trying to understand karma...

Originally posted by EmeraldGreen
reply to post by PoorFool

 

ok, we get your angle already.

take some moments alone to gather your thoughts about this very very complex issue.
try to take things beyond good and evil. # happens, to nearly everyone. do we deserve it?
can you see how meaningless this question is?

Yes, it is meaningless. That's my point. Karma is not real. I've thought about it for a long time.

The only way Karma can be real is if there is no free will.

If you kill someone, they deserved to be killed. If someone kills you in turn, you deserved it. And so on.

This is just how I see it.

Originally posted by polarwarrior
reply to post by PoorFool

 

Pessimist much?

You could say that no soul is ever unfairly dealt anything that they didn't ask for.

edit on 16-3-2011 by polarwarrior because: (no reason given)

Same thing.

I think negative karma is garnered when you make a choice or an action that causes someone to suffer. However, if this suffering that has been caused is for the betterment of more people then the those who have suffered you can have positive karma.

I think the intentions of the action are sometimes more important then the actions themselves. For instance, if you were to give someone a jacket to keep them warm it would render positive karma. If you gave someone a jacket because you no longer wanted it, it may be neutral. But if you give someone a jacket and it helps them, but you did so because you knew you'd get something out of it and also knew it would bring others harm, it would be negative.

Basically if you want only positive karma help others when you can and at least do no harm(cause no suffering).

reply to post by PoorFool


Karma is real, but sometimes it maybe only be retrospective or personal. Sometimes the only negative karmic impactic is the suffering of oneself or others. Karma isn't necessarily an eye for an eye.

The Kharma you face now is what was set in motion in the previous incarnation. Your actions you take now is what sets Dharma in motion. So your choice is based on building good or bad Dharma which ultimately will manifest as Kharma in the next incarnation.

You cannot do good in order to get good, not immediately anyways. If that were the case there would be too many insincere efforts of goodness and that is bad Kharma.

So if you find yourself stumbling, it is up to you to make a better choice so as not to play-out any bad Kharma; it is all about good and bad ultimately and it isn't hard to know when we are doing something wrong. Equally we all instinctively know right from wrong we just are too short-sighted to know that we may be building bad Dharma which will lead to Bad Kharma.

However, we can always take a different approach, we simply choose to be better than what we are. We choose to open our hearts and our minds. It is all about the Dharma! Which means that we benefit by our actions in our next incarnation; an incentive of sorts!

reply to post by polarwarrior


~Zen~

Hyakujo's Fox

Once when Hyakujo delivered some Zen lectures an old man attended them, unseen by the monks. At the end of each talk when the monks left so did he. But one day he remained after the had gone, and Hyakujo asked him: `Who are you?'
The old man replied: `I am not a human being, but I was a human being when the Kashapa Buddha preached in this world. I was a Zen master and lived on this mountain. At that time one of my students asked me whether the enlightened man is subject to the law of causation. I answered him: "The enlightened man is not subject to the law of causation." For this answer evidencing a clinging to absoluteness I became a fox for five hundred rebirths, and I am still a fox. Will you save me from this condition with your Zen words and let me get out of a fox's body? Now may I ask you: Is the enlightened man subject to the law of causation?'

Hyakujo said: `The enlightened man is one with the law of causation.'

Originally posted by captainbitter
reply to post by PoorFool

 

Karma is real, but sometimes it maybe only be retrospective or personal. Sometimes the only negative karmic impactic is the suffering of oneself or others. Karma isn't necessarily an eye for an eye.

Fair enough.

Just treat people or "things" the way you would want to be treated...Positive aura, and keep your mind constantly focused on whats going on around you.

Just think of it in terms of the basics - evolution, reproduction, and survival. Wasteful activities are generally called "desire" and pointless activities are generally called "stupidity".

Originally posted by PoorFool
If Karma is real then why do innocent people suffer and evil people prosper?

Firstly look at it this way, evil people may prosper financially, but are you really sure that they are not suffering. If you as a drug addict does he suffer? He may reply that he doesn’t, but is he being sincere or is he even able to be sincere? So you are pre supposing that they do not suffer and then on the other side of the coin I am sure innocent people suffer, but how innocent are they really? You say you are a poor fool but is this true? Are you suffering from the projected Karma of your parents? If this is not true then you are suffering something that is false and that may be your present karma until you change it. Karma can be reshaped, it’s up to you. That is why Karma is a great teacher, one thing that it essential for change is forgiveness. This is the magic wand that removes all kinds of Karma.

Originally posted by PoorFool

Originally posted by EmeraldGreen
reply to post by PoorFool

 

ok, we get your angle already.

take some moments alone to gather your thoughts about this very very complex issue.
try to take things beyond good and evil. # happens, to nearly everyone. do we deserve it?
can you see how meaningless this question is?

Yes, it is meaningless. That's my point. Karma is not real. I've thought about it for a long time.

The only way Karma can be real is if there is no free will.

If you kill someone, they deserved to be killed. If someone kills you in turn, you deserved it. And so on.

This is just how I see it.

Originally posted by polarwarrior
reply to post by PoorFool

 

Pessimist much?

You could say that no soul is ever unfairly dealt anything that they didn't ask for.

edit on 16-3-2011 by polarwarrior because: (no reason given)

Same thing.

edit on 16-3-2011 by PoorFool because: (no reason given)

I think you are a bit confused with all due respect. This is not about deserving this or that. Karma is the Universal Law of Cause and Effect. It's all about freedom of choice. Its all about responsibility. Every action that you take carries a consequence. There is no "good or bad" as things are just percieved that way. You make a choice and it carries a consequence. The thing is that we need to take responsibility for our choices and stop blaming things outside ourselves (like the "devil", "bad luck" and such)

Karma-yoga do good works and be unattached to the fruits of one's labor. Also known as enlightened self-interest. Live by the golden rule and have compassion.
Buddha wanted a way for mankind to escape the wheel of constant birth and rebirth. How can we balance the karma of many lifetimes and not make karma in this one?
The Master Kuthumi said "Pray without ceasing"

reply to post by ldyserenity


Your post made me giggle, and Ive thought the same thing so many times. Just think how much karma George Soros is making.....

It may seem to us as if people like Soros are getting away with horrible actions, but our Creator has given us all lifetime after lifetime to make amends, bend the knee, and would He not give Soros that same opportunity? Would He be a Just God if he only gave some people time to get it right?
King James Bible
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?


People like Soros seem to have so much money they appear to be able to use money for karma dodging.

As a further elaboration, I believe that karma is fundamentally based on what is called the "double standard" - for example, when you do something to someone else, that you would not like done to you. So, if I were to make a clone of you, and get it to treat you like you would treat others (without it realising that it is you), then if your reaction is positive (i.e. forgiveness, turning the other cheek) then you are on the "good" karmic records, however, if it is not, then you are on the "bad" karmic records. The issues of what is good and what is bad stemms from what we would like to have done to ourselves, there could be people that enjoy something that others don't, and hate somethings that others love. It all comes down to how another person would behave if you were them, given your actions towards them. If they choose not to honour "free will" then thier reaction will be an exact response to your own "karmic profile" - so, if you love yourself, if you would not harm yourself if you did things to yourself that you would normally do to others, then the reaction of beings that are not in the domain of "free will" will be, in effect, a mirror of your actions.

The problems arise in this world for two simple reasons:

1) Ignorance of the true nature of our actions and intentions (i.e. repression/suppression of our emotions and inner thoughts) - the result is dishonesty.
2) The ability to choose how to react to people - i.e. if a negative person should be feeling a sense of fear, then a free-will individual will basically prevent them from being fearful, in one sense protecting them, in another sense blinding them.

The last issue is what defines the connection between people, what is the connection that allows us to know each other, as if we were each other? This is difficult to explain, as it is the fundamental connection that binds the entire universe, it is basically God, or consciousness. When people lose sight of themselves, they often become so delluded as to what their true nature is. For example, one person might take advantage of the world of free will to create a sense of intelligence and knowledge, when in actual fact, without freewill, s/he would be rather dull and unintelligent - basically, a self-hatred that caused the individual to borrow or take from the intelligence of others. Its not to say that this individual cannot learn and become intelligent, rather, it is more a matter of the ego of having the image of being intelligent. For this reason, we are all basically entangled with each other, thus the means of escaping, is to refine our behaviours so that we are always honestly expressive of our true individuality, and honestly expressive of the individuality of others. For example, when you look at the eyes of an animal - you see yourself reflected in its eyes, and likewise when it looks at you, it sees the same thing - so, if you were the animal, and you are in a positive mood, and if the animal was you, and it would also be in a positive mood, then the interaction is positive. However, if you fail to accept the animal as being a part of yourself, or, if the animal was you and at the animals level of consciousness you are a different being to that which you display to the world, a negative or distorted interraction would occur.

I quote the OP:

Or, say in the case of a drug dealer, he may see himself as providing a service, and his 'customers' may see it as such also. But to others, this may be terrible, and many may agree that this is an "evil deed"

Suppose one of his desperate clients he made addictive shoots him. wouldn't that be karma?

reply to post by PoorFool


Perhaps the opposite is the case, karma exists because of the illusion of free will. Perhaps what we call free-will is basically the ability to impinge upon the true free-will of others, provided that each party chooses to participate in the "game" as it were. Thus, in a non free-will world, we would all essentially be true individuals.

Karma is a really easily misunderstood concept.
In simple terms, doing stuff that you feel is wrong or immoral will make you unhappy. Also, if you are well known as an untrustworthy person, in time, the only people who will hang out with you will be people for whom that isn't a problem. (liars, cheats, thieves etc).

That's how karma works, like a behaviour feedback system.

reply to post by SystemResistor


and if this world is actually a non-freewill world?

You made little sense in that post. I understood your point. but it made little sense...
Karma exists within a realm of infinite interconnected variables and possibilities. you cannot separate cause and effect from the cause and its effect.

pinning cause down to freewill and effect also down to freewill makes no sense when you realise they* are one and the same
*they - yes, all three*

Originally posted by SystemResistor
reply to post by PoorFool

 

Perhaps the opposite is the case, karma exists because of the illusion of free will. Perhaps what we call free-will is basically the ability to impinge upon the true free-will of others, provided that each party chooses to participate in the "game" as it were. Thus, in a non free-will world, we would all essentially be true individuals.

edit on 18-3-2011 by SystemResistor because: (no reason given)

The goal of all types of yoga is Union with the Divine. Perhaps loss of awareness of our Creator is a type of karmic recompense. Does not our Creator want us to remember Him?

reply to post by EmeraldGreen


Worst of all

I cannot yet decide which causes more of a head-ache

your post
or
whether this whole discussion has
become absurdly profound or profoundly absurd!

Originally posted by PoorFool

Originally posted by polarwarrior
reply to post by PoorFool

 

Past lives? Seriously?

Seriously.

Understandably karmic debts wont make much sense to you before the realization of re-incarnation.

Then if karma and past lives are real, every single murder and genocide that occurs can be justified as "they deserved it".

Yes...

Can you not see the state of the world?

Have you considered what we have as our recorded past.....