Who were you???

reply to post by Nola213


wow!! that was an amazing read, i for one am very pleased you posted this it does make you think.

reply to post by zbeliever


Yes I believe many of us like to play here and others are trapped here, but the goal here it seems to me was to learn, advance in our spiritual development. Some I feel after exposure will remember parts of the past and others will remember it all and yet others have been in on it since begenning if you can imagine them cheating time and death with tech. Why keeping the rest in dark.

Hi JR,

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
reply to post by Tayesin

 

I suppose in the older Hindu traditions, where animal reincarnation is considered part of the plan, a person could imagine "souls" choosing to incarnate into various beasts?

I know, not probably currently popular with the more undated / enlightened, but as I said, more in the old tradition. Except it always struck me as absurd, people somehow "learning" from the life of a dog, etc. A real stretch for me.

I can't imagine souls choosing lower animal forms after having human experience. So to me the Hindu concept is a control mechanism to keep people in their strictly limited roles, as per Indian culture. It's akin to religions view of Hell in a sense.

At the moment I don't know for sure, but opportunity for life experience on earth began a very long time before the human form was developed here, in which case there may be an even vaster history for souls here. In ancient pre-Druid tradition we lived first as Rocks, then plants, then animals and finally humans.

I know that goes against the grain of our modern thinking, but it tugs at me from time to time to investigate for myself. One day I may allow myself the luxury of exploring it directly.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
But I would make a further point, related to the issue of "meaninglessness" and animals. Whether a "soul" comes into it, or not, I would not be able to say, but when Bambi dies terribly in the woods, the "tragedy" might go beyond the various human experiences, which could always be imbued with meaning, even if only from the perspective of those observing that other's misfortune.

To be clear, we can imagine "Bambi", a little deer, living in remote early America, in an area where even Indians will not venture into for centuries. Perhaps thousands of years ago, there is a forest fire! Lightning, probably. Somewhere, in the vast forests, now burning, the little deer is "afraid". She has never known fire, the smell of smoke is in the air, her mother is no where to be found, etc. She dies (eventually), after tremendous suffering, smoke inhalation, panic, even perhaps the heat of flames licking her ears, coming closer...

AND YET, not even a Native Indian will stumble upon her charred remains afterward. Sure, perhaps if they had, a "lesson" would be learned somewhere, but in my example, no humans involved. None at all. Times a billion similar, and just as "cruel" completely unknown, and seemingly "meaningless" deaths.

Excellent scenario and questioning.. it's what made me have to wait to reply while the mind was fresh.

It seems to me all life has self-awareness. I see my pets thinking before taking action. I see native animals thinking before deciding on action too. So to me all forms of life are aware of their self in their form, and this must lead me towards thinking they are a soul portion having an experience on offer here.

In which case we may not yet grasp the meaning from Bambi's perspective because as humans we do not consider all other animals as being Self-Aware. So saying "meaningless death".. from our human perspective would be very much correct. And yet to the portion of awareness having that experience it would not be meaningless.

Bambi's mother would feel loss as we do... I know animals do.. I had a small welsh pony as a young lad who lost her foal and was distraught over it so much they she ran off for the day.. only to return late afternoon as I was calling out to her in sorrow. She ran up the mountain path and stopped right next to me.. I could see the same kind of pain in her eyes as I do with those who have lost a friend, partner, etc. The depth of her sorrow was immense... and it was palpable to me.

From my perspective, all life in the universe is Souls having experiences. So I must include "lesser" forms of life too. But I do not abide with the concept of Karma causing us to have a next life of a dog, for instance.

Originally posted by JR MacBeth
Is this the "real" universe? Or, do today's New Age belief systems also account for this, just as the more absurd Hindu versions, with silly karmic notions, that defy reason? At what point are we stretching things so much, that the enigma that is life, is seen for what it is, and we humbly acknowledge, "this makes no sense..."?

Well, these are beliefs we're dealing with, but while I can see some seemingly meaningless deaths/sufferings as perhaps having some "value" somehow, the universe in general seems to disagree, and perhaps even laugh a little, as we desperately grasp for comfort, amidst so much chaos.

Good question. Must say here I'm not a new-ager despite having worked in the Industry for a while. New-age has a set of Beliefs, and I refuse to hold any Beliefs because experience shows me any Belief will Limit our ability to expeirence outside the Box.

Things don't have to make sense to us all the time at this mundane human level of awareness.. if it did we would never grow beyond our Indoctrinated or attached Belief-Systems. It's not until one experiences themselves at the Soul level that things begin to make perfect sense.. and the new-age is not about showing people how to easily awaken to that level of awareness.. it is more about making money, living THE Lifestyle and gaining Followers.. just like everything humans have done in the past.... we are dumb creatures it would see, lol.

So at some levels of awarness in this universe, the mundane levels we experience daily, life seems to have little or no meaning other than what we are indoctrinated into Believing.

At the next level "up" from the mundane day to day, we can find some small meaning to it, yet still not grasp the bigger picture in any way.. this is where the New-Age Industry is found... and Religions.

"Above" that level is when we begin to see the absolute Perfection of the interactions in all life.. where the meanings we thought we understood get turned on their head due to their inadequacies.. their Inherent Limitations... and where no amount of money spent in the New Age Industry.. or Faith in the Religions could possibly hope to have a frame of reference for... they all reach their Boundary well before this level of Awareness.

I've often said we humans think way too small.. it offends some people who do not see the simplest message in the statement. But those who do not see really are not ready to see yet, hence why the information grinds against their Beliefs so heavily and annoys them.

You sir, think deeply, ask excellent questions, and this illustrates a healthier approach to the questions of life. Kudos to you.

PS.. not sure if I answered any of your questions adequately anough.. sorry if I haven't.

reply to post by Tayesin


Tayesin, I very much appreciate you sharing your thoughts, and apologies for any inadvertent assumptions concerning the New Age.

I suppose I tend to use the category "New Ager" as a bit of a catch-all when it comes to many of the modern theologies that seem to have sprung from the traditions of India, but you're certainly right to make distinctions, and obviously the typical New Age "religion", isn't much different from other religions when it comes to serving the Almighty. The Almighty Dollar that is (as my grandfather used to put it!).

I appreciate you clearing up the issue of reincarnation when it comes to animals. I was pretty sure that the more enlightened thinking of today must have turned away from that. I absolutely agree with your characterization of that old Hindu system as just more people-control. Whether it's someone threatening hellfire, or another getting you to conform so you do not become an "untouchable" in your next life, it's all the same thing, taking advantage of the unknown, and painting it with dark colors for those that refuse obedience. Sad.

I liked your story of your pony, animals are indeed self-aware, and their being should be accounted for in any comprehensive belief-system. I have had the luxury of enjoying horses in the past (only a dog today), and the horse, for anyone that has been around them, is a most sublime creature. They are far more sensitive than their large size would suggest, being able to detect the weight of a fly that has landed on them. No doubt, none of this is surprising to you, but the contemplation of animal life isn't so common as it may have been in earlier times.

Do humans generally think way too small? I absolutely agree. Probably any belief-system we could imagine is going to fail in a thousand ways. Of course, we all have a paradigm, whether we call it that or something else. I would like to think that I try and keep the door always open a bit. Even when I've studied a matter, and come to various "conclusions", I try to remind myself that a younger "me" once held conclusions that today I may see as false, or not as comprehensive, etc.

I may not believe in reincarnation, but I also intuitively feel that "one" short life (sometimes VERY short!), somehow doesn't cut it. At the moment, I don't particularly feel any need to "subscribe" to the most popular ideas about the afterlife, but I do feel that at least there "should" be an afterlife. Not terribly "satisfying" perhaps, but to go further at this point doesn't make much sense. As I often say, I await further information!

Thanks for your thoughtful insights. I certainly enjoy reading your posts.

JR

this is completely mad, I just definitely believe that there wasn't anything before this life, nothing after all. Life is just about an evolution process where we all have a chance to contribute, the things that stays on earth are the things we do, not even our thoughts.

reply to post by masqua

New Age/Old Age... is there a difference? Our theologies are always evolving and yet we hold onto the most ancient ones as if they were the most important thoughts we've ever had. New Age is an amalgum of faiths from the pre-historic, throughout the time we've recorded up until today and still we muse upon what might still come to us in our dreams.

...As for Karma... there is an immediate return for doing good things and an equal, but opposite return for doing bad things. What comes around, goes around and you don't need to be buddha to figure that one out.

Thanks masqua, appreciate your point of view.

Tayesin made some clarifications too regarding New Age, and I hope to take a bit more into consideration when it comes to this popular "label", but being an "amalgam" as you say, I think it may never be precise enough to make everyone happy.

My particular use of the term simply denotes what I see as it's primary traditional roots, that is, in Hinduism. I'm not sure the term is any more useful than "protestant", but somehow, we use such general terms nonetheless, in the absence of anything better.

As far as karma, yeah, we all have some experience of things coming around, but from my perspective, there's precious little "justice" in the world, and I think the popular notion of karma is supposed to more or less "account" for the good and the bad, if not in this life, then in the next.

Not sure exactly what you mean about "immediate" returns, or "equal" for that matter...

Things do not appear that way to me as I look out onto the universe, at least looking at the surface of things. Perhaps you are alluding to a "spiritual" dimension here, or your faith that things all work out in the end, etc., but the old-fashioned "Problem of Evil" remains unsolved, last I heard.

JR

PS: Love your paintings!

Three days ago I convinced myself I was St. Germain. I'm a truthseeker.

I have thought about this question for a very long time now, even before I joined this forum. I have dabbled into philosophies such as Cynicism, Stoicism, and have taken to heart quotes from Socrates written by Plato in the Apology of Socrates

"The unexamined life is a life not worth living...."
"... I know that I don't know."


And to be honest, to this day I really have no idea of who I really am.

Not knowing who you are anon is probably knowing a whole lot.

hmm, there is truth to what you say. Not Truth with a capital T but, ehh It makes sense lol. Either way though, im in a period of my life where I am just completely lost. Things that I thought were true, were not. Things that I enjoyed to do, I do not anymore.

Perhaps its because I have depression and I have stubbornly refused to seek professional help or take medications or perhaps its because of the philosophies I have dabbled in. Or both? I dunno.

All I know is that I have been developing my ability to control my emotions that's about it. Its not perfect but, its not a pleasant feeling.

reply to post by anon102


I hope you find yourself my-friend ....
Good luck on your journey!

Z

I remember a number of past lives quite clearly. Both as a human and as my spirit origins being which was a large veloci-raptor type being that came here riding my dragon (hence the name). In one little snippet, I remember hanging on for dear life as my dragon twisted and turned thru the clouds.. some of which were thunderheads. The dragons do have a bit of a cruel sense of humor.. half his fun was that it was scaring me out of my wits! *lol*

Anyway, I am quite sure that all of us have lived many many times... the guy who said 21 times may be only counting his lives as a human. A huge number of us aren't originally human though; there are soo many species of aliens out there who have been around so much longer than a mere 21 lifetimes, and I would say, short of the dragons, they all have representatives here in our racial unconscious because members of their species now reside in human bodies. So the chances of him only being around for 21 life times is pretty small. Even the true humans have had 300,000+ years of reincarnating under their belts.

And of course, most of us get belittled and shamed out of remembering our previous lives.. called liars and story tellers... on top of the fact that I can see that we were genetically manipulated by the greys to not be able to remember them clearly anyway. Feel free to read some of my other threads for the reasons.

Also, since all time is 'now' in the racial unconscious (where all our memories of other lives are stored), we can 'remember' future lives if we desire, but I think most of us aren't really wanting to. Even as most of us have no desire to know the time and place of our deaths albeit it isn't really all that bad since we will just reincarnate again, no big deal.

Annoying mostly because you have to go thru that arm waving, can't move or talk, or take care of yourself phase where you are WAY too vulnerable to being abused by those entrusted with your care. We do, however, choose our families because of the challenges they provide which help us learn our spiritual lessons. Or not. Depending on our ability to figure all that out.

reply to post by DragonriderGal


I believe I choose them to be my family....I realize for me on earth right now, they are the right ones....Have you ever strayed from your destiny ? If yes...Did your life fall apart?

Originally posted by zbeliever
reply to post by DragonriderGal

 

I believe I choose them to be my family....I realize for me on earth right now, they are the right ones....Have you ever strayed from your destiny ? If yes...Did your life fall apart?

edit on 2-4-2011 by zbeliever because: (no reason given)

Well, I don't think you ever really 'stray'. Each life has it's own lessons, some of which are to make sure that isn't the way you want to go. You can really only say 'yes' if you really can say 'no', and those lives are part of the reason you will 'instinctively be able to say 'yes', because on a spirit level, you know the results of saying 'no' and don't like them. Or vice versa.

And yes, those people you meet and 'know' although you don't know them are fellow spirits that you've traveled with thru time. I'm a bit out of my loop because I had some issues to resolve with those in my family this time, and so many times I've met people who felt more like my 'family' than my actual family members. I always wondered about that, and why I felt soooo different than my siblings and now that I remember past lives, it totally explains it.

I think that is what I like best about being able to access the racial unconscious (where I'm getting most of my information); for the first time everything makes sense.

reply to post by zbeliever


Thank you Well over a month after the fact, still, thank you for the welcome

reply to post by EttaDiem


I reread your original post..I'm very glad I did.
This thread means alot to me, because many people seemed to write from their heart about their beliefs and why.
I want to tell you I understand what you are saying about the last moments of life.I was able to hold both of my grandparents hands at the time they departed from this world. Plus I am a Lpn that has worked in nursing homes and the best way to explain it ,to me, is you are no longer animated...

I explained it once to my children this way:
When a light bulb is on you can see the light.When the light goes out the electricity that ran the light is still there it is just used to run something else...

I hope this helps
Thank-you
Friend

reply to post by alejogn

I agree with you. I think the ultimate destiny of humans is to become a kind of collective. The reason I say this is because we do not survive death. There is no reincarnation. To invest in ourselves is foolish because we will die and everything that we were will die with us. We should invest in our society and our world because they will outlast ourselves. It's vain to get caught up in our body or mind. But we still might need to invest in our self to help the collective.

I think that evolution is trying to find a balance between the individual self (so that the person can make choices and remember information) and the collective (the part that actually survives). Each person is like an ant. The collective is our society, our world. Evolution is trying to figure out how much 'self' we require. Even an ant has some self. Intelligence is trial and error.

Let me put it this way: without our self, there is no collective. Without agents or actors, there is no greater society or world; a self is required. But too much self is wasteful. We need just enough so that we're able to react, respond, remember and so on.

How do things change? Brute force computation. That's what creates all of this, I believe.

Everything is brute force computation? Even intelligence, the one thing that seems so magical to us? Yes. I think that even our universe is brute force computation. There're probably countless universes. The conditions that govern survival will have a large impact on what exists and what does not. The fact that we're alive proves that our universe has made some good choices - if we judge good choices as choices that create intelligent life. This also means that the conditions for survival of universes at least allows for one instance where a universe produces intelligent life.

To imagine brute force computation, just imagine a lot of dumb ants that make dumb choices. By blind luck (and some actual but slight cleverness) some of the ants make good choices. These good choices get copied by other ants. Eventually, the collective copies this and most of the ants are adopting this new good choice. The ants who make bad choices are less likely to survive and thus less likely to get copied. In any case, the collective can appear to be intelligent, but that doesn't mean ants are especially intelligent. I think that, broadly, all life is like this, even humans. Even our universe is like this. Each individual actor in a collective has some measure of intelligence, but the superior intelligence is the collective itself.

Yes, I'm comparing humans to ants. I'm comparing our society (our world) to the ant collective. The primary method of learning is trial and error - creativity and random chance and memory are key factors. Creativity is simply changing what is seen or experienced to something new. This could be randomness in the mind of the actor. Random chance is a change to what is seen or experienced that results from something -outside- individual actors or agents - like a change in the wind. Technically, I do not see much difference between them. Then, of course, all of htis needs to be stored. Conservation of energy allows for that. It's a kind of universe memory.

i dunno

reply to post by zbeliever


I would say a DRAGON of the LOVE/good breed. Why I dont even know? Maybe because I like them but not like NATAS dragon either. The GUARDIAN TYPE as I do try to protect ALL I LOVE mentaly physically spiritually.

I would say a roaming energy form? Why , because of the ways I interact w/ other energies. And when I encounter negative energy I find some way to absorb/eat it, usually. When I encounter positive energy I try to assist it or feed it.

A wild/lost SPIRIT because of how I view things here there and beyond. Lost because 1 doesnt feel WE are ALL home?
HEAVEN soldier. Why because I war for the Creator.........

Be well

reply to post by zbeliever


I wish I knew who I was in the life before this one.....although....there is this say....be carefull for what you wish for.

I consider myself a reasonable good person but I am afraid to find out that I turned out to be a heartless NAZI or other person that abused or maltreated other persons because of my power over them in my previous life.

Do you know by any chance if there are people who confessed and know that they were such a person...?

Do you think that your life now is a lesson and that this lesson is related to your experiance of the previous life?

While I am at it......were do you think all those billions of souls come from?