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Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Amaterasu
We can just save a lot of time by not agreeing. Because this can only go one way.
You: We can have unlimited everything with free energy, anti-gravity and robots that the government is hiding from us.
Me: No, science fiction. There will always be things that are scarce. Free energy is not going to breed dolphins, whales and bring back endangered species. Disease doesn't disappear with energy.
You are making an uneducated guess as to what the world would be like if it had all the elements you wish it had. I suggest writing fiction, because that is what it is.
A realistic view of the world would keep you from making such outlandish presumptions about the world.
If you didn't notice, there are many groups of humans on this rock. Not all of them want robots and flying cars.... It is a little arrogant to say you've figured out the entire Earth's population.
Hypothetically: If the government was hiding all the things you say it is, why would your opinion matter if they released it? All the things you talk about need to be done through central leadership.
Your outline is the equivalent of a futuristic hippie commune, and if you didn't notice, hippie communes didn't last long and they applied to a small group of people, not the entire population.
We don't eat dolphin as a rule, or whale - or most of the endangered species, either. What's these have to do with the price of tea in China? So to speak. This is irrelevant.
And, no, disease does not disappear, however... With money no longer a motive for maintaining illness (pharmaceutical companies LOVE illness), the many cures that have been suppressed and hidden will come forth, and most disease will vanish.
LOLOL! It's not realistic to see the Interweb. It's not realistic to see the state of robot development. It's not realistic to take knowledge I have of electrogravitics and put these pieces together. I guess, dude.
The neat thing about abundance is that IF YOU DON'T WANT IT YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE IT. It is no arrogance. It is an understanding that CHOICES will be available. Nothing will force anyone to have something they don't want, but if it's there they can have it if they want. It's a little arrogant to say that, because some don't want these things, no one may have them.
The Interweb allows self governance with NO central control. Leaders will emerge as any problem crops up. And with money out of the picture as motivation, the problems will be solved efficiently, honestly and with betterment always foremost.
t is something new to Human society. For the first time Humans will have a surplus of energy available. So flinging out scarcity paradigm analogies is pointless. But since you are so sure of this, rather than flinging it out, show how this is so.
Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Amaterasu
We don't eat dolphin as a rule, or whale - or most of the endangered species, either. What's these have to do with the price of tea in China? So to speak. This is irrelevant.
Those are just two examples. Cod, Tuna, Pollack, etc.
And, no, disease does not disappear, however... With money no longer a motive for maintaining illness (pharmaceutical companies LOVE illness), the many cures that have been suppressed and hidden will come forth, and most disease will vanish.
Fiction.
LOLOL! It's not realistic to see the Interweb. It's not realistic to see the state of robot development. It's not realistic to take knowledge I have of electrogravitics and put these pieces together. I guess, dude.
Taking my words out of context. I'm referring to the human condition. And not everything that is in theory/prototype stage is ready for mass development. So if you think we would have flying cars within a few weeks because they have a new energy source you are sadly mistaken.
The neat thing about abundance is that IF YOU DON'T WANT IT YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE IT. It is no arrogance. It is an understanding that CHOICES will be available. Nothing will force anyone to have something they don't want, but if it's there they can have it if they want. It's a little arrogant to say that, because some don't want these things, no one may have them.
We already established there can be no abundance. Do you get it, your opposite of abundance is scarcity. And there will always be scarcity. If energy is unlimited there are still limited numbers of other things in the world. The whole idea is flawed.
The Interweb allows self governance with NO central control. Leaders will emerge as any problem crops up. And with money out of the picture as motivation, the problems will be solved efficiently, honestly and with betterment always foremost.
Where does this come from? It's like saying, oh things will be great, this will happen and this and this and this. It's just blah blah blah. How is the leadership working on the internet now.... oh wait, it' s messed up cause were in a scarcity paradigm, right...
t is something new to Human society. For the first time Humans will have a surplus of energy available. So flinging out scarcity paradigm analogies is pointless. But since you are so sure of this, rather than flinging it out, show how this is so.
Wow, another crackpot asking people to prove them wrong. Since this is your theory, and you developed it, show us the work you did to come to your conclusions. Why is it every time someone makes something up it is up to everyone else to show them they're wrong? Because this is a social change you are proposing, just show instance in history where it works. (Oh but you can't cause everything was in a scarcity paradigm...) Convenient...
Your very argument that, the human condition will change because we have unlimited energy is flawed.
There is no basis on reality for that assumption.
It was cooked up in your head.
It's like saying, "if I had a million-ca-jillion dollars I'd be super happy"
More irrelevancy.
I KNOW that cannabis flower produces a marvelous anti-cancer oil. Can we use it? No. Is it heralded in the media? No. Is it thereby suppressed? Yes. Why? Because the pharmaceutical companies want you paying for "treatments" they have patented and don't want this threat to be known.
A few weeks? No. Months from the time the tech is released, though. I mean, they have had 50+ years to R&D in electrogravitics - and you can bet your ass they've been doing just that - so I expect marvels. (And, no, I didn't take your words out of context. Maybe a re-read would help...)
We have done no such thing. Do you get it? We have a number of things NOW that Humans have never had before. I never said "unlimited everything" (how many times, man, how many times do I have to say?). Abundance means we can feed, clothe and house everyone richly and still have plenty left over. You just can't get past nitpicking specific commodities. In tropical places, tropical fruits and plants will fill the needs, in temperate areas, temperate crops, and if some places fall short they can call out via the Interweb and excess will be moved to where it is needed.
Wow, another shill...er...individual playing the name-calling-instead-of-tackling-the-request game. Why is it every time someone offers ideas to solve things, when such...individuals...make blanket statements and are asked to support them, snide name-calling is the response - NOT an honest attempt to show their thinking?
Convenient? I think not. Would LOVE to show you, but I can't - again, for the bazillionth time - THERE HAS NEVER BEEN THESE ELEMENTS AVAILABLE TO HUMANITY BEFORE.
Oh, good! Tell me how!
Nope. That was a blanket statement... (And the deduction comes from the FACT that money represents accounting for energy expended and infinite energy effectively means infinite money which has no social application... No basis in reality my foot!)
Another blanket statement - still not telling me the rational path to "Your very argument that, the human condition will change because we have unlimited energy is flawed."
How is it like that?
A few weeks? No. Months from the time the tech is released, though. I mean, they have had 50+ years to R&D in electrogravitics - and you can bet your ass they've been doing just that - so I expect marvels. (And, no, I didn't take your words out of context. Maybe a re-read would help...)
Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Amaterasu
More irrelevancy.
Food is pretty relevant. You want to get rid of money but how does that work with a limited food supply? Everything is abundant... right, except food.
I KNOW that cannabis flower produces a marvelous anti-cancer oil. Can we use it? No. Is it heralded in the media? No. Is it thereby suppressed? Yes. Why? Because the pharmaceutical companies want you paying for "treatments" they have patented and don't want this threat to be known.
If you know than why don't you make the oil and cure cancer for everyone. It's pretty hard to reject something when it works.
A few weeks? No. Months from the time the tech is released, though. I mean, they have had 50+ years to R&D in electrogravitics - and you can bet your ass they've been doing just that - so I expect marvels. (And, no, I didn't take your words out of context. Maybe a re-read would help...)
For one, you don't have any knowledge about electrogravitics, you have a belief and opinion. If you want to build me a spaceship than by all means go for it. I'll be your number one supporter. That would be if you had knowledge about what you claim.
We have done no such thing. Do you get it? We have a number of things NOW that Humans have never had before. I never said "unlimited everything" (how many times, man, how many times do I have to say?). Abundance means we can feed, clothe and house everyone richly and still have plenty left over. You just can't get past nitpicking specific commodities. In tropical places, tropical fruits and plants will fill the needs, in temperate areas, temperate crops, and if some places fall short they can call out via the Interweb and excess will be moved to where it is needed.
See this is where your theory falls flat on it's face. We are supposed to be 'abundant' but there will be things that are not? So nitpicking.... is considering more than one factor.... hmm... crackpot ideas always leave out variables...
I'll give you an example, when oil was first discovered it was abundant, energy was abundant, and all it did was spur population growth. Oh, but we didn't have robots then... or antigravity cars... (according to you we have them and they are ready for everyone)... So what about third world countries? Are they trained to program, maintain and control robotic systems...?
You food theory is nonsense. We just pass the food around to everyone... You admit that food won't be abundant but then you say we can just spread it around to everyone....
If people are limited by their regional jurisdiction how does that fit in with your 'everyone can have everything idea'
Wow, another shill...er...individual playing the name-calling-instead-of-tackling-the-request game. Why is it every time someone offers ideas to solve things, when such...individuals...make blanket statements and are asked to support them, snide name-calling is the response - NOT an honest attempt to show their thinking?
I've poked tons of holes in your theory and so has any critical thinking person with a half-brain on this forum who has decided to debate with you. You have an argument that never stops because any time you hit something contrary to your belief you simply make things up.
Convenient? I think not. Would LOVE to show you, but I can't - again, for the bazillionth time - THERE HAS NEVER BEEN THESE ELEMENTS AVAILABLE TO HUMANITY BEFORE.
There have been lots of things that were never available to humanity before, and when they got them, look what they did with them. Seriously, try and factor in the human condition into your little fantasy.
Oh, good! Tell me how!
Throughout history there are people that have had abundant everything. Look at old monarchs for one. It never changed their outlook. And we have already established that not everything will be abundant in your world, meaning it is still a scarcity paradigm
Nope. That was a blanket statement... (And the deduction comes from the FACT that money represents accounting for energy expended and infinite energy effectively means infinite money which has no social application... No basis in reality my foot!)
Strange I could have sworn money existed before electricity was understood and used.
Oh right but we have infinite energy now? Except that you can't hook up electrodes to the human body, people have to eat food and expend energy to function. People still have to think, breath, move, repair things, build things, etc, etc.
Another blanket statement - still not telling me the rational path to "Your very argument that, the human condition will change because we have unlimited energy is flawed."
Just give me one example of humans acting completely rational throughout a lifetime. Coming from such an irrational argument, it is ironic that you think people will all of a sudden embrace love and piece because they got a new toy.
How is it like that?
1. Because it's not realistic.
2. Because it's not backed by anything.
Originally posted by jackflap
Alright guys, let's take it easy and consider letting chemist in on the big secret that we all know about work. I mean he's obviously not ready for such knowledge yet but he seems to be at his wits end. Are we going to give him a break or not? Just remember how it was when we all didn't know the secret.
Cute. Nice jigger-polkary. Food is important. Any specific food item is NOT. There is plenty of food for us on this planet. That's my point. Food is vastly abundant.
Between 1950 and 1984, as the Green Revolution transformed agriculture around the globe, world grain production increased by 250%. The energy for the Green Revolution was provided by fossil fuels in the form of fertilizers (natural gas), pesticides (oil), and hydrocarbon fueled irrigation
Um, there's a guy in Canada that was (is?) doing just that - giving it away to those in need. He did a piece called "Run From the Cure." The Canadian and US (!) governments harassed him and tried to arrest him and otherwise cause him grief. Most have never heard of him. Why? Because the media never cover widely any real cures. Their corporate masters would never allow it.
No. I have MEMORIES. And analysis based on MEMORIES. And knowledge based on documentation and MEMORIES. If you'll be my number one supporter, finance my work and I'll make sure you have one. Otherwise, such infantile comments are best left unsaid.
Dude, it falls apart because, though everyone can eat organic fruits, vegetables, legumes, roots and meats, they cannot eat lobster everyday? Get real. Tell the starving child that he gets nothing to eat if he wants lobster. Say, sure, we have food - good wholesome food - but no lobster, so you must starve to death.
I am so sick of you putting words into my virtual mouth. Energy was only apparently abundant. There were (and are) still those who controlled the energy, and only some got rich. Most stayed in poverty. I NEVER SAID ROBOTS AND ANTIGRAV ARE READY FOR EVERYBODY. Geez. But YOU say I did. As for third world countries - as they have the chance (as we bring the means to them) to ask for things, they will be given.
Have you read my book, The Abundance Paradigm? You might want to read that. Maybe you will grasp the abundance paradigm.
the sum is far more than we can consume. We ALL can feed ourselves richly with what this planet provides.
No limitation per se. If there is a need, it can be covered from anywhere with surplus. Read my book. media.abovetopsecret.com...
Who is making things up? (So far you have made up at least two things THIS THREAD that "i" said - which I never said. Yeah. I make things up.) And rather making the "you simply make things up" blanket statement, why don't you try LISTING them.
It's all ABOUT the Human condition and making a radical change for the better by virtue of guidelines set in the Ethical Planetarian Party platform. While, you're at it...instead of being rude and calling my ideas "fantasy" in that blanket statement - PROVE IT.
You are looking at money aggregated to SOME. NOT (effectively) EVERYBODY with money. That is what infinite money does. It gets rid of the need for money such that everybody may partake of the abundance on this planet. The monarchs held the energy (which was scarce for virtually all) and reveled in their power over others.
Now you're showing how very poor your reading skills are. Look at my statement. Do you see "electricity" there anywhere. Look really closely. Nope. Just "energy." Energy - as in the sweat off one's brow energy. Energy as in what you can get your mule to do energy. Energy as in what the water provides as you float your crop downstream to market energy. Energy.
Yes, the universe is FULL of energy and we can extract it and we can build robots to organically tend our fields and deliver the produce. People will still do all of that list of yours - just not motivated by money.
Humans are loving, PEACEful Beings. Money twists them away from that. And what "irrational argument" are you talking about? Or is that more of your blanket statement penchant?
Originally posted by DevilJin
Originally posted by jackflap
Alright guys, let's take it easy and consider letting chemist in on the big secret that we all know about work. I mean he's obviously not ready for such knowledge yet but he seems to be at his wits end. Are we going to give him a break or not? Just remember how it was when we all didn't know the secret.
How about you guys stop commenting and see if he is going to respond? I mean, this is the best troll thread ever. He made 1 post and he now has a 7 page thread.
Ridiculous.
Originally posted by TheChemist187
I would like to know why? I see them here rambling on illegal immigration and on dumb as conspiracy's about the lamest # like whats behind the new US Air force commercial when they save people off a bridge they think because the city is destroyed there is something behind that. I see of katie perry and E.T. now I mean seriously WTF? I saw one about hollywood about how movie predictions have come true about the golf and japan. I mean those are #ing movies, there are bound to be some similarities.
I think those people should stop all this bull# and look for a job.