Creator or Chance Accident - I will prove this to you!

The Bible suggests that there is more to our being than this very short time we spend on earth. In relation to what we know of how old the universe is, what are our lives? Meaningless. Imagine there is no God. Next imagine that the sun supernovas. What was it all for?

Argumentum ad populum, is a fallacy of error in belief which can be defined. The Bible is belief from the fruit it bears. You can test all things based on what you reap from what is sown. The popular ideas that arrive from the various philosophies of men bear the fruit of unrighteousness, so we are able to define them by this result. The Bible bears the fruit of Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

What does it mean by no law? The law is for the unrighteous. There is no need for law when mens' actions are geared toward others. This is altruism and not egoism. Objectivism is the lie of self fulfillment above all else. This is the argumentum ad populum of error.

The fruit of the world is unrighteousness based on self interests. This is the fruit of the counterfeit truth, leading to the need for laws. You can know them by their fruit. Listening to this spirit (of the world) leads to the need for law to control the actions of men against each other. Check the Drudge Report lately? We see this error played out each day in the world at large. More problems create the need for more oppressive laws.

Listen, you can argue these points all you want and we will simply put the truth there for you to see. You can continue stumbling over the worlds arguments for truth, or you can see the truth plainly from observing the lessons that God has given to us in the Bible. Either way, you will learn. The world is toil in learning. Walking with God is walking a path of joy. The choice is yours.


reply to post by madnessinmysoul

Well said. There is purpose to this education. There is testing with this education. There are grades. God is the refiner's fire. We are attending a class that has the aim of graduation. I look at this life as a story that God teaches us. Instead of simply telling us the story, He places us in the story, as characters in the story. He directs the scenes and plot points. I merely act a part to the best of my ability. My unique part adds or detracts from the overall performance. At the end of the play, the director reviews my character.

Confucius said, "I hear I forget. I see I remember. I do and I understand."

The best education practices involve doing. Learning is cooperative.

Originally posted by graphuto
The Bible suggests that there is more to our being than this very short time we spend on earth. In relation to what we know of how old the universe is, what are our lives? Meaningless. Imagine there is no God. Next imagine that the sun supernovas. What was it all for?

Conciousness can't be measured or quantified by your highly regarded Scientific Theory.

reply to post by graphuto


So...you're appealing to the idea that one idea is more comfortable than another? So what? Also, life is its own reward, you need to learn that. If you need an eternity of unjust reward to make your life worthwhile then you really are doing something wrong.

reply to post by graphuto


I'm sorry, but the idea of 'consciousness' is highly disputed amongst cognitive scientists. The cognitive sciences are full of all sorts of debates over such words that people such as yourself throw out as if they have a definitive definition.


Oh...and why does evolution have to quantify consciousness? It deals in population genetics.

reply to post by SuperiorEd

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Argumentum ad populum, is a fallacy of error in belief which can be defined.

Yes, and you invoked this and several other fallacies in your post. But you're not here to actually address anything I said, you're just going to ramble on as if I said nothing in your typical fashion.

The Bible is belief from the fruit it bears.

...so centuries of ignorance and barbarity?

You can test all things based on what you reap from what is sown.

...except that you can't. Not all positive actions have positive rewards and not all negative actions have negative rewards. Better products are sometimes beaten by inferior products in the marketplace due to better advertising, great movies sometimes flop at the box office, etc.

The popular ideas that arrive from the various philosophies of men bear the fruit of unrighteousness, so we are able to define them by this result.

I'm sorry, but which philosophies would these be? I'm minoring in philosophy right now, I'm really interested in hearing which ones you're talking about. Or do you not know what a philosophy is?

The Bible bears the fruit of Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law."

Intolerance, fear, hatred, persecution, vitriol, violence, etc.

Where's your evidence that the Bible bears these fruits? What about the passages in the Bible that condone and praise the rapacious genocide through Canaan?

What does it mean by no law? The law is for the unrighteous.

...the majority of laws do not deal in moral matters. And what it means is there isn't any law against good things.

There is no need for law when mens' actions are geared toward others. This is altruism and not egoism. Objectivism is the lie of self fulfillment above all else. This is the argumentum ad populum of error.

What? Objectivism has nothing to do with the argumentum ad populum. I disagree with it for a variety of reasons, but the argumentum ad populum is arguing that something is valid or has more weight because a lot of people accept it.

The fruit of the world is unrighteousness based on self interests.

Tell that to the secular charities, the non-Christians who have done great things in this world, etc. And all of the wonderful scientific advances.

This is the fruit of the counterfeit truth, leading to the need for laws.

What does this have to do with such laws as...zoning? There are a lot of laws that don't cover behavior.

You can know them by their fruit. Listening to this spirit (of the world) leads to the need for law to control the actions of men against each other.

You do realize that a good portion of the Bible is law, right?

Check the Drudge Report lately?

Nope, I hate the bias of that site.

We see this error played out each day in the world at large. More problems create the need for more oppressive laws.

You do realize that this has absolutely nothing to do with the thread and is as hollow an argument as I've ever seen, right?

Listen, you can argue these points all you want and we will simply put the truth there for you to see.

Ok, prove it. I want proof. The truth is something that can be independently verified. The Bible? Not entirely true. Some of the books have some truth to them. I'm not going to argue against "love your neighbor" or "lying is bad" or those sorts of things....but a lot of the stuff, even the morality, is horribly wrong.

You can continue stumbling over the worlds arguments for truth, or you can see the truth plainly from observing the lessons that God has given to us in the Bible.

Yes...like the lesson to stab infants through the heart or to sacrifice your firstborn daughter to please God with the smell.

Either way, you will learn. The world is toil in learning. Walking with God is walking a path of joy. The choice is yours.

So instead of actually proving anything...instead of providing any evidence...you're just asserting your position without so much as an argument?

And if you're going to reply to me, please bother actually addressing points I make in that post.

The proof is that for over 2000 years the Bible has stood strong, and has been used as a guideline for life by countless numbers of people.

The proof is that every single thing you say in regards to science, etc, can be refuted by the Word of God.

The proof is the very fact that you're arguing so hard about it.

For the fool has said in his heart, there is no God.

Once we have quoted you scripture after scripture there is just nothing else to say really unless you want to believe, and theres even a verse about that. The groundwork is faith. I know you'll scoff and tell me you don't want it, but I'll pray for you sir.

Do you know where the wind begins to blow and why? No, but you know it's there because you can feel it.
Also, I CAN throw out the idea of conciousness. You certainly can't prove it, yet here you are, forming thoughts.

Originally posted by graphuto
The proof is that for over 2000 years the Bible has stood strong, and has been used as a guideline for life by countless numbers of people.

So has Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy, it doesn't make them true, though,

The proof is that every single thing you say in regards to science, etc, can be refuted by the Word of God.

How, exactly? What examples do you have of science that is refuted by the bible?

The proof is the very fact that you're arguing so hard about it.

It's proof that people in the 21st century are capable of being as ignorant as the people from thousands of years ago,

Once we have quoted you scripture after scripture there is just nothing else to say really unless you want to believe, and theres even a verse about that. The groundwork is faith. I know you'll scoff and tell me you don't want it, but I'll pray for you sir.

Why Christianity? Why not Judaism? Islam? Sikhism? Greek mythology? Roman mythology? Like Zeus? Jupiter? etc.

Do you know where the wind begins to blow and why? No, but you know it's there because you can feel it.

Well, wind is real and can be verified independently. It doesn't require faith.

1 Corinthians 1:21

For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

Like I said, at this point there is no more that I can say.

Romans 14:1
As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

reply to post by graphuto


Why the Bible? Why not other religious texts? The Koran came after the Bible, so surely that's the most "up to date" word of God?

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

John 6:63

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.


John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.


Because other religions don't stipulate that they are "THE ONLY WORD" and "THE ONLY WAY TO GOD" and the other texts aren't packed with things to say in every situation.

Originally posted by graphuto

Because other religions don't stipulate that they are "THE ONLY WORD" and "THE ONLY WAY TO GOD" and the other texts aren't packed with things to say in every situation.

I think the 1 billion Muslims on this planet would disagree with you there. Also, the Jews don't buy the New Testament one bit so you're stuck in the middle on that one.

The real kicker is fulfilled prophecy:

(This is all taken from www.reasons.org...)

The acid test for identifying a prophet of God is recorded by Moses in Deuteronomy 18:21-22. According to this Bible passage (and others), God's prophets, as distinct from Satan's spokesmen, are 100 percent accurate in their predictions. There is no room for error.


(1) Some time before 500 B.C. the prophet Daniel proclaimed that Israel's long-awaited Messiah would begin his public ministry 483 years after the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25-26). He further predicted that the Messiah would be "cut off," killed, and that this event would take place prior to a second destruction of Jerusalem. Abundant documentation shows that these prophecies were perfectly fulfilled in the life (and crucifixion) of Jesus Christ. The decree regarding the restoration of Jerusalem was issued by Persia's King Artaxerxes to the Hebrew priest Ezra in 458 B.C., 483 years later the ministry of Jesus Christ began in Galilee. (Remember that due to calendar changes, the date for the start of Christ's ministry is set by most historians at about 26 A.D. Also note that from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D. is just one year.) Jesus' crucifixion occurred only a few years later, and about four decades later, in 70 A.D. came the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus.


(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.

(6) Mighty Babylon, 196 miles square, was enclosed not only by a moat, but also by a double wall 330 feet high, each part 90 feet thick. It was said by unanimous popular opinion to be indestructible, yet two Bible prophets declared its doom. These prophets further claimed that the ruins would be avoided by travelers, that the city would never again be inhabited, and that its stones would not even be moved for use as building material (Isaiah 13:17-22 and Jeremiah 51:26, 43). Their description is, in fact, the well-documented history of the famous citadel.

(7) The exact location and construction sequence of Jerusalem's nine suburbs was predicted by Jeremiah about 2600 years ago. He referred to the time of this building project as "the last days," that is, the time period of Israel's second rebirth as a nation in the land of Palestine (Jeremiah 31:38-40). This rebirth became history in 1948, and the construction of the nine suburbs has gone forward precisely in the locations and in the sequence predicted.

reply to post by graphuto


Also, never have I found a subject where people argue so hard against something they don't even believe in.

reply to post by graphuto

BIBLE= BRAINWASHING. I do think Jesus was a great teacher but no more the son of god than you or I. There was no proof one way or the other.

Originally posted by SuperiorEd
Conclusion:
We are the products of a loving God who has created more than a few planets with life. Take a look at the sky some night and ask yourself, "Does God have the experience needed to teach us the procedure for inheriting the universe and eternal life?" Can a program be saved, copied and placed in an updated computer? Is God capable of doing this through salvation from this reality?

Thread Title: "Creator or Chance Accident - I will prove this to you!"

"I will prove this to you!"
"...prove..."

Ok, here is the thing.

I don't mind your beliefs, I don't mind your religion.

I am a Taoist/Pantheist/Shaman myself.... But I am also a Logical and Scientifically minded person.

And, as such, I do not ask anyone else to believe what I believe about the nature of reality, the universe, god, whatever... because *AS* a Logical and Scientific minded person, I realize that I cannot PROVE what I believe.

The reason that I cannot prove it, is because the word PROOF is defined THUSLY:

Proof: any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something.

I know for a fact that I have no Solid PROOF that my beliefs are true.... and I am adult enough to realize that just because *I* believe in something, does not automatically mean that I can point at a flower, or a bird, and claim that it is "Proof" that my untestable beliefs are even REMOTELY true.

Because proof is Physical, it is Tangible, it is *REAL*, and it means A WHOLE LOT MORE than "I just really really want to believe that it is true!"


If I punched you in the Face, or beat you with a 9-Iron for an hour and a half... and you told the police....

Do you think they would believe your word on who attacked you, if you merely gave them a lecture on your feelings at the time of the beating?

Do you think they would prosecute me, if your "Proof" consisted of a crude crayon drawing buried in the dirt for a few weeks, and then unearthed?

Do you think they could ascertain the truth of your claims of guilt on my part, with a strongly worded lecture on what THEY owe YOU, or your GOD?


If I want to PROVE to you that gravity Exists... I'm not going to lecture you on what your spirit does in its free time that makes it attracted to the Earth Mother Gaia...

I am going to push you off a building, and allow you to *OBSERVE* the REALITY of Gravity.


I'm going to say this once, so that you will be absolutely sure to understand me.



Do not use the word PROOF when debating Religious ideals, for doing so *PROVES* that you don't know what PROOF means.

Thank you for your cooperation, and have a Nice Day.

Originally posted by graphuto
reply to post by graphuto

 

Also, never have I found a subject where people argue so hard against something they don't even believe in.

I have no problem with belief, but when that belief ignores evidence from the real world then that is delusion.

reply to post by ErtaiNaGia

Do not use the word PROOF when debating Religious ideals, for doing so *PROVES* that you don't know what PROOF means.

And this is what it comes down to. NOTHING SuperiodEd posted could even be remotely considered "proof", it's nothing but him stating his BELIEF...so basically it's preaching. Zero objective evidence to support his claim, and much of the subjective evidence he claims support his ramblings are demonstrably wrong.

I don't mind people having beliefs, but they look so incredibly silly if they try to convince people their beliefs are facts or proof

"God is almighty and created the world!"
"How do you know that?"
"Because the bible says so."
"How do you know the bible is truth?"
"Because the bible is the word of god!"
"But how do you know that?"
"Because the bible says so."

Circular reasoning at its best

Faith in God to save can only be faith. Proof that God is more than an alien parading as a deity is faith. We look at other ideas in relation to this part of faith. My faith comes out in the thread, no doubt.

As for proving that we are created with design, I have done this on this thread. You might need to go back and read it in its entirety. There is no question that we are wearing a bio-mechanical suit. There is no question that life requires information that could not have arisen by chance. Information is the root proof we need to verify that life is not a natural fluke of nature. Nature is governed by laws. Again, another proof. Life flows against the current of entropy. Again, this is proof. Reproduction is consistent among all forms of life and in all aspects of nature where information is present. This is proof. Examples like the fig wasp verify design and negate evolution. There are over 900 species of fig wasp and only one fig wasp for each of the over 900 species of fig tree. The oldest fossil we have is 35 million years old and it is identical to the fig wasp of today in every way. So is its tree. This is design. This is proof.

I am just repeating the post here but the overall picture continues to deny a chance accident. We are designed and highly ordered in a universe that is in a constant movement increased entropy and disorder.

Give me the sequence of events that moved inanimate substance to contain encoded information; moved it to reproduce; moved it to generate by fractal mathematics and you have an argument against the proofs. But, before you do this, you need to explain the governing laws of the universe and the immovable force that animates the movable to motion. Otherwise, the evidence is so strong for design from a creator that you have NO ground to stand against the assertions here.

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by ErtaiNaGia

 

Do not use the word PROOF when debating Religious ideals, for doing so *PROVES* that you don't know what PROOF means.

And this is what it comes down to. NOTHING SuperiodEd posted could even be remotely considered "proof", it's nothing but him stating his BELIEF...so basically it's preaching. Zero objective evidence to support his claim, and much of the subjective evidence he claims support his ramblings are demonstrably wrong.

I don't mind people having beliefs, but they look so incredibly silly if they try to convince people their beliefs are facts or proof

"God is almighty and created the world!"
"How do you know that?"
"Because the bible says so."
"How do you know the bible is truth?"
"Because the bible is the word of god!"
"But how do you know that?"
"Because the bible says so."

Circular reasoning at its best

edit on 19-4-2011 by MrXYZ because: (no reason given)