Christianity: A Few Points and Questions

Hello ATS


For the past few years I've been researching mainstream religion and ancient mythology. Whilst studying the old and new testament I've found a number of discrepancies that i can't help but question.

(1) How many gods are there?
Throughout Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Samuel, Judges, Psalm, Zephaniah, Jeremiah, John there's mention of other 'Gods' yet on multiple occasions 'God' declares that he is the only god.

[Genesis 1:26]
And God said, let us make man in our image.

[Genesis 11:7]
Let us go down, and there confound their language.

[1 Chronicles 16:25]
The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

[Exodus 22:28]
Thou shalt not revile the gods.

[Exodus 18:11]
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

[Exodus 15:11]
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

[Exodus 23:13]
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

(2) In modern Christianity the old testament has taken a backseat to the ever popular New Testament probably due to the preaching of hatred, intolerance and bigotry on 'Gods' part. I don't say that lightly, and i suppose i am only judging your god by my understanding of morality so I'll cite some verses that have solidified my view of the Christian God.

(a): How can Christians pick and choose what part of the Bible they believe in? According to the bible that's a punishable offense. Shouldn't you condone Pedophilia, Child Abuse, Rape and Slavery as God does?

[Numbers 31:17]
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

[Deuteronomy 22:13-21]
A marriage shall be considered valid only if the wife is a virgin. If the wife is not a virgin she shall be executed

[Leviticus 20:9]
If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

[Leviticus 20:13]
"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

(Just a couple there, i don't have time to cite them all)

See: The Bible Also Says for a detailed list of relevant biblical verses.


(3) How do you account for God's personality transplant that occurred between the Old and New Testament?

(4) The Old Testament condemns Homosexuality and is a basis for the majority of homophobic bigotry in modern Christianity. The New Testament says little to nothing about Homosexuality and anything that is said is open to interpretation. With that logic in mind why aren't you endorsing slavery, genocide and rape? Why aren't you killing your children in punishment for insubordination? Your god condones it! You probably don't have a problem when it comes to making the lives of homosexual people intolerable, do you? That's hypocrisy!

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c4342f860922.jpg[/atsimg]
Above: Everything that is wrong with the world

(5) From Kings to Fishermen the authors of the scriptures that make up the bible are rarely called in to question. What gives these people credibility? If tomorrow I claimed that I'd been speaking to god for a couple of weeks and tomorrow posted a New Testament 2.0 would or would you not assume I'd been abusing solvents? (Stay tuned for my tomorrows post, here's a preview )

(6) When is humanity going to realize that religion and peace can't go hand in hand?

Ronald Reagan often called religion the world's mightiest force for good, "the bedrock of moral order." George Bush said it gives people "the character they need to get through life." This view is held by millions. But the truism isn't true. The record of human experience shows that where religion is strong, it causes cruelty. Intense beliefs produce intense hostility. Only when faith loses its force can a society hope to become humane.

The history of religion is a horror story. If anyone doubts it, just review this chronicle of religion's gore during the last 1,000 years or so

Read More >>

Peace
- Ellis

The question i have, and it relates to more than christianity.
If the temple mount were to be bombed with say a nuke and got irradiated, would that be the end of the world?
Or would the worlds life be extended past the point where the contamination cleared?
Could this prove or disprove some religions?

reply to post by g146541


Not quite sure i understand your question mate, could you rephrase?

reply to post by YouDeserveToKnow


Hi You,

S&F for all that research.

Here is my position, which I state all the time and people who know my posts will heave a huge sigh and skip past it.

My belief is this:

The bible is a pack of lies - maybe there are a few forewarnings, but as it was recorded by a lot of unreliable people I really don't believe most of it.

Jesus Christ has such a bad press because a lot of the people who call themselves Christians are not Christians.

Basically, I believe that what Jesus taught - love, forgiveness, gentleness, compassion - is what we should be living by, and we, as humans, are definitely not living by this creed.

And before anyone asks, I believe that whether Jesus is real or not, we should try and live like this.

reply to post by YouDeserveToKnow

How many gods are there?

From a Christian's perspective, one God (big "G"). There's no count of the number of "gods", because the term is kind of pointless -- there are all sorts of "gods" referenced in the Old Testament, like Baal, but whatever they might have been, they're not on "God"s level.

Because you don't seem well versed in Christian theology, I won't try to explain the Doctrine of the Trinity to you, but it's a reasonable explanation of a triune being, and sort of deals with those issues like "let us make man in our image". Per the passage in John 1, Christ existed as the word of God before creation, and all was created through him, so even at that point, God using a plural form to describe himself makes sense.

How can Christians pick and choose what part of the Bible they believe in?

Actually, "cherry picking" is more commonly used by atheists, who take Old Testament passages out of context in the belief that it disproves God or Christ or something. Christians generally view the Bible as a holistic document that tells the story of God's relationship with the Jews (the Old Testament) which foreshadows the coming of Christ, and then the story of God's relationship with all of us, through Christ (the New Testament.)

The all-encompassing message of the Bible is one of God wanting a personal relationship with us, of wanting us to make good choices, and the consequences that happen when we do not. It's summed up in Christ's two commandments of "Love God, and love your neighbour as yourself." If you threw out everything else, you'd still have the means to be reconciled to God, per Christ's own words in that declaration.

How do you account for God's personality transplant that occurred between the Old and New Testament?

Once again, your fascination with a fundamentalist reading of the Old Testament is something that you should take up with the Jews, the authors of that text, rather than Christians.

The Old Testament condemns Homosexuality and is a basis for the majority of homophobic bigotry in modern Christianity.

As an orthodox Christian, I have nothing against homosexuals, and support full equality for them (and everyone, for that matter.) If homosexuality is a sin in God's eyes, then that's between a person and God, it's none of my business. But how I treat them as a person, that's covered under the "love your neighbour as yourself" bit above.

When is humanity going to realize that religion and peace can't go hand in hand?

Another erroneous and shallow conclusion. I would point you to The War Audit, a study which was funded by the BBC a few years ago to determine how much of a role religion plays in motivating war.

I'll summarize the findings for you -- in all the historical wars that were studied, a scale of zero to five was applied, where zero meant religion played no part in it, and five meant that religion was the sole reason for the battle. In only three instances, the much heralded Crusades, the Muslim conquest of Europe, and the Protestant wars of the 16th & 17th centuries, was a score of five assigned. So, in all history, only three wars that can be blamed on religion and nothing else.

On the contrary, over 60 percent of wars rated a "zero", meaning that there was no religious factor AT ALL, and in only ten percent of the wars studied was the score a three or higher.

So those are the facts, contrasted with your opinion. Still think that religion and peace can't go hand in hand?

reply to post by YouDeserveToKnow


Religion and peace can go hand in hand. Fundamentalist monotheism however...

Originally posted by g146541
The question i have, and it relates to more than christianity.
If the temple mount were to be bombed with say a nuke and got irradiated, would that be the end of the world?
Or would the worlds life be extended past the point where the contamination cleared?
Could this prove or disprove some religions?

Well, it would be the end of a great deal of fighting over it, and perhaps then we could get to cleaning up our planet, instead of fighting over a small, worthless piece of real estate. The "Rock" was an Annunaki landing center way back when, I would say when they return they will land in the same place. Wouldn't it be great if a Giant Pyramid were to land there, crushing the Mosque, and then the beings get out, and tell humanity the true story of their origins? It would certainly be the end of Christianity and Islam.

reply to post by YouDeserveToKnow


Before i start please know i am not afiliated with any religion... that being said.

1. Theres one God, but many that like to act as his spokesperson. On the other hand anything can also be your God, for example...TV can be the God your worship if you chose.

2.

(2) In modern Christianity the old testament has taken a backseat to the ever popular New Testament probably due to the preaching of hatred, intolerance and bigotry on 'Gods' part. I don't say that lightly, and i suppose i am only judging your god by my understanding of morality so I'll cite some verses that have solidified my view of the Christian God.

(a): How can Christians pick and choose what part of the Bible they believe in? According to the bible that's a punishable offense. Shouldn't you condone Pedophilia, Child Abuse, Rape and Slavery as God does?

Most of the bible are stories my friend, the horrible attrocities in the bible were not condoned by God, they were condoned by men with agendas. See if you can find any of these condoned by Christ...

3.

How do you account for God's personality transplant that occurred between the Old and New Testament?

God didn't change, the book wasn't written by God...so mans understanding of God has evolved over the years and even to this day. There are people now with a far better understanding of what God is compared to 2000 years ago, but we also have the people that believe this book was written by God and thus must be take litterally on all accounts. Well all we can do is hope one day they understand.

4.

The Old Testament condemns Homosexuality and is a basis for the majority of homophobic bigotry in modern Christianity. The New Testament says little to nothing about Homosexuality and anything that is said is open to interpretation. With that logic in mind why aren't you endorsing slavery, genocide and rape? Why aren't you killing your children in punishment for insubordination? Your god condones it! You probably don't have a problem when it comes to making the lives of homosexual people intolerable, do you? That's hypocrisy!

Homosexuality is a part of nature, it exists in all forms of nature and thus is also a part of God... Dispite popular belief God loves every part of his creation without exception.

5.

From Kings to Fishermen the authors of the scriptures that make up the bible are rarely called in to question. What gives these people credibility? If tomorrow I claimed that I'd been speaking to god for a couple of weeks and tomorrow posted a New Testament 2.0 would or would you not assume I'd been abusing solvents?

Do you really believe God just stopped talking or "inspiring" people as soon as the NT was written? My friend i can show you "inspired" messages from God and angels from recent times, even from just a few years ago. What makes you think these are any less correct then what you read in your bible?

6.

(6) When is humanity going to realize that religion and peace can't go hand in hand?

Religion is a cancer in our world, it does nothing but divide our species which limites us from our true potential. Until the day comes where there is one religion which teaches Spirituality and NOT fairytales....Religion will always be the great seperator and has no place in a peaceful world.

reply to post ?by adjensen


Which passages are taken out of context? The homosexuality as a sin? Nope, that's in. Death to those who curse parents? Check. Infant murder? Oh dear, here it is. I would say it seems you are not versed in your own bible, which your priest will be thankful for, because we all know they "cherry pick".

Foreshadows the coming of Christ is one way to put it, but the factual way would be foreshadowing of the savior, of which there were many, that is correct, documentation show that there were many saviors in Palestine preaching that they were the son of God, so again, learn your history before you use your "faith" to claim something. And don't give me crap about Jesus riding in on an ass, as the "words long written down" say, because there is ZERO amount of evidence that this happened, not that it would prove jack anyway, but is a key reason in the jews not accepting Jesuit as the savior, and i mean the Muslim looking Jesuit, not the white one.

Did i just see you talking about the authorship of the old testament? Is this a joke? The translation is pretty much a rape and bears very little resemblance to the original manuscripts. There you go again, showing what very little research you have done. I have no doubt you believe the bible was written by God, or "through God", well, lets see more proof that "faith".

Homosexuality is none of your business? You dismiss the old testament, even though it is the law of God, and no where is it said to be disregarded and thrown by the way side. You MUST put homosexuals to death, at least that is what your bible tells you, but lets blame the jews for that also, shall we? Like the Vatican blamed them for murdering Jesus. The nazi supporting vatican, who literally threw their support behind Adolf Hitler.ri

A BBC study? You're not a christian really, are you? Just a troll, right?

I can't even be bothered anymore, there is no reaching you, and sadly there is no reaching any children you have/may have, so saving them while you abuse them with religion and repress them sexually.

Read your bible. If English was good enough for God, it's good enough for you, right?

*facepalm*

Can someone Jewish answer your questions? I would like to spice or kosher spice this thread up.

reply to post by adjensen


A superb post, adjensen... I gave you a star and would give more if I could!
Vicky

Originally posted by JesuitIscariot
The nazi supporting vatican, who literally threw their support behind Adolf Hitler.

That is a slanderous lie, and it's possible that you know it is. Shame!

Originally posted by JesuitIscariot
A BBC study? You're not a christian really, are you? Just a troll, rig

Because he quotes the BBC he's not a Christian? Where's the logic behind that assertion? I watch and listen to the BBC for preference and I am a Christian. What's your issue with the BBC, or is it simply that you find you have no answer to him?
Vicky

reply to post by Vicky32


The Vatican and Hitler signed a concordat and offered support, Hitler was raised a roman catholic, and during his generation, hatred for jews was taught in catholic schools since they, you know, killed Jesus. You should try research the vatican before you tell me I'm lying. And if that doesn't disgust you what about the vatican/irish government documents showing that the vatican has moved pedophiles from church to church and demanded the Irish government keep it between them, so as not to reveal the horrible depth of this sickening abuse, which we already know anyway, the stereotype of the catholic priest didnt come from nowhere. It came from people like the priest they moved THREE TIMES after he sexually abused a child. THREE TIMES. The vatican and it's christian (catholic, same thing) minions have been leeching power for centuries.

How can the fact that they've decided what is put into their bible not concern you? They have many original manuscripts that they don't put in, what do they behold? And since they were intended for humans from God, doesn't that make them enemies of God? Or are they full of more bull#? Or do they not even mention Jesus Christ, like the dead sea scrolls, the oldest records we have of the bible don't mention Jesus Christ. Did you know that? Or don't you look?

Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu is also now a saint, and for what? Telling the poor to embrace their poverty while she smiles and takes money from murderers, which she then gives to the vatican so they can build more churches. Why not hospitals? Which is actually what the donations were for, at least the ones from good people. I don't know what the plan was when she took money from genocidal dictators. Why didn't the poor she was "helping" see this money instead?

What do i have against the bbc? Here's just one reason, of which there are many. Said documents i talked about regarding the child abuse scandal, where is the major bbc coverage? Where is the major mainstream news coverage? All's i see is real journalists like Johann Hari demanding the pope be arrested because of these horrible crimes, but the pope wouldn't care for him anyway, because he likes penis, and other men who like penis are to be put to death. There blood will surely be upon them. The words long written down say.

Like i told the other guy, It's impossible for me to reach you, you're already gone.

Proof?

A religious institution responsible for massacres around the world and the torture and execution of jews long before Hitler, of which you seemingly know nothing of, keeps religious texts locked away that were intended for the bible, and christians/catholics accept this. Why? Because most of them don't know anything beyond their "faith", blind "faith" to a book that was written by, and torn apart by men.

Word of God? I'm sure your God can see into the vaticans vaults, and he also remembers the burning of sacred texts that they deemed not to of been written with influence from God. Perhaps there wasn't enough slaughter in them. Then again, they should know by now that christians either don't bother reading the bible, or they don't care that God openly commands the murder of children.

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."

How glorious.

reply to post by YouDeserveToKnow


I suggest you read "A history of God" by Karen Armstrong... She does a great job of detailing how the scriptures have been reinterpreted since the beginning... In each different phase, these documents have been re interpreted, re written, etc to reflect changes in values and priorities in thhe Hebrew tribe and those who came after...

Its not a matter of picking and choosing... Its a matter of understanding the history of this religion, and you won't find that information in many of it's adherents today, unless you look to seminary

reply to post by HunkaHunka


Undoubtedly just another interpretation, there's never anything concrete with Christianity. I guess that's where blind faith comes in.

Originally posted by YouDeserveToKnow
Hello ATS

(1) How many gods are there?
Throughout Genesis, Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Samuel, Judges, Psalm, Zephaniah, Jeremiah, John there's mention of other 'Gods' yet on multiple occasions 'God' declares that he is the only god.

[Genesis 1:26]
And God said, let us make man in our image.

[Genesis 11:7]
Let us go down, and there confound their language.

[1 Chronicles 16:25]
The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

[Exodus 22:28]
Thou shalt not revile the gods.

[Exodus 18:11]
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

[Exodus 15:11]
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

[Exodus 23:13]
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

If you're into it, you should read Hypostasis of the Archonsl
as well as
On The Origin Of The World

It describes the origin of the demiurges that created the physical world. You'll see a lot of parallels to Genesis and they both attempt to explain some logical reasoning behind the multitude of gods mentioned in the old testament. They were deemed heretical, though, so by reading them you might burn in hell.

Originally posted by JesuitIscariot
You should try research the vatican before you tell me I'm lying.

Lying or mistaken, the effect is the same. Really, your mind is closed, slammed shut and triple-locked.
The BBC is more reliable than any other news source in the world. As I said I listen to BBC radio every day, and if you did (which I assume you don't, as an American) you'd know that they are fervently anti-Papist, and anti-Christian generally.
You seem to have mistaken me for a Catholic which I am not, I am an Anglican (similar to but not the same as an Episcopalian.)
Here's a wee link for you to be going on with, but I suspect you'll feel too frightened of it to read it.
Hitler was not a Christian, let alone Catholic

You've chosen the wrong person to try to snow with stories about censoring the Bible, as I probably know more about it than you've been told by Dawkins or in your case, Sam Harris!
Vicky

reply to post by Vicky32


YOU are lying or mistaken. Read Mein Kampf. Printed about 10 years before the concordat, in which Hitler CLEARLY outlines his hatred of jews, and yes, to the murderous level. Listen to Hitler's speeches. Why is he always referring to a higher power? He WAS raised a roman catholic, this is absolute fact from any hsitorians. But you believe the bible to be factual history, which negates any opinions you have. Learn the history of the massacres of jews by catholics, the torture and the outright #ing disgusting evil. Why else would the pope, who was a member of the hitler youth (ANOTHER FACT!) have apologized and cleansed the jews of all wrong doing in Jesus death. Why was a curse passed down on every jewish generation for centuries, but now it's not? If you're not a catholic then i implore you to stand up against this criminal organization (of which i explained the crimes of in this, and the previous post). Make a stand. Make your religion good and purge out the masochists and the horrible texts which call for murder of sinners.

As a British taxpayer, I pay for the BBC with my taxes, handed to them as government funding. What the hell would you know about the BBC suppressing information? Where is the real coverage of those two wars? The BBC is part of the war effort, why else would they ignore leaked documents showing massacres and terrorism on children. You listen to the radio? Anti-Christian? Actually, they are just in the midst of the governments "not every muslim is the same" craze, and thus many christians of my country have turned on them. They're only looking out for their own self interests, as are the other major powers in Britain, namely Murdoch, who has much sway with your own country (US or NZ, i assume you love both), too.

Wow. You actually brought up 2 popular critics of religion and pioneers of popular evolutionary and humanist beliefs. Hurray for you.

I don't read Harris though. Dawkins, yes, absolutely. Great man.

I also have my own opinions, based on facts, as you do, based on your bible, so don't criticize me you child murdering supporting masochist. Read the bible, tell me I'm wrong.

VIVA LA EVOLUTION!

P.S: Enlighten me with proof of what i said is false. Because the documents and speeches traced back to the 20's/30/s and 40's reveal what i said of Hitler to be truth, and trace back the vaticans horrors too. How can you just brush aside all the slaughter in your religion in my previous post. Thats the thing christians are good at, not even truly addressing what you say.

reply to post by Vicky32


Your link is biased btw. That is not historical fact of anything. You need historians of the nazi party, hitler and ww2. Not someone who announces their belief and has already made up their mind before they even write the lies down.

And since i forgot to even address the link, Hitler believed in God (NOT the official churches idea of God) and was taught hatred of jews from his roman catholic upbringing.

Catholic schooling was once only filled with pure hatred. They have apologized for this, so how wasn't it exactly? Was the vatican lying when it gave apologies for things?

DOH.

reply to post by SorensDespair


haha, I think i'll take my chances, cheers for the information.