the short form is in fact a birth certificate, they have started more using the "original long form" argument. Why would they do that if the short form was still not a BC anway?

People that do claim it is not a BC do only that. They claim it is not a BC. They never have a reason or an argument for it. The only one I have ever even seen is "it doesn't look like mine" which invalidates my BC as well as my driver's license since those look different in different states.

In fact, each and every state has changed it's own form more than once. Just google a state BC. You will see a variety of different forms. So can we still say..."it doesn't look like mine?" I am willing to bet not one birther has the same BC as their grandparents. So where do we go with that argument.

The argument that has fallen by the wayside but Trump is trying to reinvigorate is the whole "COLB" nonsense. The reason this fails in so many ways is because of the different titles found on different state birth certificates. Anyone that understands what the wrods mean, should be able to get around that.

Certificate of live birth, Certification of birth, Certificate of birth, etc. These are all titles found on...
wait for it...
...
BIRTH CERTIFICATES. It is really quite simple. A "certificate of live birth" just in English means a certified documentation of that live birth. A birth certificate is a certified documentation of that live birth. Then there is the simple fact that Hawaii is hardly the only state to issue short forms instead of long forms. I live in NY. I have a short form. I have had a short from as long as I can remember and I have even had to replace it once. I had to apply for my BC and this is what I got. A short form titled, "Certification of birth." I got my passport, I hope I can be president. NY will not issue a long form. They do not do that anymore. What would someone like me do?
But more on that later.

If we don't accept it, then it means we don't trust the state of Hawaii. You have convinced me that we should accept the short form, but with this caveat, if we have to accept it for POTUS, then every Federal and State agency also has to accept it. We cannot have different sets of rules for different folks.

Hmmmm....Something tells me it is not really that easy for me to convince anyone of anything but I believe BH you are an honest guy.
But with this caveat. We do actually have to have different sets of rules for different people. We have to have rules for people that have no access to a long form. You cannot exclude the populations of entire states just because their state no longer provides them a long form.

BUT, the fact that this argument is still raging in the press and political circles, means that we have an obvious gap in our procedure. I believe we need a specific set of published guidelines, which documents are acceptable, who is responsible for receiving those documents, and the time frame that it must be completed in. If a short form is acceptable, then fine.

I can only agree with you a little here. I can agree that maybe something needs to be done to prevent this kind of rumor mongering from being able to foster but I honestly think the best thing for that would be education. If more people knew what a birth certificate actually was, we never would have had to have that part of the argument. In this day and age where most of those people are posting online, the fact that they cared too little to educate themselves says more to me about the people than the process.

I mean when you look passed what you might consider legitimate arguments and see all the nonsense being spewed, do you really want politics to cater to the mentally lazy, the liars, and the haters. Maybe that is needed but I cannot help but instead hope people will get smarter or try thinking things through more. I know, your idea of reform is probably far more realistic.

But...I am also stuck on the 'its still in the media' thing. I do not feel that actually gives the story any credit. David Icke still sells his million page books about the blood drinking lizard shape shifters that control everything in their 3000 year long quest to enslave us for our gold but I have a hard time feeling that exposes a glaring hole in our middle earth security. Likewise, I feel any kind of trash lingers in the media. Look at Charlie Sheen. I have a hard time believing he was getting so much air time because people supported the things he was saying. We watched and we talked but because we are a masochistic people that love to dwell on the insidiously absurd.

I just got crap in another thread because I admitted I watch Jersey Shore. I also admitted it is really trashy TV. I know people love to rag on me for even saying it, let alone actually doing it. But I need a good laugh now and then and shutting my brain off is hard. Jersey Shore works. The point is, that while I am certain most people that read that rolled their eyes in disgust, there is a 4th season and 2 spinoffs coming. Why is such crap not only lingering in the media but growing? Because like it or not, we are messed up in the head with what we like to talk about, watch, etc. I may be wrong but the ratings would suggest otherwise. I am actually watching PBS right now but ya know. I like my trash and I like my pork rhinds and I know I am not alone. Being popular, current, talked about, all that stuff does nothing to convince me it has any meaning. I am still looking for batboy because even he still gets mention so there must be something to it.

I honestly feel like the concerns you highlight have been addressed just that some people refuse to accept that. It comes across to me like trying to tell someone that we are alive but no matter what proof you offer, they refuse to accept it. At some point you have to feel the problem might not be with the show but with the audience.

I am a little tipsy and sunburnt right now, but I will research the REAL ID act tomorrow. Perhaps the guidelines in that act will satisfy everyone if they are adopted by all agencies?

Please let us know what you find out. Especially when it comes to things like if I were to apply for one of these positions you speak of in your state. I will never be able to get them a long form birth certificate from NY. The only people that can are older than me and very lucky to have never lost it. The excludes a lot of New Yorkers. This is why I ask, when you say that the short from was not enough because they also had to submit to lie detector tests, I am confused if you are saying a long form gets you out of those tests or if the point was a birth certificate, long or short, is just not enough rendering that argument moot? See, that is where that whole (I think he is too smart and perhaps too honest to make that argument, yet he is...) comes back into my head.

Thanks for taking the time to calm me down. I have wanted to have a real, rational, fact based, calm conversation with a birther for a very long time but I kind of gave up that hope and decided to just enjoy them. Many birther threads on ATS end with me asking someone to prove one of their claims. They just stop posting there. So I read lies and missinformation, then ask someone to convince me with facts and they run. It kind of sets my mind up a certain way and I appreciate you tossing in this actually productive feeling speed bump.

Originally posted by Habit4ming
Okay, sinnthia, then why don't you explain it to me? This is what you wrote:

"..Seeing as how so many of our early presidents fathers were born in a different country, your claim that they clearly meant to exclude people such as themselves from holding that office is specious at best..."

I took specious to mean insincere, deceptive. I am aware it can also mean apparent. I made no such claim that they "meant to exclude people such as themselves"--in fact, I am saying the opposite!

Sure thing. Let's start with what you wrote.

There are many sites/articles online confirming what our forefathers, who actually drafted the Constitution, meant by the term 'natural born citizen'...and Obama is not eligible due to his father being Kenyan.

And I suggested that many of our early presidents had foreign born parents. So you are stating they specifically meant to exclude themselves?

So your reply was

The framers had to grandfather themselves!! Geesh!!

Geesh, so the framers specifically state that no president should have foreign born parents but the framers did not count, because they grandfathered themselves in?

Uh huh. Which "framers?" Grandfathered themselves in thus leaving what you claim left to be true for future presidents? Jefferson? Maybe you are referring to Jackson? Buchanan? We are getting a little distance from that framing aren't we? Arthur? Wilson? Hoover? They grandfather themselves in or is it possible to be president with foreign born parents? I cannot find Hoover in my picture of the framing. Maybe the painter didn't like his face?