Attention all South Africans "A call to arms!"

reply to post by laslidealist


Stop being so blaze... your haughty attitude is the same as the elites' and non the better
. he is just voicing his opinion... me too don t buy into the "man-made" global warming... global warming per se on the other hand... well thats another thing...

They will, destroy what ever you have left in the name of profit, have a look at what natural gas has done to the QLD farmers, its a disaster all in the name of profit and to feed that consumption monster. Slippery company officials will make many promises and keep but one, they will have your gas. As for jobs, get real they mostly use outside labor, except for a few dog jobs that have no future given to some locals.

Originally posted by Gregarious
reply to post by wiser3

 

This guy is a complete idiot. He does not comprehend fraking, and he buys the elite lie of global warming, even after it was exposed as a hoax. You wasted my time spent reading this crap.

Stop living under a rock kid. Global warming is very real.

NOTHING has been disproven, you want to see the current research by non-believers ?
www.good.is...
Sorry, the non-believing scientists now are saying that climate change is real.

Yes, by all means, let's make sure we prevent Africa from exploiting the ONE natural resource it still has (that wasn't destroyed by colonization or helpful outside governments). God forbid they have any say in their own future.

Frac-ing takes place (typically; I don't know how deep these are) 1-2 miles underground. It is very localized (otherwise it would not work properly). Is South Africa pulling its water from that deep? I lived previously in five different states in the USA where hundreds of wells were drilled every year (and frac-ed) and the water was not contaminated. In the Fort Worth, Texas, area thousands of wells have been drilled in the past several years (Barnett Shale). Is the FTW water contaminated?

Drilling & completing wells is an extremely complicated process - for uneducated people to pretend they know anything about it is a laugh. Both the greenpeace article & the linked video contain a lot of contorted facts and ignorant statements.

FOR EXAMPLE: water fracturing is only ONE of several methods. Why are they harping on this one method?

In every situation it comes down to the negotiating skills of the entity that owns the mineral rights (in this case the govt of SA). Yes, oil companies take total advantage at every opportunity. Yes, you should trust an oil executive about as far as you can throw him. Yes, South Africa can demand contracts - if it chooses to do so - that will protect the environment to the best of the ability of current technology. Oil companies know how to do things properly, when they are required to do so. Before you start complaining - BP was not following those procedures properly in the gulf. BP has been responsible for some of the deadliest oil-related disasters of the past 20 years. Why were you so surprised??

I just want to point out that we watched the economy of New Mexico be destroyed based on misleading "scientific" tests performed by an environmental agency that made a mockery of the scientific method. They claimed that naturally occurring minerals (minerals not used in any way by the oil companies) were proof of contamination. It was a total farce, and no dissenting opinions were allowed to present facts for the legislature.

Be wary of environmental groups -

The best way to shut down drilling is to find an alternative source of energy. Worldwide supplies are dropping rapidly while demand goes up-up-up.

Originally posted by Gregarious
reply to post by wiser3

 

This guy is a complete idiot. He does not comprehend fraking, and he buys the elite lie of global warming, even after it was exposed as a hoax. You wasted my time spent reading this crap.

Ohhh hang on... Your one of these people that believe the Niger Delta never happened (and the holocost and the Gulf of Mexico and all the other disasters that have been unleashed on the world by madmen), and that everything big oil dose is in the best interests of human kind...

Oh, OK, since your so sure its all cool and stuff, I'll go with you then...

Lets Frak the whole planet...!!!

Cause they dont call it Fraking for nothing (just think of another word that sounds like it).... !!

And btw, when was global warming actually officially exposed as a hoax... I don't think I ever got that memo... is there ant scientific evidence to back it up?

reply to post by Schkeptick


Water in Africa, for your information, IS probably the MOST IMPORTANT and VALUABLE RESOURCE we in Africa still have and the area that they want to do this in is already arid. It has already been said by someone much more educated than I am that in future wars will be fought, not for oil, but for WATER! Not even an "educated and informed" person such as yourself can live without water! There are MANY other energy alternatives, they just aren't as financially rewarding for the multinational oil companies such as Shell and BP who have destroyed as they explored, drilled and exploited every step of the way all in the name of Big Oil and HUGE PROFITS!!

reply to post by Schkeptick


Yes when all is been and done, both sides have their own agendas, but lets be honest to many companies and their over paid experts, have stuffed it up far to many times, for what ever reason. FuKUsHima is a perfect example of resource management.

Not a lot of good comes from any of these mining, gas, oil companies other than recourses to feed human consumption and profit for the share holders and club members. It destroys the land, the water the air and most communities attached to the mine.

Often not considered is the real damage it does to any existing community, let me say once a mine moves in your kids wont be able to afford to rent a place due to all the new people in town, rents will go up as landlords prefer the highly paid miner to the existing town folk. The place will grow due to this and by the end of the day like a bubble it can burst and all the miners leave. Mining camps are an exception.

All the jobs promised will not happen, they are largely given to the experienced miners jumping from the last town, pubs will do great and if you are lucky a few of the locals get the odd job with no real future and some of the contractors get a few contracts to subby off to some poor slave that does the dirty work..

The mines will have great signs saying how safe they are and try to pretend that there all happy little miners, until it does go wrong. Your officials will clap along, as will the new wealthy those that sold their lands off to the mines during the mine buy up. Those that are left, get to put up with that constant rumbling which is what a mine does.

The share holders get fat and the public get very little, the politicians clap and say how great it all is, and we all get to consume.

I truly feel that the Mines and Gas and Oil companies should be paying big time, its a shame Rudd dropped his nuts, I would have taxed the mines, oil, gas hard. Instead the government worried about their own personal shares and interests chickened out and are now trying to blame those on mental health and the ones that are unemployed.

Not having a shot at you, I just feel that you left a whole lot out and thought I would throw my two cents in, apologies if I am a bit off topic, but mining, gas, oil in many ways are the same suit.

And to add from what I understand Gas companies and their Fracking it stuffed it up big time in OLD, I ant seen an angry mob of farmers in a while and they have to be pissed off to bother going to the city to protest.

I don't want S(hell) drilling in my country. The problem is that with the state of our government and all its corruption, it takes only one guy and some money under the table to destroy what is ours. We will have to make such a big noise to prevent this profit hungry beast to invade our beautiful place. I guess "f off" posters wont help. I believe the only solution would be to setup camp on that area, and wait for a couple weeks. We have 'laws' in this country that will allow you to claim that land as yours if you prove your ancestors lived there and was forcefully removed from it, by whites. I guess we can be corrupt as well and 'prove' someone stayed there. In retrospect, it seems that there is no real solution , but to have a weapon ready and shoot those corporate pigs right in there stupid pig faces!!!!

he indeed is correct on every point he makes.
i live in the RSA and we see this shtuff everywhere in africa none of the companies give a rats behind about anyone on this continent they merly come in and strip us of our rescourses then retreat back to the belly of the beast from which they came. they give us nice lip service and pay off our officials but when it all boils down too it they simply just want the worthless paper with numbers on it. they care little to none about our rich and diverse wildlife here.i feel so much pain in the depths of my soul, what could possibly make a human disregard another humans humanity.

reply to post by Respectisearned08


The companies only give a # about profit and thats that, all the rest is jam. And yes they get to leave your country and it is not their problem.

reply to post by wiser3

Look around the
world. Wherever you damage the environment you have conflict.

There you have it.

Thanks. S&F& :up

reply to post by soficrow


Succinct and to the point! Thank you! I couldn't and haven't said it better!

reply to post by marsend


oh i dont expect them to stay but they take the oil from our land then sell it back to us at extreme prices. im aware Africa isnt what many westerners would consider economicly developed place (besides the RSA). im just ranting im at wits end this blantant criminal activity and complete lack of respect for life and our plant. maybe i just dont fit in on this planet but apparently care for things with actual value like the planet the actually population of this planet and wildlife has made me a nut

reply to post by Respectisearned08


You're right, and when/if they do stay after they have messed up they get embroiled in legal cases that drag out for so long that the original filers/complainants are loooong dead and if lucky their great-great-great grandchildren MIGHT get a payout with which they could possibly, if THEY"RE lucky, be able to afford a Big Mac and fries! If it weren't so disgusting one could actually be excused for thinking it was a joke!

reply to post by wiser3

My man, i hear you! Shell should be cast out of our heaven on Earth, to some hellish place where all the sh't they ever spilt was their only drinking water. Everything you say i agree with, but i am sad that you propagate global warming in the shadow of everything else you stated. It's like receiving a kiss on one cheek and a slap on other cheek simultaneously. Be cool!

Hi all from a fellow South African.

What the rest of the world may also not be aware of is that the majority of the world's gold supplies came from Johannesburg. (It's a city named 'Egoli' which actually equates to City of Gold).

Many conglomerates took advantage of poor old SA back in the day and mined the cr@p out of it for something like 120 years. They then left their gold mines abandoned and derelict. This unfortunate happening resulted in the following impending disaster:

Quoted from a few different media sources in SA.

Millions of litres of highly acidic mine water is rising up under Johannesburg and, if left unchecked, could spill out into its streets some 18 months from now, Parliament's water affairs

Acid water is formed underground when old shafts and tunnels fill up. The water oxidises with the sulphide mineral iron pyrite, better known as fool's gold. The water then fills the mine and starts decanting into the environment, in a process known as acid mine drainage.

Mining started on the Witwatersrand about 120 years ago. More than 43 000 t of gold and 73 000 t of uranium have been extracted from the region's mines.

Mines dug more than a century ago stretching about 40 km (25 miles) along one of the world’s largest gold deposits have reached their water storage limit and will start leaking a toxic cocktail of chemicals in the coming months, independent experts and government officials have said.

If left unchecked, acidic mine water is expected to foul up works near the country’s famed Apartheid Museum, flood basements in downtown Johannesburg and then seep into the streets of the city of about 4 million people.

“The threat of acid water decanting from old mine workings is a real and present danger. It poses a threat to our economy, environment, health and history,” Terence McCarthy, a professor of geosciences at the University of Witwatersrand, wrote in a report.

Acid mine drainage has plagued derelict mines globally for decades but most of the damage has been in remote areas.

The problem for Johannesburg is that the city was built over its gold mines and that land now is home to some of the country’s biggest firms and greatest population densities.

About three years ago, the last major pump removing water from the mines stopped, signalling an end to a gold rush that brought wealth to a few while hundreds of thousands of black Africans went deep underground to dig.

Then the water began to accumulate in the massive underground cavities, reacting with rocks formed about 2.8 billion years ago and triggering chemical reactions that produced sulphuric acid, heavy metals, toxins and radiation.

The water, once several hundred metres underground, has been rising at an average rate of 15 metres per month, with the void expected to fill up completely in less than three years.

The leakage problems will be small at first and grow more costly the longer action is delayed, experts said.

McCarthy said the spillage can be avoided by immediately setting up two pump and treatment stations along the main gold reef to keep the water to at least 300 metres below the surface.

“The solutions are expensive, though not technically daunting — and must be implemented in a matter of months,” his report said.

PICKING UP THE BILL

The government agrees that urgent action is needed but has given little indication it will do anything before the acid water reaches underground facilities in Johannesburg.

A report from a government-appointed team of experts planned for release in early January has yet to see the light of day, prompting the opposition Democratic Alliance to say delays are putting lives at risk.

Along with finding a way to solve the problem, government has yet to figure out how to pay for it.

It cannot pass the bill onto firms since ownership of mines has changed hands so often and many firms have vanished. There also is not enough gold left to make it commercially viable for a new firm to go in — and pay for a clean up.

The environment ministry warned of the escalating costs of inaction about three years ago, saying in a report: “If the threat from acid mine drainage is not solved in the short to medium term, it is likely to persist for centuries to come.”

But environmental protection ranks low in the state’s budget with the government giving it half the funds it allocates to state workers to help them pay their rents and mortgages.

On top of the funding woes acid mine water clean up, the mining ministry is already struggling to fund a 1.46 billion rand ($202 million), 10-year plan for basic measures to prevent environmental damage from 6,000 ownerless and derelict mines.

BLIND HIPPOS AND RADIOACTIVE LAKES

“We will not allow the situation to get out of hand; it will not reach crisis proportion,” Sandile Nogxina, Department of Mineral Resources director-general, told parliament last year.

But it has let the problem grow in the western Johannesburg suburbs, where acid mine water began leaking in 2002.

In towns such as Krugersdorp, acidic lakes dot the landscape near mammoth, open piles of chemicals extracted from mines.

Signs warning of radiation are posted outside a sludge filled pool of a copper coloured liquid, hippos at a nearby nature reserve are going blind due to what is thought to be acid water run-off and fish are dying in polluted water near the Cradle of Humankind World Heritage Site — a rich fossil site providing clues on the origin of humans.

“There is not insufficient information. The fact that government has not acted is astonishing,” said Mariette Liefferink, CEO of the Federation for a Sustainable Environment, who has campaigned for acid mine water clean up.

Liefferink is an expert on the mountains of iron pyrite dumps and toxic water leaks in the area as well as the devastating impact the pollution has had on the poor.

She warns that the country’s water supplies are increasingly at risk the more toxic water nears the surface and mixes with supplies of fresh water.

“Over 120 years, there were more than 120 mining companies who passed on or externalised their costs,” she said.

“There are no short-term, medium or long-term plans put in place. It is just crisis management.”

Source: Reuters

Perhaps more relevant for South Africans:
There are some potentially explosive side-issues.
If two-thirds of SA has this gas, then why experimentally start with the Karoo?
The ANC is run mainly by the related Xhosa and Zulu ethnic majorities.
Why start on land that is in areas where the coloureds and whites have a cultural heartland?
Why not start in Zulu or Xhosa, or even Sotho tribal areas?
Why start in an area where the ANC does not have majority support?
"Jobs" are an emotive promise, and it will change the demographics (this after Jimmy Manyi already said the Cape has an over-concentration of coloreds www.news24.com...)
There are already conspiracy theories about the ruin of food production by removing the farmer in SA.
Whites are attacked and murdered, and intimidated off the land (often with their workers).
Land distribution to indiginous communities is mostly a costly failure, with once productive land being abandoned.
This also seems to happen deliberately. Carte Blanche showed last Sunday how farms distributed in the Richtersveld (another Khoi community) were deliberately sabotaged in favor of a mine that runs at a loss. beta.mnet.co.za...
So the notion is that the clearing of especially smaller scale farming is happening for some reason, and it leaves the land empty, or with squatters that nobody really cares about.
So this may be another element of conspiracies surrounding urbanization, and the growing monopolization of food production.
Killing many birds with one stone.

I don't agree with "taking up arms", or every letter in the speech.
What is sure is that the Karoo has productive industries.
These industries have worked reasonably well with the landscape for 2 centuries.
Nothing can live or grow in poisoned water - that is for sure. Even indigenous communities are gaining patent rights for "indegenous" knowledge to grow medicinal export herbs like Hoodia, Sutherlandia, Sceletium and others.

A worrying element is that gas development is run by petroleum bodies.
As the clip shows, this means gas fracking is not yet regulated by oil standards, and even in the US companies have only recently made the chemical contents in frack-water available.
While Texas may be well organized in dealing with waste (and the effects of ground-swell may take a decade or more to surface), I doubt we will be run that efficiently.
I doubt we can export the waste across state-lines and borders with the gas!
As the clip intimates, while the dangers of fracking become widely known in the US and other Western countries, this Haliburton technology will increasingly be out-sourced to Africa and other developing areas.
This merely reproduces the problem on foreign dependence for US energy needs, and the corruption and resentment associated with it.
They have knocked on our door, so that is obviously happening.

At least: with all the available land, I wish they wouldn't go straight for the Karoo.
Why always risk what works, instead of fixing what is already broken?
The Karoo (although somewhat smaller in local usage than implied by the satellite image): en.wikipedia.org...
It's home to the last speaker of !Xam and other Khoisan languages (www.khoisanpeoples.org...), unique flora with medicinal potential, and rare animals. Also famous for it's seasonal tapestry of flowers.
Traditionally a source of high-grade lamb and beef, it's proximity to the urban centers of Cape Town and the scenic Garden Route now means that ecotourism is a growing industry. This has brought a re-introduction and expansion of indigenous game.
Karoo Dawn:

reply to post by Schkeptick

I lived previously in five different states in the USA where hundreds of wells were drilled every year (and frac-ed) and the water was not contaminated. In the Fort Worth, Texas, area thousands of wells have been drilled in the past several years (Barnett Shale). Is the FTW water contaminated?

And how is that?

Could it be due to your occupation in the oil industry? Sounds like that is the real story. Maybe you didn't stick around long enough to see the consequences of your handiwork.

Drilling & completing wells is an extremely complicated process - for uneducated people to pretend they know anything about it is a laugh.

You don't have to understand the complicated process to know that the water in your well has been contaminated. You don't have to be an expert to develop cancer from poisons that seeped into your local environment.

Here is a video about the environmental impact of fracking from where it all began.

www.youtube.com...

How many children will die slowly from cancer from this process? Guess it doesn't bother the people who profit from this horribly environmentally damaging process.

Do Not- under any means- allow the Petroleum/Gas people into your country.

I understand the mess the mining companies left there- we have the same messes here.

They come in- rip up the land to get the ores, drench the ores with Arsenic solutions to separate the rock from ore and then put the Arsenic water into pits with little more than earthen sides. Many of them just dump it out.

They provide little employment as most of their system is mechanized now, and they sell the metals back to the State at massive cost.
They pay less than 1% on gross profit in taxes, then leave and change the name of the shell company or sell it and entangle it so that 'no one' is responsible for the Arsenic Pit clean up.

Meanwhile the Arsenic Pits are slowly leaching into the well water, which is watering 1/4 of the U.S.A.'s beef. And watering hay which is feeding the livestock also. Not to mention the direct poisoning to the humans there.

This is happening in Nevada right now. As Nevada is cutting school weeks down to 4 days as they can't afford to pay bus drivers and teachers, these bastards are coming in from out of State or out of the Country - taking Billions in Gold and Silver and leaving nothing but a toxic mess, broken roads from their heavy trucks and even more unemployed people.

DO NOT let Shell in- or ANY of the others.

Has anyone seen the documentary "Gasland" by Josh Fox?
It's worth a watch if you want to see how many people can now light their tap water and watch it explode in a fiery ball.
It isn't that nice to drink either I'm told
Oh and by the way, it wasn't caused by the fracking or the gas company so don't try to hold them accountable, it's entirely natural.