Are We (humans) really the Greys

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
I mean, think about it, would you ever see a cow flying an airplane? That may sound silly, actually it is, but my point is a cow wouldnt evovle to the point where it was smart enough to develop such things, because they cant manipulate their environment.

Can't manipulate the environment? What do you think is happening when they eat grass? Or walk on it for that matter. You must be thinking of the cows in the factory farming industry

If you trace our genetic ancestry back to its alleged roots you will find monkeys who swing from trees and fling poo. They evolved and can now be seen flying airplanes, silly but true.

By "manipulate" I meant things like, building a fire, making a hut, using tools for hunting... I dont see how cows manipulate anything. And what you said about monkeys is my whole point, they are bi-pedal! So its only inevitable that they would evovle to the point where they could fly airplanes! did you miss my point? The point I was trying to make is that, it seems like it would be near impossible for any species that isnt pi-pedal, to become advanced enough to the point where they could fly aircraft to other planets.. What I was trying to say is, I dont find it that surprising that aliens are bi-pedal.

Well your use of the word manipulate is simply wrong.

Again eating grass, walking on grass (killing life by doing so), are all ways they manipulate the environment. Did you miss my point? You don't see that it's manipulation because it's not as grand as turning lead to gold.

As far as bi-pedal being a prereq for the evolution of self-awarness, that doesn't really coincide with the evolution theory. I think that's more the biasness of a bi-pedal

ma�nip�u�late :To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner.
I guess the dictionary is wrong, too. I never said bi-pedalism is a prereq for self-awareness, I said that the only species that could become technologically advanced were bi-pedal species. Because of their ability to manipulate their environment (more so than cows!) We appear to have different ideas on the word manipulate, sure, by your definition, cows can manipulate their environment by stepping on grass, but stepping on grass wont get them anywhere near the ability to build aircrafts. Thats all im saying. Bi-pedal species can manipulate their environment more than any other species, so its only natural that they would become the smartest and most technologically advanced.

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
I mean, think about it, would you ever see a cow flying an airplane? That may sound silly, actually it is, but my point is a cow wouldnt evovle to the point where it was smart enough to develop such things, because they cant manipulate their environment.

Can't manipulate the environment? What do you think is happening when they eat grass? Or walk on it for that matter. You must be thinking of the cows in the factory farming industry

If you trace our genetic ancestry back to its alleged roots you will find monkeys who swing from trees and fling poo. They evolved and can now be seen flying airplanes, silly but true.

By "manipulate" I meant things like, building a fire, making a hut, using tools for hunting... I dont see how cows manipulate anything. And what you said about monkeys is my whole point, they are bi-pedal! So its only inevitable that they would evovle to the point where they could fly airplanes! did you miss my point? The point I was trying to make is that, it seems like it would be near impossible for any species that isnt pi-pedal, to become advanced enough to the point where they could fly aircraft to other planets.. What I was trying to say is, I dont find it that surprising that aliens are bi-pedal.

Well your use of the word manipulate is simply wrong.

Again eating grass, walking on grass (killing life by doing so), are all ways they manipulate the environment. Did you miss my point? You don't see that it's manipulation because it's not as grand as turning lead to gold.

As far as bi-pedal being a prereq for the evolution of self-awarness, that doesn't really coincide with the evolution theory. I think that's more the biasness of a bi-pedal

ma�nip�u�late :To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner.
I guess the dictionary is wrong, too. I never said bi-pedalism is a prereq for self-awareness, I said that the only species that could become technologically advanced were bi-pedal species. Because of their ability to manipulate their environment (more so than cows!) We appear to have different ideas on the word manipulate, sure, by your definition, cows can manipulate their environment by stepping on grass, but stepping on grass wont get them anywhere near the ability to build aircrafts. Thats all im saying. Bi-pedal species can manipulate their environment more than any other species, so its only natural that they would become the smartest and most technologically advanced.

Bi-pedal species can manipulate their environment more than any other species, so its only natural that they would become the smartest and most technologically advanced

Now that's a much better way of saying it =)

Ok so you're saying bi-pedalism is a prereq for becoming technologically advanced.

I said that the only species that could become technologically advanced were bi-pedal species

But not a prereq for consciousness or self-awarness.

I never said bi-pedalism is a prereq for self-awareness

According to evolutionary psychology the two beget the other.

I agree being a bipedal has advantages in ones ability to manipulate the environment, thus it would seem that would help set the stage for the evolution of mind...so it would seem.

Are there not bipedal species that evolved from a quadrupedal states? This could be the evolutionary path for the cow. I would also like to point out that the Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal but had retarded hands, hardly capable of "manipulating" the environment.

Bipedal? The legs? Seems to me you are actually pointing the emphasis on the hands. Cows do not have functional hands which seems to be the primary force in "manipulation". So maybe they are not the prime canidates.
Rats have decently functional hands. Maybe they will fly saucers eventually.

Point is the scientific community isn't sure what's responsible for the evolution of mind or what it takes for a species to become technologically advanced. The only thing that is really certian is times role in it. Enough time elapses and $hit is bound to change. It's too early to assume cows won't eventually evolve to flying planes.

[edit on 10-10-2004 by Lucid Lunacy]

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Alec Eiffel

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
I mean, think about it, would you ever see a cow flying an airplane? That may sound silly, actually it is, but my point is a cow wouldnt evovle to the point where it was smart enough to develop such things, because they cant manipulate their environment.

Can't manipulate the environment? What do you think is happening when they eat grass? Or walk on it for that matter. You must be thinking of the cows in the factory farming industry

If you trace our genetic ancestry back to its alleged roots you will find monkeys who swing from trees and fling poo. They evolved and can now be seen flying airplanes, silly but true.

By "manipulate" I meant things like, building a fire, making a hut, using tools for hunting... I dont see how cows manipulate anything. And what you said about monkeys is my whole point, they are bi-pedal! So its only inevitable that they would evovle to the point where they could fly airplanes! did you miss my point? The point I was trying to make is that, it seems like it would be near impossible for any species that isnt pi-pedal, to become advanced enough to the point where they could fly aircraft to other planets.. What I was trying to say is, I dont find it that surprising that aliens are bi-pedal.

Well your use of the word manipulate is simply wrong.

Again eating grass, walking on grass (killing life by doing so), are all ways they manipulate the environment. Did you miss my point? You don't see that it's manipulation because it's not as grand as turning lead to gold.

As far as bi-pedal being a prereq for the evolution of self-awarness, that doesn't really coincide with the evolution theory. I think that's more the biasness of a bi-pedal

ma�nip�u�late :To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner.
I guess the dictionary is wrong, too. I never said bi-pedalism is a prereq for self-awareness, I said that the only species that could become technologically advanced were bi-pedal species. Because of their ability to manipulate their environment (more so than cows!) We appear to have different ideas on the word manipulate, sure, by your definition, cows can manipulate their environment by stepping on grass, but stepping on grass wont get them anywhere near the ability to build aircrafts. Thats all im saying. Bi-pedal species can manipulate their environment more than any other species, so its only natural that they would become the smartest and most technologically advanced.

Bi-pedal species can manipulate their environment more than any other species, so its only natural that they would become the smartest and most technologically advanced

Now that's a much better way of saying it =)

Ok so you're saying bi-pedalism is a prereq for becoming technologically advanced.

I said that the only species that could become technologically advanced were bi-pedal species

But not a prereq for consciousness or self-awarness.

I never said bi-pedalism is a prereq for self-awareness

According to evolutionary psychology the two beget the other.

I agree being a bipedal has advantages in ones ability to manipulate the environment, thus it would seem that would help set the stage for the evolution of mind...so it would seem.

Are there not bipedal species that evolved from a quadrupedal states? This could be the evolutionary path for the cow. I would also like to point out that the Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal but had retarded hands, hardly capable of "manipulating" the environment.

Bipedal? The legs? Seems to me you are actually pointing the emphasis on the hands. Cows do not have functional hands which seems to be the primary force in "manipulation". So maybe they are not the prime canidates.
Rats have decently functional hands. Maybe they will fly saucers eventually.

Point is the scientific community isn't sure what's responsible for the evolution of mind or what it takes for a species to become technologically advanced. The only thing that is really certian is times role in it. Enough time elapses and $hit is bound to change. It's too early to assume cows won't eventually evolve to flying planes.

[edit on 10-10-2004 by Lucid Lunacy]

Yes, I am putting more emphasis on the hands I suppose, although the legs have a role in it too. Im not saying all bi-pedal species will become advanced, thats ridiculous, but it appears that the only advanced species is bi-pedal, as far as we know. There are exceptions of course, which you pointed out for instance, the T-rex. And maybe, a humaniod rat will be flying aircraft to other planets in millions of years. You say cows could eventually evolve to the point where they could fly airplanes, this is true, but my point is they would most likely be bi-pedal by the time that happened. I think we got too caught up in the details, but hopefully we can both agree, that it isnt too surprising that descriptions of visitors from other planets flying advanced aircraft are a bi-pedal species?

I don't know enough about the evolution theory to be sure, but maybe bipedalism is a prereq for the evolution of a functional hand? Perhaps Tyrannosaurs was a quadrupedal recently turned bipedal? Which is why the hands were not quite functional yet? If this is the case then indeed it isn't surprising that the extraterrestrials are bipedals.

Since we are on the discussion of evolution and aliens I would like to pose a theory of my own (probably not mine).

What if the cataclysmic event that destroyed the dinosaurs didn't actually cause them to go extinct. Killed most but not all, forcing the remaining to become more social and develop strategy to kill prey. Thus setting the stage for evolution of mind. They certianly had enough time...considering how much time it supposedly took us. So they evolved to become the infamous reptilian aliens. If this did happen they certainly had enough time to become as or more evolved then us...enough time to cover their tracks before they left. Some people say it's mathematically improbable that aliens would visit our planet due to the enormosity of the universe. So if the reptilian aliens originated from this planet it would clearly get around that problem. Just a thought.

*Edit: this idea seems interesting to me now haha. Im gonna start a thread for it.

[edit on 10-10-2004 by Lucid Lunacy]

Whoa, what's up with all the quoting Lucid Lunacy and Alec Eiffel?

Anyways, I'm still not convinced why an alien species would have to be bi-pedal in order to become the most advanced on their planet.

The rule of bi-pedalism as a required characteristic to become advance on a planet surely applies to our earth, but why would it apply to some other planet? Don't the environment and their unique evolutionary pathway have to decide to what features are needed to become the most advanced on their planet? Therefore, unless that planet has an environment similar to ours, the most advanced species there would not have to bi-pedal.

I don't think that cows or rats will eventually be flying planes as long as humans dominate the land. I wonder what would happen if somehow all the land animals on this planet were destroyed. What species from the ocean would take over the land? Would that species eventually evolve into a bi-pedal one?

Originally posted by jp1111

Anyways, I'm still not convinced why an alien species would have to be bi-pedal in order to become the most advanced on their planet.

The rule of bi-pedalism as a required characteristic to become advance on a planet surely applies to our earth, but why would it apply to some other planet? Don't the environment and their unique evolutionary pathway have to decide to what features are needed to become the most advanced on their planet? Therefore, unless that planet has an environment similar to ours, the most advanced species there would not have to bi-pedal.

Im not saying advanced species have to bi-pedal on other planets, what Im saying is that advanced species capable of flying to other planets in aircraft they design would MOST likely be bi-pedal with functional hands. Indeed, on some planets something similar to a dolphin would be the smartest. But what im talking about is a species that is capble of inter-planetary travel, would most likely be bi-pedal with functional hands.

The Bible is full of signs if we only take the time to see what the fore- fathers have given us. If we look at it and see that the angels that was thrown down from the heavenly places, not nessessarly our heaven, but the universe that God gave them to rule, we'll see that it is told that they will interject them selves into our presence in the end of this dispensation. it is told that one of the signs of the end will be the appearence of things in the sky/heavens and that their activity will increase the closer we get to the new era...they, what ever will not be taking into consideration our best intrest so i would think all the sightings and contacts are just the beginning for something substantial to come...

Originally posted by jp1111

Originally posted by kode

Originally posted by Biggie
Humans evolving into become taller, stronger, and more intelligent may be more a product of modern technology then evolution. That is, people are taller and stronger because of better nutrition and health care, and more intelligent because of increased access to information

But couldn�t that be classed as evolution or does it have to be a biological?

Evolution is a product of both biological and environmental factors. As environment changes, species acquire new traits in order to survive the changes, through adaptations. These new traits are passed through generations over a long period which is evolution. Mutations also play a part in evolution. This is specialization.

Contrary to that, in our case, today, WE are changing our own environment to make it suit our needs. Now, this is generalization.

We may be becoming smarter, healthier, and technologically more advanced, however, this could prove harmful to us and to other organisms. Look at extinction rates of the different organisms due to human interferences in their natural habitats. Look at the destruction of the ozone layer.

That's true but we will still have to adapt to the environment that we create. Maybe the prolonged use of computers will cause some sort of evolution. There is also the possibility that humans will speed up evolution by using genetic engineering at some point in the future.


[edit on 28-10-2004 by Sabre262]

I dont think that you realize it but human evolution is over, there is no more natural selection. Everyone has kids!
Do you even know what evolution is? You said radiation? Radiation kills you, destrsoi your DNA, you die!

time traveling in a delorian? you think they still need to get up to 85 mph?

Well we only have a few thousand years left before an ice age so it cant be that far in the future unless we survived the Ice age and adapted our bodies?

Originally posted by Pavel
I dont think that you realize it but human evolution is over, there is no more natural selection. Everyone has kids!
Do you even know what evolution is? You said radiation? Radiation kills you, destrsoi your DNA, you die!

We don't know what will happen in the future and it isn't true that everyone has kids. Conditions may force us to use genetic engineering to adapt us to changing conditions, we might decide to do it so we can interface with technology and process information better or a tyrant might take control and force selective breeding/genetic engineering on us to try to create "superhumans". Any of these things would cause a dramatic change in our evolution, for better or worse. Even if none of this happens I'm sure the human race will not be exactly as it is today in a million years if our species survives that long.

[edit on 29-10-2004 by Sabre262]

I don't believe evolution has stopped for humans, it has just slowed down alot because of our technological advancements. If we can't do something, we invent something to do it for us, alot quicker than we could in the past. We now have machines on our side to help us evolve...in a strange way. Machine's help us make new things faster, all we need is an idea and in quite a short time, that idea is a reality.

Invention is faster than evolution. If we can invent a helmet that gives us telepathic abilities, there is no point evolving that ability. If we can drive a car @ 100mph down the motorway, there is no need to evolve being able to run @ 100mph.

EDIT:

Someone mentioned genetic engineering. If we can just fiddle with our DNA and give us the ability to run @ 100 mph or be telepathic, again, there is no point of evolving those skills.

[edit on 30-10-2004 by mouldy_punk]